State police swiping motorist debit, prepaid cards to seize money.

originally posted by: SlapMonkey
a reply to: DeathSlayer

This is horsepucky at its finest.

Do they forget that we have the right to be secure in our possessions until we are charge, tried and convicted?

This will never hold up in court, unless this story is missing something.

I'm guess the ACLU won't even mess with it, though, unless it's shown to disproportionately affect minorities.

You have the right to be secure in your possessions. Your possessions have no such right. What happens is the property gets charged with a crime, and then the property has to be defended in court. And before you argue the Constitution here, the very people who wrote the fourth amendment used asset forfeiture during their presidencies.

a reply to: Shamrock6

My source is personal, so I cannot discuss the details, but I 100% assure you on everything that I hold dear that this is a regular practice that is very common.

It is not paid as salary, it is given in the form of a bonus.

a reply to: DeathSlayer

Just look below this sentence to see exactly what you should say.

...............................................................

originally posted by: Atsbhct
How are they bypassing PIN protection?

That would be an excellent question, whether it is a prepaid debit, normal debit or credit card. If the police have a reader that will process payments without a PIN number, signature or the confirmation number on the back of the card, that means the technology exists for identity theft and the police have it, the actually identity theft machine.

Cheers - Dave

a reply to: Winstonian

So is my "source." Because I've never received a dime from any forfeiture, nor has any officer I work with.

My agency used recoveries from the last two years to buy body cameras.

originally posted by: Aazadan

You have the right to be secure in your possessions. Your possessions have no such right...

Bags, Purses and Briefcases: generally, courts have been willing to uphold a person's expectation to privacy in their personal belongings carried in a bag, purse or briefcase. This has even included a somewhat see-through bag carried by a passenger on a public bus.

Wouldn't that mean searching a wallet or briefcase, finding money and seizing is a violation.

Are you saying they do it and a person must prove/claim the illegal seizure?

a reply to: _BoneZ_

And my point remains that this puts the onus on a motorist to somehow prove to a trooper that their prepaid cards aren't full of drug money. Debit card, prepaid card, whatever.

Again, that's not how the burden of proof is supposed to work. Infowars tweaked the wording ever so subtly. Don't disagree with that at all. But it doesn't change that whole burden of proof thing.

a reply to: Shamrock6

If someone came up to me and said a uniformed armed gang is going around terrorizing motorists and stealing their credit and debit cards, I'd think that the Bandidos or Angels have shifted gears in their racketeering business. Imagine my surprise when I discover that the gang is actually government law enforcement officers and that this is a new law daddy government has imposed upon it's worthless citizens.

a reply to: Sublimecraft

Then imagine your surprise when you learn it's far from new.

a reply to: Winstonian

Sign me up! . I'd love to go around looking for drug money.

it sounds like a serious conflict of interest to me as well as a violation of the constitution.
I hope this gets shot down by the supreme court before it goes nationwide.

a reply to: Shamrock6

Oklahoma Police are now able

Using a new device called an ERAD, or Electronic Recovery and Access to Data machine, Oklahoma Highway Patrol officers can now swipe debit or prepaid cards

Key words in bold which led to my comment. Anyway, I'm glad you were the first to weigh-in on the thread, when it comes to subject matter of this nature, I genuinely appreciate your input.

a reply to: Shamrock6

Who knows, could be wrong. How about the feds? I am sure you work with them regularly. Ask around and report back. I am sure you would be a better source of information.

The body cameras are a good investment, but I wonder how much of that cash should have been returned to it's rightful owners.

a reply to: Sublimecraft

Well if we're gonna split hairs, the ERAD is a new "tool," not a new law

My point was simply that this crap has been around since the 80s and ramped up in the early 00s in a big way. This is just the latest in a string of hot garbage.

originally posted by: roadgravel
Wouldn't that mean searching a wallet or briefcase, finding money and seizing is a violation.

Are you saying they do it and a person must prove/claim the illegal seizure?

I don't know what is/isn't a violation, however if the officers suspect that cash or any other item is being used to facilitate a drug transfer they are allowed to confiscate it. My guess is that if they put forward the argument that you're paying for drugs using a prepaid card or even a debit card, they're allowed to take it from your wallet and confiscate the funds until you can prove otherwise.

I don't think they can do the same with credit cards though since it's not your funds.

john oliver killed this. its outrageous your only recourse in some states is going to the same people that want your money

HBO, bad words n stuff

originally posted by: DeathSlayer

Police in Oklahoma are now able to seize money from motorists even if they don’t have physical cash on them – and even if those people are merely suspected of a crime. Using a new device called an ERAD, or Electronic Recovery and Access to Data machine, Oklahoma Highway Patrol officers can now swipe debit or prepaid cards if they suspect a driver of obtaining money contained in their bank accounts illegally.

