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Is there real immortals among us?

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posted on Dec, 1 2016 @ 01:28 PM
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originally posted by: Agartha

There is no evidence for the 'immortal tree of life'. You need faith to believe it and I don't possess such faith. I need proof.


What do you imagine an "immortal tree of life" really is? What do you think cooperton is talking about? A tree?


Religions were created to oppress the masses, and they still do to this day. More people have been killed in the name of one God or another than they have been killed by disease, colonialism or greed.


Where's your proof? For someone who values it so highly, I'm surprised you haven't provided us the relevant statistics concerning "people killed by religion." You can't quantify something so vague and stupid as that, which is why there isn't evidence for it. It's like saying more people have been killed by anger than anything else in the world, or more people have been killed by greed, or more by self-interest. It's not quantifiable.


Of course Plato believe that, in ancient times they didn't have the knowledge we have (of biology, astronomy, physics etc).


The knowledge we have today is roughly comparable to what Plato had. Which is to say very little.




posted on Dec, 1 2016 @ 04:15 PM
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originally posted by: Talorc
What do you imagine an "immortal tree of life" really is? What do you think cooperton is talking about? A tree?


Jeez, I'm so glad you posted such patronizing reply to me...... now it's all clear.

~rolls eyes~


Where's your proof? For someone who values it so highly, I'm surprised you haven't provided us the relevant statistics concerning "people killed by religion." You can't quantify something so vague and stupid as that, which is why there isn't evidence for it. It's like saying more people have been killed by anger than anything else in the world, or more people have been killed by greed, or more by self-interest. It's not quantifiable.


Oh I'm sorry you find my post stupid, you sure are showing who the clever one is, eh?

Of course nobody has sat down to count all people that have been killed in the name of religion, but there are many moments in history where people were killed in the name of one God or another. Did they use religion as an excuse to get more power? I have no doubt, but I also have no doubt millions have been killed in the name of religion.

For example: the Spanish inquisition (which really lasted 6 centuries and depending on the source the figures get to millions), the holocaust (millions again), the muslim conquest of India (80 million), the Atlantic slave trade (greed justified by Christianity) around 20 million, Sudanese civil war (millions again), the greates genocide: all the natives in North/Central/South America that were basically exterminated,executed if they didn't convert, etc etc.

Have I said religion is the only reason peopel have been killed? No, I am not. But entire civilizations have been exterminated on this planet in the name of one religion or another.

But I'm sure you'll come up with another condescending reply to me just to show I don't know what I'm talking about.



The knowledge we have today is roughly comparable to what Plato had. Which is to say very little.


I disagree: we have increased our knowledge greatly in all areas, we have medical and technological advances that Plato couldn't have even dreamed about.



posted on Dec, 1 2016 @ 04:40 PM
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a reply to: Agartha



There is no evidence for the 'immortal tree of life'.


allegory for me

en.wikipedia.org...(anatomy)



The cerebellum has traditionally been construed as a "primitive" neural structure, recent research has revealed that it can be involved in a host of fairly complex mental functions, including the timing of both sensory signals and motor movements. The cerebellum is actively involved in the classical conditioning of motor responses, as in eyeblink conditioning. Other theorists suggest that the cerebellum provides support functions for the rest of the brain, including monitoring sensory data and maximizing the quality of sensory input -- particularly with respect to tactile exploration of the environment(see "Rethinking the 'Lesser brain'" by J.M. Bower and L.M. Parsons, Scientific American, 08/03). As we acquire a motor skill, such as grasping an object or playing a musical instrument, control of motor activity gradually shifts from the cerebral cortex to the cerebellum -- a process that will be described further in the lectures on Learning, to follow.


socrates.berkeley.edu...

a fruit from this tree...


