The $15 Dollar Wage vs The Skilled Labor Market

a reply to: neo96

What is the solution by conservatives?
They do worse than bandaids. They stab the free market in the guts with policy. But hey you can pretend it's all the liberals fault.

Even though you can't point to any conservatives with economical policy being promoted by the party. I think Rand does his job for the most part but that's about it.

You can't let the market decide wages if your tariffs are way out of Ballance.

You can't let the market decide wages when the cronies make regulations and taxes to stifle bussiness. Yeah conservatives love doing it too politically speaking.

We can offset smaller incremental min wage increases with corperate tax breaks.

We can tax the top earners to lower taxes for business as well.

a reply to: Aazadan

i do, too.

i work hard enough i should be able to do small things, like pay for my oldest son to have a modest car for graduating college. i do things that few people i know can do, and the money I earn still doesn't go far enough for me to be able to take a trip to see the birth of my sisters child in Austin.

The problem is a rotting dollar. We bailed out all the "too big to fails", and dluted the economy. I fail to see how increasing minimum wage by doubling it would be beneficial to anyone.

originally posted by: neo96
I think we should let the market dictate wage, and benefits since it use to be the fundamental basis for that word of yesteryear of what it use to mean.

The market isn't some overarching mythical construct that fairly determines things. It is not God. The market is nothing more than a series of 1 on 1 contract negotiations. I read a few career forums on Reddit, and the #1 type of topic that comes up is when someone learns the range of salaries in an office. In any group of 10 workers there's a few average earners, a few way above average, and a few way below average. All at a similar skill level with the same job duties. This basically comes down to a persons ability to negotiate rather than the supply/demand value on their labor... a non market force.

If you want a purely "market" based labor system, then what you're going to have to do is remove the taboo we have on discussing compensation with each other. Markets can't exist when hidden information is present, they can only function fairly when pricing information is well documented, readily available, and known by everyone.

Additionally, it means admitting that some jobs just aren't going to be economical. If a job doesn't pay enough to support someone, it's simply not going to get done and we'll move more towards kiosks. Oddly enough a UBI is the sort of subsidy that would allow for the removal of a minimum wage, and let market forces start to dictate everything.

a reply to: JBDTheBeast

What most people miss is just how many labor union contracts are negotiated with the minimum wage as a floor for setting their own pay scales.

If a minimum wage increase occurs, lots of union workers get a contracted wage increase at their next contract negotiation.

Unions are going to argue for the minimum wage increase as a means of both increasing their own monetary power via dues and to increase their power by pointing to others what money they can get for their workers.

originally posted by: Sargeras

originally posted by: bigfatfurrytexan

originally posted by: Sargeras

originally posted by: TinFoilSuit
a reply to: JBDTheBeast

Try feeding your family by hunting and fishing or living on "public" lands? Try growing a garden in your front yard? Try building a business without paying the state its "fair share". When you have to ask permission for everything from feeding your family to building your own business, that is not freedom in any sense of the word. When everything you have worked for is subject to the will of an arbitrarily enforced law or the "good graces" of the state, you are a slave to them. Follow the rules and hopefully you will not see the whipping post, though a great many will still get caught up in "the land of the free" with the highest incarceration rates in the world.

Sorry, but from my perspective, that is not freedom by any stretch of the imagination.

Well if business types like BFFT didn't intentionally screw over everyone they meet for profit or dump toxic waste into rivers, none of those regulations would exist.

or you could take trogolodyte types like sargeras, who intentionally make up crap as ad hominems to bolster his weak argument.

Im still waiting for you to back some of this up. You can't. Because you are making it up to throw your temper tantrum that you have no real argument to make against me. Its ok....the butt hurt stops eventually.

Yes because "profits above all else" (this is in fact BTW) isn't what made the EPA and workers rights a thing right?

If not for people like you that will screw anyone over for a buck or stain landscapes for profit, not one of these regulations would exist.

