The $15 Dollar Wage vs The Skilled Labor Market

a reply to: TinFoilSuit

Really? Other than committing crimes what am I not allowed to do....and just what am I being forced to do against my will?

the problem with this country: the proletariat are idiots. What they want: more money. How do they demand it? Pay increases legislated in Washington.

instead of studying the system as it is, and determining how best to exploit it to their benefit, they demand the system change for them.

What they will find is the same thing i found when minimum wage went from $3.15 to $4.25, then to $5.35, then $7.25.....all it does is adjust the bottom pay up to track with inflation. meaning, when you raise the bottom pay to $15/hour instead of $7.25, you double inflation instantly. and all that cash sitting in banks becomes worth less.

while it may screw the rich, it'll screw the middle class even more. Again.

a reply to: JBDTheBeast

I hear you. I was a cab installer, remodelling carpenter and worked in a production high end guitar manufacturer for years.

I was paid a whopping 15 an hour for the most skilled trade of guitar making i ever did and that was only because I had the duty of processing all the parts and appointments for the necks.

I don't think it's a good thing wages have stayed the same for skilled labour for about 30 years. My first apprenticeship I was trained by a guy 30 years older than me who started at the same wage in the 70's

We have ignored inflation by allowing uneven trade tariffs and using the CPI to judge inflation.

We needed to raise minumum wage yearly or bi yearly by cents over the coarse of decades.

The whole purpose of minimum wage was so people could pay for the basics. It's really pointless now because it is so far off

I think you could in a combination of offsetting corporate taxes (lowering) with the wage hike on a volunteer bases is a good start. You want to pay your guy 15 we will offset your bussiness taxes.

Second a tax for the upper tear to lower corporate taxes (rather than more benefits).

Give incentive to hire, create, and pay well.lwt the punishment come through market competition for hose who don't take advantage of the tax/wage offset.

originally posted by: JBDTheBeast
a reply to: TinFoilSuit

Really? Other than committing crimes what am I not allowed to do....and just what am I being forced to do against my will?

pay 20% of your lifes work in taxes to the federal government. and purchase insurance for yourself. so your paycheck is reduced before you ever even see it.

originally posted by: JBDTheBeast
a reply to: TerryMcGuire

You act like you couldn't just learn a skill and be your own boss...not everyone works for the man dude. Might I ask what you do for a living?

Sure you can. I'm retired now for 15 years. I was a sheet metal worker and apprenticed for 5 years at below journeyman wages. When I finally hit those wages they were 15 bucks an hour. When I retired 20 years later I was at 35 an hour.

I was fortunate to work in a situation where most of my contemporaries were content with exercising the skills they already had developed. I took it upon myself to train myself in close tolerance work, laying out and fabricating to .005 of an inch. I learned the algebra and geometry you mention along with complex lay out formulas. I layed out, fabricated and installed. I learned to weld a variety of metals. I venture that in the major metro area in which I lived, not even a hand full of metal workers had achieved my skill level. But even then, I was making exactly the same wage as those half my age with no where near my skills.
But what to do about that. My decision was to be happy at my work, and consider the exercise of my skills and freedom to develop as a craftsman a valuable perk. But in the end, I knew that I was expendable because sooner or later someone would come along and do it for less, or the robot would come and do it for much less.

So yeah, I was a slave, but I turned myself into a 'house slave"

originally posted by: JBDTheBeast
a reply to: TerryMcGuire

You act like you couldn't just learn a skill and be your own boss...not everyone works for the man dude. Might I ask what you do for a living?

Around 80% of new businesses fail in the first 18 months. Not really as simple as just learning a new skill and being your own boss.

a reply to: bigfatfurrytexan

I don't agree or think that's the only solution. The opposite also happens. Without raising min wage and using the cpi to gauge inflation we have set up a bad situation for the low wage earners. The only solution in your model is benefits.

originally posted by: bigfatfurrytexan
the problem with this country: the proletariat are idiots. What they want: more money. How do they demand it? Pay increases legislated in Washington.

instead of studying the system as it is, and determining how best to exploit it to their benefit, they demand the system change for them.

What they will find is the same thing i found when minimum wage went from $3.15 to $4.25, then to $5.35, then $7.25.....all it does is adjust the bottom pay up to track with inflation. meaning, when you raise the bottom pay to $15/hour instead of $7.25, you double inflation instantly. and all that cash sitting in banks becomes worth less.

while it may screw the rich, it'll screw the middle class even more. Again.

But 1/2 of the work force should just suck it and work themselves to death so those like you that are quite comfortable can not pay more?

It has been a decade at least since the same inflation you talk about made 1/2 the wages in this country entirely worthless!

Simple math problem

1/2 of all jobs pay what should be an illegal wage, those like you think that magically not raising wages solves this in some way, which is retarded, because without a raise it will be 2/3 within the next decade just because of inflation.