maximizing the quality of sensory input


some other viewpoints


ASBURY, NJ (PRWEB) OCTOBER 25, 2010 Many acknowledge that Adam and Eve were initially immortal, but when the tree of life—a metaphor for physical immortality—and its implied fruit thereof were hidden, humankind could no longer ingest something by which to remain ageless. Perhaps it was too obvious in we-are-what-we-eat fashion, that we could actually consume our way to everlasting life. The pertinent question, though, is how or where was the tree concealed? A natural products chemist/pharmacognosist with seventeen years experience in drug discovery, now working independently, has found the tree of life hidden in plain sight of everyone—in the dirt beneath our feet, that is, in soil chemistry. Once the true meaning of Rev 2:17 was firmly grasped, and with alchemy or chemical transformation in mind, references dealing with eternal youth in the scriptures were analyzed from a biological perspective to determine the primary biochemical agents governing human longevity. Suspecting all along that the Creator had designed the human body to predetermined specifications where aging and longevity were concerned, a list of biblical evidence was compiled and interpreted accordingly. A free 382 page compendium of selected writings that addresses the subject of immortality in great detail is available at www.asclepiusonline.net.... The most important clues associated with food and/or immortality are embodied in the following references, highly summarized: 1) based on the way relevant scriptures were worded, Adam and Eve (humankind) were physically expelled from eternal paradise simply by the act of God cursing the ground, which hid the tree of life as a consequence thereof, meaning ground soil chemistry was deliberately altered in a way that henceforth made life both ephemeral and generally more difficult due to a negative change in soil composition, 2) after cursing the ground—implying specific elements were added to and/or subtracted from the soil to make it chemically inferior and generally less fertile—there was a justifiable reason why God would favor Abel’s offering of red meat and be neutral toward Cain’s offering of plants, as chemically cursed soil yields chemically cursed foodstuffs, some food apparently cursed more than others based on their biological origin, animal or plant, 3) deciphering the arcane symbolism used in Ezekiel to describe the cherubim, who somehow guard or hide the tree of life from humanity according to Genesis, reveals they ultimately transfer from soil chemistry into body chemistry through the food we eat, preventing or introducing immortality via two distinct chemical modifications of hemoglobin and myoglobin (hemoproteins), respectively, 4) the immortal God incarnate deliberately cursed an out of season fruitless fig tree, such an uncharacteristic act designed to draw prophesied future attention to this tree by offering a means to chemically extrapolate how the ground was cursed by comparison, suggesting figs contain a significant amount of an essential yet subsequently rare element necessary for sustaining his immortality by the chemical modification just mentioned, 5) after extracting and simplifying the first four clues above toward determining the two elements required to generate the hemoprotein types necessary for either mortality or immortality, the highly restricted ‘kosher diet’ of the Israelites was examined to verify that God indeed controls our longevity through food chemistry, as cursed soil leads to cursed food leads to cursed body chemistry, i.e. mortality, and thus, 6) Jesus was being both figurative and literal when prescribing consumption of his holy, non-cursed flesh and blood to acquire eternal life, as life everlasting would subsequently result by a steadily progressing internal biochemical transformation if and when his unique hemoproteins were continuously consumed over time. Points 4-6 above serve to reveal that Jesus’ genome and subsequent body chemistry differed slightly from ours—the ‘peculiar treasure’ (Exodus 19:5; KJV) genetically engineered by the Creator (‘vinedresser’) within a ‘chosen’ diet-restricted Hebrew lineage (Matthew 1:1-17) prior to Jesus’ birth—especially with respect to hemoglobin and myoglobin. This uniqueness effectively decoupled him from the negative influence of time via upstream suppression of all hidden DNA-encoded systems of aging. Finally, the jade body can indeed smelt chemically the life eternal pill, and the end product of that smelting process is chemically similar to both the fig tree puzzle and the mystery of Jesus’ flesh and blood. Solving all three riddles together yields any and all bioavailable forms of a metallic element that will make an individual immortal when ingested safely at regular intervals. Specific information about that element may be found embedded withing the website given above.

www.prweb.com...

The Elixir of Life - By James Cowan
www.esoteric.msu.edu...


edit on 1-12-2016 by kibric because: boo



posted on Dec, 1 2016 @ 04:43 PM
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originally posted by: Agartha

For example: the Spanish inquisition (which really lasted 6 centuries and depending on the source the figures get to millions), the holocaust (millions again), the muslim conquest of India (80 million), the Atlantic slave trade (greed justified by Christianity) around 20 million, Sudanese civil war (millions again), the greates genocide: all the natives in North/Central/South America that were basically exterminated,executed if they didn't convert, etc etc.