Stop being a worthless life sucking piece of crap for profit, and see if things don't reverse.



There is no valid reason that you deserve more value from my wages than I do.

Except you place money above all else.

This is a sick ideological thought process, that places you above others simply because you parasiticaly placed your worth above everyone else.

You don't deserve more profit for my labor than I do.

Look snowflake, you aren't so special I should work to make you rich.

I deserve( not entitled to, because I earned it through labor) a decent share of the profits earned by my laborers!

Why is this a non sequitor to you?

Nvm, I forgot, you are entitled because you had money to begin with....

How can you sleep at night you POS?

When you put up your own capital to start a business, you can then dictate wages. If I as a business owner risked my own capital to start a business and decide to hire you, I'm paying what we both agree is a fair wage relative to the labor performed. My business's profit margins are of no concern to you as you are not an equity owner.

It is IRRELEVANT how much money I make off you. You either want the job at X wage or you don't. If you don't you can work elsewhere.

The market determines the value of a job, not what you think is fair.

Over time, some jobs begin to lose value. I'm sure typewriter repair men worked really hard and did good work. But guess what, there is very little demand for typewriter repair men. The fact they put in long hours, studied, or did whatever is TOTALLY IRRELEVANT to the value of the work performed in the market.

a reply to: neo96

while I like Libertarian ideals, it just won't work. Under libertarianism we would have the most polluted water. you can't say that consumers will dictact behavior, because consumers are stupid. Flat out, unabashadly stupid. Consider that half the population has an iQ below 100....do you really want to allow a "vote with your dollars" approach with them?

Half our country currently supports a candidate for president that has a real chance to be in prison before their term. Getting screwed is an American past time, like baseball.

a reply to: TerryMcGuire

How about this?

It's a f***ing insult. I worked fast food in high school and determined that it was a crap job. I then applied myself to go to college so that I wouldn't be stuck working a crap job and could do something better and get paid commensurate with that level of education and ability.

Now you're telling me I shouldn't make more than the very job level I busted my @ss to not have to work at?!

originally posted by: bigfatfurrytexan

originally posted by: Sargeras

originally posted by: TinFoilSuit
a reply to: JBDTheBeast

Try feeding your family by hunting and fishing or living on "public" lands? Try growing a garden in your front yard? Try building a business without paying the state its "fair share". When you have to ask permission for everything from feeding your family to building your own business, that is not freedom in any sense of the word. When everything you have worked for is subject to the will of an arbitrarily enforced law or the "good graces" of the state, you are a slave to them. Follow the rules and hopefully you will not see the whipping post, though a great many will still get caught up in "the land of the free" with the highest incarceration rates in the world.

Sorry, but from my perspective, that is not freedom by any stretch of the imagination.

Well if business types like BFFT didn't intentionally screw over everyone they meet for profit or dump toxic waste into rivers, none of those regulations would exist.

or you could take trogolodyte types like sargeras, who intentionally make up crap as ad hominems to bolster his weak argument.

Im still waiting for you to back some of this up. You can't. Because you are making it up to throw your temper tantrum that you have no real argument to make against me. Its ok....the butt hurt stops eventually.

Lol, you are in fact the top 5% , you live in a fantasy world.

Is it so hard to put yourself into the place of 1/2 the workers in this country?

They work 40+ hours a week yet qualify for welfare, because losers like you "want more".

You already have many times more than any of your workers could ever get, but it's not enough, you need more because..... It does what but cost your workers the abortion to go to the doctor, buy a car, own a home, go to college.....

Just saying, you have more than enough already, but greed drives you to want more, just so people that need it can't have it.....

You are one of the worst types of people, those that enjoy watching "lesser " humans suffer just so you can get more.

I'm not even religious, but greed is the worst sin those just like you endorse it is sickening!

You got yours, what about 1/2 the population that won't have the chance?