Maybe you like crime ridden 3rd world wages in America, but I for one do not.

Since the Nancy lefties won't close the border, there is no other option.

Pay more at McDonald's, or be forced to fight to defend your food daily in the near future.

It is litteraly this bad down here below your perch at street level.

It is a fact, a parent with hungry kids will kill you if they have to in order to feed their kids.

It is honestly approaching this point, right here in America.

In almost every political fight over the minimum wage, each party, for their own reasons, refuses to do a permanent fix by tying increases to inflation. Democrats like not fixing it because they like pandering for votes and using the GOP resistance ro min wage increases to hit them over head with at elections. The GOP likes to pander for money from the Chamber of Commerce at election time to fight wage hikes so doesn't want automatic increases either. I also like the idea of increases tied to inflation because it would force business owners to put pressure on the monetary authorities to keep inflation as low as possible instead of the current target of 2% which robs the average person of half their purchasing power over a lifetime of work.


I feel for most areas of the country the current wage is to low, but this is the responsibility of state and local governments to address.

originally posted by: luthier
a reply to: bigfatfurrytexan

I don't agree or think that's the only solution. The opposite also happens. Without raising min wage and using the cpi to gauge inflation we have set up a bad situation for the low wage earners. The only solution in your model is benefits.

Exactly!!

There is no other option.

They pretend that people don't starve to death while working.

But they only consider it work if you own a business where the boss keeps most of the money their employees labor creates.

In BFFTs model, there is nothing wrong with your boss paying you $7.50 an hour while making $100 an hour off your labor, eventhough he did nothing but ATS all day while they worked in his nonairconditioned sweatshop.

Even though he did nothing but play golf or ATS all day, he deserves 90% of the profits of your Labor, because he had enough money to start the company.

Because he took all the risks, even though his loses are covered by insurance, so he can't lose. So he took no risks at all.

Be default of him having money, all his workers owe him 90% of their labors.

This is Americas problem, and little else.

That's bull. People just aren't taught business skills in school. All your taught in school is you can be whatever, do whatever, it's no wonder your puppy massage parlor or whatever went under. If you have a skill that's in demand and you do good work with good customer service then I'm sure your SUCCESS rate would be around 90%.

originally posted by: Sargeras

But 1/2 of the work force should just suck it and work themselves to death so those like you that are quite comfortable can not pay more?

You don't know me, my worth, how comfortable i am, the challenges I face in life, or how much skin i had to peel off myself to be where i am. But I can say that i worked minimum wage for 10 years of my life. And was smart enough to figure out how to not do that.

It has been a decade at least since the same inflation you talk about made 1/2 the wages in this country entirely worthless!

Simple math problem

1/2 of all jobs pay what should be an illegal wage, those like you think that magically not raising wages solves this in some way, which is retarded, because without a raise it will be 2/3 within the next decade just because of inflation.

Maybe you like crime ridden 3rd world wages in America, but I for one do not.

Since the Nancy lefties won't close the border, there is no other option.

Pay more at McDonald's, or be forced to fight to defend your food daily in the near future.

It is litteraly this bad down here below your perch at street level.

It is a fact, a parent with hungry kids will kill you if they have to in order to feed their kids.

It is honestly approaching this point, right here in America.

What will happen is McDonalds will continue to seek out ways to automate their business. Then there won't be any wages to discuss.

Again, using terms "people like you" shows you are speaking from complete ignorance. Because you don't know me, other than I run businesses for other people.

Raising wages won't work. You seem to think there are only 2 options: raise wages or not. Why isn't there a third option: begin transitioning to a non-industrial economy?

But feel free. Raise the minimum wage to $15/hr. My pay will double, too. As will the price points at the places I manage. Then $15/hr will be the new $7.25/hr.

originally posted by: luthier
a reply to: bigfatfurrytexan

I don't agree or think that's the only solution. The opposite also happens. Without raising min wage and using the cpi to gauge inflation we have set up a bad situation for the low wage earners. The only solution in your model is benefits.

I do not disagree with this at all. While im not a fan of minimum wage, i know why we have it, and understand the safety net it seems to provide. So i won't argue it too much. What I will argue is adjustments to the minimum wage that outpaces adjustments to medicare/social security benefits, since these are somewhat representative to the power of the dollar in our economy (not the world economy).

If we adjust minimum wage out of pace with inflation, we negatively impact the savings of the middle class. We also reduce the spending potential of what the wealthy have in the bank, meaning that spending will slow (since it is businesses and wealthy persons who spend the most day to day), creating a stagnation in the economy.

But even worse, without adjustments to social security, the spending power of people on fixed incomes will take an enormous hit. The only way to fix this is to raise medicare and social security payments....which wil bankrupt social security that much quicker, as it is already set to be out of cash within most of our lifetimes.