None of which adhered to the Christian doctrine of turning the other cheek, loving others as your self, giving to the poor, etc. There is no Christian teaching that condones violence.



posted on Dec, 1 2016 @ 04:52 PM
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a reply to: cooperton



Do you have any links regarding ascended masters from the B.C. era? I am interested, and wonder if they too talk about an intermediate heavenly realm. Dante Alighieri believed Plato was in a Limbo state, where he had all the knowledge of the Most High but was incapable of fully entering the holy city because Jesus had not come yet.


theres been lots

tamildeities.blogspot.co.uk...

palani.org...

soonyata.home.xs4all.nl...

soonyata.home.xs4all.nl...

www.scribd.com...

theres probably one in their

www.alchemywebsite.com...

coz it's sort of Christ relevant
www.sacred-texts.com...

some pointed this fellow out in another thread
mythology.wikia.com...

Hsiens in China as well

The Grand Cophta....

a nice story about alchemy


The Practise of Chemicall, and Hermeticall Physicke... London, 1605, contains an interesting description of alchemically produced phantom plants.

Another [demonstration of the living forces in salts] I received from a most learned and famous Polonian, a skilfull Physitian,
above 26 yeers since. This man was so excellently, and phylosophically skilfull in the preparing of ashes out of all the parts of any maner of plant, with all the Tinctures and Impressions of all the parts of the plant, and would in such wise conserve all their Spirites, and the Authours of all their faculties, that hee had above thirtie such plants prepared out of their ashes of divers sorts, conteynes in their several glasses, sealed up with Hermes seale, with the tytle of each particular plant, and the propertie thereof, written upon the same.

So, as that if a man desired to see a Rose or Mary-gold, or any other flower, as a red or white Poppey, or such like: then would hee take the glass wherein the ashes of such a flower was inclosed, whether it were a Rose, a Marie-golde, a Poppey, a Gilly-flower, or such like, according as the writing of the glass did demonstrate. And putting the flame of a Candell to the bottome of the glasse, by which it was made hote, you might see that most thinne and impalpable ashes, or salt, send forth from the bottome of the glasse, the manifest form of a Rose, vegetating and growing up by little and little, and putting on so fully the form of stalkes, leaves and flowers,

in such perfect and naturall wise in apparant shew, that a man would have beleeved verily, the same to be naturally corporeat, whereas in truth it was the spirituall Idea, indued with a spiritual essence: which served for no other purpose, but to be matched with his fitting earth, that so it might take unto it a soly[d] body. This shadowed Figure, so soone as the vessell was taken from the fire, turned to his ashes again, and vanishing away, became a Chaos and confused matter.

When I had seene this secret, endevouring with al my might to attain to the same, I spent much time about it, but yet lost my labour.



edit on 1-12-2016 by kibric because: boo



posted on Dec, 1 2016 @ 04:54 PM
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originally posted by: kibric


(tree of life is) allegory for me

en.wikipedia.org...(anatomy)



Interesting find on the arbor vitae. I think the tree of life is in the spine though, in the midst of the body. Ever wonder how both the tree of life and knowledge are both in the middle of the garden (Genesis 2:9)? They are both located in the spine in the middle of the body. anatomy holds the literal meaning behind much of mystic knowledge. The reptilian brain is the autonomic nervous system in the human - the autonomic nervous system (reptilian brain - hence the serpent) is subdivided into the parasympathetic (PNS) and sympathetic (SNS) nervous system. The PNS is responsible for repair (tree of life), whereas the SNS is responsible for coping with stress (tree of knowledge). Interestingly enough, eating from the tree of knowledge causes all circumstances that are known to be caused by the sympathetic nervous system:

1) Pupil Dilation – “Their eyes were opened…” (Genesis 3:7)
2) Fear and Hiding – “…the man and his wife hide themselves from… Jehovah God…” (Genesis 3:8, 10)
3) Conventional Childbirth (By the Male Orgasm - a sympathetic nervous system reflex) – (Genesis 3:16)
4) Stressful Work and General Survival – (Gen 3:17, 19, 21, 23)

This dichotomy of the reptilian brain is represented in the caduceus of Hermes. The two coiling snakes represent the dualistic trees in paradise in the spine. Atop of the caduceus is a pinecone, representing the pineal gland located at the top of the reptilian brain.