Oh NVM, I get it, they can starve as long as you make enough to own your home and not even work while you ATS all day litteraly every day, but McDonalds workers better bust their assess for your lazy deserving ass right?

a reply to: bigfatfurrytexan

The problem is the rotting dollar? Inflation always happens. Always. You can minimize it or accelerate it.

Why do you think it's ok you get paid the same as a construction working decades ago?

When I did remodelling it just wasn't practical to keep a truck full of tools to loose money every week. So I started installing cabs. It made me sometimes 2k a week then the recession hit. I got screwed by several contractors as a sub.

Carpentry is an incredibly diverse set of skills. To be paid 15 an hour for carrying around 3 grand in tools and beating up your vehicle is absolutley rediculous. It's terrible in Texas where the politicians just let the illegals flock in.

How many times have you seen a whole Mexican crew without a toilet on site. I saw it all the time. Sometimes when I would try and find a little joint compound I would open a five gallon bucket of crap.

The problem is very complex and well beyound the dollar problem though that is an issue as well.

originally posted by: bigfatfurrytexan
a reply to: Aazadan

nothing is wrong with trying to improve the system.

sticking a band aid on it that actually hurts other people? what exactly does "improve" mean?

If we are trying to improve our economic system by just jacking up minimum wage, we are going to fail. And make things worse in the process. minimum wage should be adjusted to match inflation. maybe every 5 years, or whatever. But you don't just arbitrarily double it because it becomes fashionable.

No, we solve minimum wage etc forever.

Each worker gets paid 1/2 their value to the company.

Ends it all in one move.

It should be criminal to pay less than that, while you get paid for not actually producing crap but stealing production thus value from your workers.

a reply to: ketsuko

What about the thousands who had great jobs, had their own business and the political system destroyed the economy? What about states where there is not a strong labour market?

What about recessions, wars, tarifs etc that destroy jobs.

Those people deserve to have a decent wage even at fast food . In some cases that's the only work available. Especially if you have no income and are not one to just sit on unemployment.

a reply to: luthier

I just pray our justice system does the right thing here and doesn't bury it.

WHAT PART of this was confusing ?

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Enough with the GD 'conservative' political trolling already.

We can tax the top earners to lower taxes for business as well.

How about we try something NEW.

Like ending income taxes ALTOGETHER.

And.



The only thing TAXES and REGULATION do is destroy JOBS that create WEALTH.

But hey please by all means keep trolling with 'conservative' crap.

a reply to: Aazadan

It is not God.

Neither is the STATE.

Here's a thought.

After looking at over 50 years of government intervention in to business.

There are now more people broke, and dependent upon government than EVER.

So 'let's do the same thing over again and expect a different result. That is insane.

Wage increases just means more money for the state to blow. There is no real net benefit to the people.

The biggest losers are the people.

a reply to: neo96

It's not trolling I have just as much to say about liberals. You are the troll spouting party platforms.

The problwm with your ideology is it isn't based in reality. Not market reality. It's based on a very dated economic philosophy

You solution is hey let's hope everyone comes to their senses, all gets along, all does the right thing, and all legislate for the people

Every now and then do yourself a favor and check in with reality.

Conservatives and Democrats don't care about new businesses. They care about the donors on the established ones. Thats why they all make laws and regulations to screw the competition factor of the market.

I would love to live in a fantasy world without taxes. I would love to travel the universe too.

Neither is going to happen.

originally posted by: luthier
a reply to: ketsuko

What about the thousands who had great jobs, had their own business and the political system destroyed the economy? What about states where there is not a strong labour market?

What about recessions, wars, tarifs etc that destroy jobs.

Those people deserve to have a decent wage even at fast food . In some cases that's the only work available. Especially if you have no income and are not one to just sit on unemployment.

I see you several posts up there whining about a band-aid fix, but that is exactly what you are now demanding. That is all a higher minimum wage ever is.

It resets the economic floor and undercuts everyone else who managed to be a rung above where the new floor is at. It also causes ripples that serve to knock people off their rungs entirely so they aren't even on a rung while putting a whole new set of people on the bottom rung where had worked off of it before.