Raising the minimum wage is a bandaid. Its not a fix. Nothing will be corrected, as the scale will just shift up to balance the ledger. $15/hr will be the new $7.25/hr, and people will just be poor with more money in their pocket. Meanwhile every dollar you have in the bank right this minute, every dollar you have invested in your retirement right this minute, will lose value at a pace that exceeds inflation significantly.

a reply to: bigfatfurrytexan

This seems to be common sense to me, but obviously not to those like you.

If the company makes 100$ an hour off my labor I deserve 1/2.

It is my labor, I deserve 1/2 that pay taxes SS Workmanscomp etc combined period.

You did nothing to create the money besides logistics to earn your 50% , why is that worth more than half of my labor?

Labor... You know, the work that actually produces profits.

No office worker creates revenue for any industry, they only suck profits out of the company, yet they are paid at least twice as well on average as the laborers, why is that?

It isn't useful work, only labor creates value, so why are they so worthless?

There can't be office workers or owners without workers.

Your Ilk is about to get a rude awakening , labor is on the verge of open revolt.

How much can you make off their labors if nobody ever shows up?

Nothing?

Exactly!!

a reply to: JBDTheBeast

Try feeding your family by hunting and fishing or living on "public" lands? Try growing a garden in your front yard? Try building a business without paying the state its "fair share". When you have to ask permission for everything from feeding your family to building your own business, that is not freedom in any sense of the word. When everything you have worked for is subject to the will of an arbitrarily enforced law or the "good graces" of the state, you are a slave to them. Follow the rules and hopefully you will not see the whipping post, though a great many will still get caught up in "the land of the free" with the highest incarceration rates in the world.

Sorry, but from my perspective, that is not freedom by any stretch of the imagination.

a reply to: bigfatfurrytexan

What will happen is McDonalds will continue to seek out ways to automate their business. Then there won't be any wages to discuss.

McD is a franchise operation.

That means mom and pops actually run the franchise who just pays MCD for name recognition, and other benefits.

$15 an hour for flipping burgers is just ridiculous.

A job meant to teenagers to begin with as a stepping stone in to other jobs that pay higher wages.

The way it's always been.

The bigger problem is people are making those snip jobs careers.

Where they should be used as stepping stones.

the problem with this country: the proletariat are idiots. What they want: more money. How do they demand it? Pay increases legislated in Washington.

Gotta give you

a reply to: JBDTheBeast

That doesn't actually logically make sense .

The amount of jobs available actually matter. If you studied your ass off as mechanical engineer and do good work nobody gives a crap if there isn't work to be done.

If you have 100 jobs and 500 people looking it really doesn't matter to 400 how hard they worked.

It just doesn't make sense to assume something impossible will come true.

We will be at half the labour market in 25 years or so do yo automation and robotics. So there will be 25 jobs per 1000 people.

Better work hard and learn self defense when the majority comes wondering why they can't have what was laid out in the preamble

originally posted by: Sargeras
a reply to: bigfatfurrytexan

This seems to be common sense to me, but obviously not to those like you.

If the company makes 100$ an hour off my labor I deserve 1/2.

It is my labor, I deserve 1/2 that pay taxes SS Workmanscomp etc combined period.

You did nothing to create the money besides logistics to earn your 50% , why is that worth more than half of my labor?

Labor... You know, the work that actually produces profits.

No office worker creates revenue for any industry, they only suck profits out of the company, yet they are paid at least twice as well on average as the laborers, why is that?

It isn't useful work, only labor creates value, so why are they so worthless?

There can't be office workers or owners without workers.

Your Ilk is about to get a rude awakening , labor is on the verge of open revolt.

How much can you make off their labors if nobody ever shows up?

Nothing?

Exactly!!

Do you understand how ratio based budgeting works? In any industry I have worked in, employee compensation and benefits equals about 40-50% of revenue. So I have no idea why you are going on. But im damn well calling out your "like you" comments. You. Do. Not. Know. Me. And it makes your argument weak to employ your lame ass ad homs. So cut it out. Talk to the topic.

Did nothing but put forth all the risk. Spent their life savings or went into debt to pursue their dream. Often worked more hours for less money than their employees especially during the first few years ... sometimes longer.

But yeah, you deserve half just for showing up.

a reply to: Sargeras

originally posted by: TinFoilSuit
a reply to: JBDTheBeast

Try feeding your family by hunting and fishing or living on "public" lands? Try growing a garden in your front yard? Try building a business without paying the state its "fair share". When you have to ask permission for everything from feeding your family to building your own business, that is not freedom in any sense of the word. When everything you have worked for is subject to the will of an arbitrarily enforced law or the "good graces" of the state, you are a slave to them. Follow the rules and hopefully you will not see the whipping post, though a great many will still get caught up in "the land of the free" with the highest incarceration rates in the world.

Sorry, but from my perspective, that is not freedom by any stretch of the imagination.

Well if business types ###snipped### didn't intentionally screw over everyone they meet for profit or dump toxic waste into rivers, none of those regulations would exist.