How the mystics were able to grasp these concepts without modern medical diagnostic tools is mind-boggling
edit on 1-12-2016 by cooperton because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 1 2016 @ 05:11 PM
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originally posted by: cooperton
None of which adhered to the Christian doctrine of turning the other cheek, loving others as your self, giving to the poor, etc. There is no Christian teaching that condones violence.


And yet men of God picked specific passages from the OT to justify their actions, to justify their crimes. The OT is part of the Bible, which is the book Christians follow. So whether we like it or not, all those millions of poor souls were killed in the name of religion.

The problem is that the Bible is a book that contradicts itself so people will pick and choose whatever passage suits you. This happens even today, with homosexuality for example. And this is why I don't believe the Bible is a book written by a God, unless this God likes playing mental games with his people.


a reply to: kibric

Thank you, that's a lot to read and it's late for me, I'll come back to it tomorrow.




posted on Dec, 1 2016 @ 07:53 PM
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a reply to: Agartha

I am not patronizing you. I joined in because I wanted to respond to your post, specifically. Why not take it as a compliment? I'm complimented that you responded to me.

I could gather together a group of people and start killing in the name of kittens. People will justify what they do with a million slogans, a million holy books, and a million flags, but when you kill someone you've adopted the philosophy of a killer and abandoned the philosophy of kinship and decency, irrespective of religion.

The Bible is nothing but words on paper, priests' sermons are nothing but air, a church is nothing but a building, and religion (as such) exists only in the minds of its followers. You, like religious people, are attaching your own significance to these things. You are two sides of the same superstitious coin.


I disagree: we have increased our knowledge greatly in all areas, we have medical and technological advances that Plato couldn't have even dreamed about.


That may be true, but look out your window. You probably can't see the Milky Way because of light pollution. Scientists can map distant galaxies and tell us how many light years we are from Saturn, but you can't look up into the night sky and see them for yourself. Are you the better for it?

In the greater context, our advances amount to a sandcastle, no sooner built than washed away. Don't disregard what ancient authors had to say; they rightly guessed many things.



posted on Dec, 2 2016 @ 03:05 AM
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originally posted by: Talorc
I could gather together a group of people and start killing in the name of kittens. People will justify what they do with a million slogans, a million holy books, and a million flags, but when you kill someone you've adopted the philosophy of a killer and abandoned the philosophy of kinship and decency, irrespective of religion.


That's what I've been saying too: many hid behind religion to kill others for other reasons, but they still killed in the name of one God or another and their followers believed them and committed the same crime for the same religion. And you can't say that the philosophy of certain religions are of love and peace, look at Christianity for example, the OT is a book full of vile passages that incite violence of every form and type. And the OT is still part of the Christian Bible, part of the Christian philosophy.



The Bible is nothing but words on paper, priests' sermons are nothing but air, a church is nothing but a building, and religion (as such) exists only in the minds of its followers. You, like religious people, are attaching your own significance to these things. You are two sides of the same superstitious coin.


And once again you are repeating what I have been saying: when I told Cooper that I am an agnostic but I am against religions, I said it is because I cannot prove nor disprove a higher power exists (or not), but I know a book so full of contradictions and violence could not be the source of an almighty deity. Not a chance.

So in the end you ended up saying what I have been saying! LOL




That may be true, but look out your window. You probably can't see the Milky Way because of light pollution. Scientists can map distant galaxies and tell us how many light years we are from Saturn, but you can't look up into the night sky and see them for yourself. Are you the better for it?

In the greater context, our advances amount to a sandcastle, no sooner built than washed away. Don't disregard what ancient authors had to say; they rightly guessed many things.


I never disregard what our ancestors did and knew, on the contrary, when people shout 'Aliens did it' or 'Gods did it' because they can't fathom that ancient people built incredible structures, I always say the opposite, that we tend to underestimate their knowledge and capabilities.