Congratulations! You've made even more people miserable like you instead of finding a way to help anyone, much less yourself, up.

a reply to: bigfatfurrytexan

while I like Libertarian ideals, it just won't work. Under libertarianism we would have the most polluted water. you can't say that consumers will dictact behavior, because consumers are stupid. Flat out, unabashadly stupid. Consider that half the population has an iQ below 100....do you really want to allow a "vote with your dollars" approach with them?

I think your selling your fellow Americans short there.

We have lived so long with an iron fist it's just an accepted norm.

Half our country currently supports a candidate for president that has a real chance to be in prison before their term. Getting screwed is an American past time, like baseball.

That what a $15 dollar an hour wage increase is.

People need to make more money so them evil corporations can make more off us!

The icing on the cake ?

The state gets more tax revenue to blow.

IT would be one thing to increase the wage, and decrease the number of people on social programs.

But we all know it doesn't work like that.

IT just means the minimum income requirements get raised.

a reply to: neo96

oh, lets not even get into how this "closes the loop".

step 1; take out loans to handle your financial crisis
step 2: repay those loans by printing money and decreasing the value of the dollar, so the overall impact is reduced
step 3: raise minimum wage to seal off revenue shortfalls after the dollar has been weakened

a reply to: ketsuko

I see you make a lot of religeous rants and this ideology is at odds with your Christianity.


You also are relying in an ad hominem to support your ideology.

Can you show models where off setting corperate taxes while raising minumum wage in a volunteer level is going to damage the economy?

I would love to hear in your wisdom.

originally posted by: luthier
a reply to: bigfatfurrytexan

The problem is the rotting dollar? Inflation always happens. Always. You can minimize it or accelerate it.

Why do you think it's ok you get paid the same as a construction working decades ago?

When I did remodelling it just wasn't practical to keep a truck full of tools to loose money every week. So I started installing cabs. It made me sometimes 2k a week then the recession hit. I got screwed by several contractors as a sub.

Carpentry is an incredibly diverse set of skills. To be paid 15 an hour for carrying around 3 grand in tools and beating up your vehicle is absolutley rediculous. It's terrible in Texas where the politicians just let the illegals flock in.

How many times have you seen a whole Mexican crew without a toilet on site. I saw it all the time. Sometimes when I would try and find a little joint compound I would open a five gallon bucket of crap.

The problem is very complex and well beyound the dollar problem though that is an issue as well.

inflation only always happens when you have a fiat economy. when you don't, you have periods of inflation and periods of deflation.

originally posted by: luthier
a reply to: bigfatfurrytexan

The problem is the rotting dollar? Inflation always happens. Always. You can minimize it or accelerate it.

Why do you think it's ok you get paid the same as a construction working decades ago?

When I did remodelling it just wasn't practical to keep a truck full of tools to loose money every week. So I started installing cabs. It made me sometimes 2k a week then the recession hit. I got screwed by several contractors as a sub.

Carpentry is an incredibly diverse set of skills. To be paid 15 an hour for carrying around 3 grand in tools and beating up your vehicle is absolutley rediculous. It's terrible in Texas where the politicians just let the illegals flock in.

How many times have you seen a whole Mexican crew without a toilet on site. I saw it all the time. Sometimes when I would try and find a little joint compound I would open a five gallon bucket of crap.

The problem is very complex and well beyound the dollar problem though that is an issue as well.

Just saying, back in 95 when I entered construction, Mexicans crap in "sheetrock" boxes, just so you know I am real they are 1' by 1' cubed, White box, blue letters.

I was making $2,000 a week in summer, now....

$13 to drive a fork truck.

They raped construction wages in the last 20 years of my experience.

Because "business says # Americans "

Thank folks like BFFT that think about profits above all else for screwing you.

His type loves illegals that undercut Americans, he gets large bonuses from highering them instead of us.

Money first!!!!!