We’re gonna look for different factors in the way that you’re acting,” Oklahoma Highway Patrol Lt. John Vincent told Oklahoma News9.com. “We’re gonna look for if there’s a difference in your story. If there’s someway that we can prove that you’re falsifying information to us about your business.” If drivers can prove, to an officer’s satisfaction, that the cash is legally theirs, they can keep their money. All of this without an arrest, charge or warrant – an unconstitutional procedure that strips citizens of due process and civil rights, says Oklahoma Senator Kyle Loveless.

- Op Source

What if you come across as nervous(anxiety disorders, other) putting you on the radar for being guilty of something, etc. What if it is their cash but difficult to prove it for some reason/s. These and other issues may not even be addressed.

The Senator is on the right path here.

“You have effectively a way of instantly seizing a digital account from a traffic stop,” Henderson said, according to OklahomaWatch.org. “That’s a capability I have never seen before.”

Citizens really need to join together to stop this-write officials, file a petition against the head of the Dept., to even demonstrate about it. As once it's accepted it will happen in growing number of places.

I would say don't admit to having cash / gift cards on your person / in the vehicle. I would also say, contrary to a Supreme Court ruling allowing pretextual stops, that some states still restrict what an officer can investigate when performing a traffic stop based on a traffic violation. Some states do not allow an officer to extend an investigation into areas outside the reason for the stop. If there is evidence of another crime then they are covered.

Also do not confuse a traffic stop with an investigative stop, which should also be disclosed upon contact as to why you are being stopped. An investigative stop- is a traffic stop based on something other than a traffic violation so the situation is somewhat different. An investigative stop has a higher criteria requirement than a normal traffic stop.

Possession of large amounts of cash in and of itself is not a crime unless you have a certain amount (last I checked $10,000 and you are entering the US and you fail to disclose it).

An officer cannot search your car unless by consent, a search incident to arrest (and even that is restricted now by supreme court ruling), or contraband in plain sight. If the vehicle is abandoned or located in a manner that causes obstruction to traffic / real property the normal 24-48 hour tags are not required. When towing a vehicle it can be inventoried so if contraband is located during that you might have issues.

If they request a consent search you have the right to decline. If the officer has probable cause they will explain it and search anyways. If they don't they might try to whole "if you have nothing to hide" bs. Do not surrender your right to say no.

As a side note as I have seen idiots try and argue with an officer that they dont have to provide identification on a traffic stop and try to invoke their 5th amendment rights. Identification, also known as pedigree information, is not something you can refuse unless the contact is voluntary. If you are pulled over its a technical seizure under the 4th and ID (pedigree info) must be provided (traffic stops are not considered a voluntary contact).

The easiest way to find out while not driving is to respectfully ask the officer if you are free to leave. If the officer says no, you are being detained and the contact is not voluntary.

As for your 5th amendment its not like what you see in the movies. You will be notified by being read your Miranda rights. That occurs when you are in custody and you are going to be asked guilt seeking questions. A traffic stop, with the exception of high speeds / C and I, DWI/DUI, are not criminal (misdemeanor / felony) but infractions. Trying to pull a 5th amendment in that arena will not help you. For a misdemeanor / felony crime you will know the difference.

I don't recommend being confrontational and remember roadside is not a proper venue to argue the points. When in doubt talk to your lawyer. Law Enforcement is prohibited from providing legal advice to individuals we are dealing with so again, consult a lawyer. Laws / case law will vary from state to state so the info above is in general. You must check the laws / case laws for the state you reside in for more exact information. Again when in doubt talk to a lawyer.

While I don't think its right to lie to law enforcement if the officer stops you for a traffic violation and starts into the realm of money and how much you have... personally speaking its none of their business so my response will be just my bank card.

Civil forfeiture is one of those areas that should be way more restricted in the realm of law enforcement. I say this because generally speaking civil process / civil actions is the purview of the Sheriff's department and the courts. While I understand the need to disrupt drug operations I do not agree with a blanket policy that seems geared more towards profiting from anyone who has cash that can be painted as a suspected drug user / mule.

Law Enforcement officers who engage in the profit aspect instead of the actual criminal aspect should rethink their choice in careers. There was a reason the US fought the Nazi's and it was not to adopt their actions under the guise of drugs.

/mic drop
/steps off soapdbox
/end sermon

a reply to: Shamrock6

"Trust us...we'll know who the bad guys are without anything but our LEO mind-reading powers, and we promise PROMISE not to steal money from good guys"

originally posted by: whitewave
There are RFID wallets that prevent scanning/confiscating the contents of your wallet. I'll be getting one tomorrow. This is grossly unconstitutional and will not stand in Oklahoma for long.

Won't help one tiny bit here. They're going to get your wallet by force, take your cards by force, and scan them with a magnetic stripe reader. If you say "no", then you'll get a tasering and probably a beating until you understand who's boss.