But, our knowledge has increased so much in the last century only... however, I agree, we still know very little.



posted on Dec, 2 2016 @ 11:15 AM
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originally posted by: Agartha

That's what I've been saying too: many hid behind religion to kill others for other reasons, but they still killed in the name of one God or another and their followers believed them and committed the same crime for the same religion. And you can't say that the philosophy of certain religions are of love and peace, look at Christianity for example, the OT is a book full of vile passages that incite violence of every form and type. And the OT is still part of the Christian Bible, part of the Christian philosophy.


The New Covenant upholds the prophecy of the Old while establishing a perfect transcendental Law of love and altruism. Jesus abolished obsolete laws like an eye for an eye, saying that it is best to turn the other cheek. Christ didn't even condone preventing someone from stealing from you (Luke 6:29)... or even physical self-defense (Matthew 5:39)! You cannot say that violence is part of the Christian philosophy.




And once again you are repeating what I have been saying: when I told Cooper that I am an agnostic but I am against religions, I said it is because I cannot prove nor disprove a higher power exists (or not), but I know a book so full of contradictions and violence could not be the source of an almighty deity. Not a chance.


If you would stop your hellbent pursuit of litigating God, you perhaps could come to the understanding that you claim to be seeking. What Talorc is saying is similar to what the apostle Philip wrote in his Gospel:

"Names given to the worldly are very deceptive, for they divert our thoughts from what is correct to what is incorrect. Thus one who hears the word "God" does not perceive what is correct, but perceives what is incorrect... unless they have come to know what is correct. The names which are heard are in the world deceive... But truth brought names into existence in the world for our sakes, because it is not possible to learn it (truth) without these names. The rulers (archons) wanted to deceive man, since they saw that he had a kinship with those that are truly good. They took the name of those that are good and gave it to those that are not good, so that through the names they might deceive him and bind them to those that are not good."

I hope you see the relevance to your condemnation of the church. I know the frustration you are feeling, because I still go through it when I observe the hypocrisy of the church. Realize that the enemy has infiltrated the church, and see the context that Philip is referring to in the bold portion of the quote above.

edit on 2-12-2016 by cooperton because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 2 2016 @ 02:25 PM
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a reply to: cooperton

The big difference is with those "names" they become also "forms" and then those names are used to control forms as a subject or slave... the difference between the two?

Freewill one can accept those names or accept those forms or reject them at any time one seems fit to do so, many try to act advocate or judge by their own ignorant attachments far beyond one's childhood.

When one ceases to be a child? They do not have to be subject to the parental attachments of ignorance that they have picked as their posion.

Of course freedom of religion means something to adults in the public sector in the provate sector? Freedom from it also applies... of course adulthood means the ability to divorce parents at anytime.

Some refuse to allow such an thing overly attached and controlling and then work to detroy their lives for their own lil made up world of make believe ignoring the worlds laws as well.

I spit on names and so called commandments but follow laws and the onces infecting the public? I use the legal and the government process to change them as an advocate for all of those being misrepresented.

Creative pursuits, pursuing or perusing the creative can be some nasty business other creative sorts...

I get hacked constantly, but thanks to all of this NSA? The private perverted sector subjecting children to slavery of nonsense keeping the world blind and ignorant as subjects.

Of course I am an atheist I don't care for any authority deemed above or below... they can keep themselves as I mind my own business they mind theirs.

Of course some just want it all their way public and private and in no way shape or form do I want to anyones child... I am my own child when I want to watch cartoons and eat cereal tell jokes... and as an adult get down to some adult business.

Dealing with school yard sorts of nonsense and make believe is a pain in the ass and I don't ride mules or high horses.

Yes I've dotted a lot of eyes in this simply to say this is where I stand and I stand there with dignity and automatically give respect but I refuse to serve others that are self serving.



posted on Dec, 2 2016 @ 05:37 PM
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originally posted by: BigBrotherDarkness
a reply to: cooperton

The big difference is with those "names" they become also "forms" and then those names are used to control forms as a subject or slave... the difference between the two?


Names are necessary for the caterpillar to learn how to become a butterfly. But once the transformation occurs, the words are obsolete and no longer useful.

The fuselage of the spaceship is ejected once you transcend the gravitational influence.



posted on Dec, 2 2016 @ 10:30 PM
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a reply to: cooperton




The PNS is responsible for repair (tree of life), whereas the SNS is responsible for coping with stress (tree of knowledge). Interestingly enough, eating from the tree of knowledge causes all circumstances that are known to be caused by the sympathetic nervous system: 1) Pupil Dilation – “Their eyes were opened…” (Genesis 3:7) 2) Fear and Hiding – “…the man and his wife hide themselves from… Jehovah God…” (Genesis 3:8, 10) 3) Conventional Childbirth (By the Male Orgasm - a sympathetic nervous system reflex) – (Genesis 3:16) 4) Stressful Work and General Survival – (Gen 3:17, 19, 21, 23) This dichotomy of the reptilian brain is represented in the caduceus of Hermes. The two coiling snakes represent the dualistic trees in paradise in the spine. Atop of the caduceus is a pinecone, representing the pineal gland located at the top of the reptilian brain. How the mystics were able to grasp these concepts without modern medical diagnostic tools is mind-boggling


Aesculapian Snakes were used in healing
en.wikipedia.org...



The PNS is responsible for repair (tree of life), whereas the SNS is responsible for coping with stress (tree of knowledge)

interesting view on it



Ever wonder how both the tree of life and knowledge are both in the middle of the garden (Genesis 2:9)


another cerebellum theory
books.google.co.uk... en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjP5vzRj9fQAhVE5xoKHYRaDqsQ6AEIZDAQ#v=onepage&q=tree%20of%20life%2013%20months&f=false



Then he showed me a river of the water of life, clear as crystal, coming from the throne of God and of the Lamb, in the middle of its street On either side of the river was the tree of life, bearing twelve kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit every month; and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.


check out some of these quotes
forum.alchemyforums.com...

Alchemy suggests that the philosophers stone is
The Tree of Life and Knowledge

if we entertained it being an actual tree
what relationship would it's roots
have with minerals around it ?

a tree which fruit changes my body ( earth immortal )
what does it grow on..
are we looking for a mineral ?



Along the bank of the river, on this side and that, will grow all kinds of trees used for food; their leaves will not wither, and their fruit will not fail. They will bear fruit every month, because their water flows from the sanctuary. Their fruit will be for food, and their leaves for medicine. (Eze. Eze. 47:12) Medicine (Eze. Eze. 47:12) is תְרוּפָה [ṯerûp̄â] : either from the root רוּף [rûp] , to make small as in medical powder, or from רָפָא [rāp̄āʾ] , to heal.2 Translated by ὑβίεια [hybieia] in the LXX: health, soundness of body. During the Millennium, the leaves of the trees near the river will provide for the physical healing of the peoples, but it is important to recognize that these trees cannot be the tree of life. Those who consume the leaves live to an advanced age, but do not avoid death (Isa. Isa. 65:20).3

Definite relationship to the philosophers stone
"salt of lunaria "

www.biblestudytools.com...
they suggest The Tree of Life is not that but something different



When man rebelled in the Garden of Eden, he was cut off from the tree of life (Gen. Gen. 3:22-24). Since then, death has reigned over all peoples, even the people of God—with few exceptions. We rejoice in the fact that in the redemptive counsels of God, history is to be brought full circle to affect a full return to a Paradise without death which was previously lost:

a change in our Physiology ?

there's also
crazy spine antenna theory




posted on Dec, 2 2016 @ 10:41 PM
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a reply to: BigBrotherDarkness



I get hacked constantly, but thanks to all of this NSA?


where the hell are you ?
what are you doing ?
bourne ?

are you earth immortal ?




posted on Dec, 3 2016 @ 08:50 AM
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originally posted by: cooperton
The New Covenant upholds the prophecy of the Old while establishing a perfect transcendental Law of love and altruism. Jesus abolished obsolete laws


Please show me exactly where in the Bible it says that Jesus dying in the cross eliminated the NT laws, as that is the new covenant, right?


If you would stop your hellbent pursuit of litigating God, you perhaps could come to the understanding that you claim to be seeking


I am not litigating with God, you have to believe a God exists to do so. I am simply using my logic to try to understand how people still believe in myths that have not been proven to be true. Jesus being one of them.


I hope you see the relevance to your condemnation of the church. I know the frustration you are feeling, because I still go through it when I observe the hypocrisy of the church. Realize that the enemy has infiltrated the church, and see the context that Philip is referring to in the bold portion of the quote above.


Cooper you are a sweet guy, and I know you are trying so hard to explain your belief to me because you have a good heart. But you have to understand that I see things differently and I can't understand why a loving God would allow the enemies to infiltrate his church and deceive his people. Same as I can't understand why he allows babies to be born with disease or to a life of suffering and abuse. Children are innocent and the fact that millions are starving and are being subject to physical/sexual/mental torture means there is no God who love them and who would save them, now, in this life, not in an unproven one after death.



posted on Dec, 3 2016 @ 04:55 PM
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originally posted by: Agartha
Please show me exactly where in the Bible it says that Jesus dying in the cross eliminated the NT laws, as that is the new covenant, right?


I said he abolished obsolete law - for example, he changed "eye for an eye" to "turn the other cheek". He fulfilled the law and was the firstborn of God without blemish that would atone for the sins of all humankind forever.



Cooper you are a sweet guy, and I know you are trying so hard to explain your belief to me because you have a good heart. But you have to understand that I see things differently and I can't understand why a loving God would allow the enemies to infiltrate his church and deceive his people. Same as I can't understand why he allows babies to be born with disease or to a life of suffering and abuse. Children are innocent and the fact that millions are starving and are being subject to physical/sexual/mental torture means there is no God who love them and who would save them, now, in this life, not in an unproven one after death.


To understand the totality of the workings of this world is no easy task. We were told that whoever comes to know the world will find a carcass! This world is dead, but it serves a purpose. The media wants us to think that destruction and death are ubiquitous and unavoidable - perhaps in this world. But do not let the darkness consume you. If a light shines, it ousts the darkness. A seed must first germinate in darkness before it ascends into the light. This is from the book of Thomas the Contender:

Thomas, spoke, saying, "Lord, why does this visible light that shines on behalf of men rise and set?"

The savior said, "O blessed Thomas, of course this visible light shines on your behalf - not in order that you remain here, but rather that you might come forth - and whenever all the elect abandon bestiality, then this light will withdraw up to its essence, and its essence will welcome it, since it is a good servant."

The link Kibric posted about the Rosicrucians is curiously relevant to this, and they give their testimony of this Christ Consciousness:

"THE place or state wherein the true Rosicrucian lives is far too exalted and glorious to be described in words. When we enter the vestibule of the temple of the true Rosy Cross, we enter into a region of unalloyed bliss and happiness. There is an effulgence of super-terrestrial light, where all laborious thinking and exercise of the imagination for the purpose of drawing logical inferences about the unknown, ceases, for in that light is the realm of pure knowledge; to live there is to perceive, and to perceive is to know. Into .that paradise of celestial consciousness nothing impure can enter. No room is there for terrestrial flesh and blood; but the spiritual beings which inhabit that realm are made of the flesh and body of "Christ," in other words, of the substance of the spiritual soul." Link



posted on Dec, 4 2016 @ 05:38 AM
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originally posted by: cooperton
I said he abolished obsolete law - for example, he changed "eye for an eye" to "turn the other cheek".


But some laws he didn't, right? How do you know which ones he abolished and which NT original ones are still valid?



He fulfilled the law and was the firstborn of God without blemish that would atone for the sins of all humankind forever.


Years ago, when I was loosing my faith, I visited a synagogue and a mosque to discuss exactly this, how did Jesus fulfill the law. Not only both religions do not believe Jesus to be the messiah, they also showed me that the expectations regarding said messiah are so complex and varied, there is no way to find all in one single person.

Also the NT is far from clear regarding this subject, and I failed to see Jesus saying he was the messiah of the OT.

So please show me how Jesus fulfilled ALL the criteria expected to be met only by the true OT messiah.




...and was the firstborn of God without blemish that would atone for the sins of all humankind forever.


Before Jesus, Jews used to sacrifice goats to God, to appease him and make him forgive their sins. Then God did a human sacrifice, with his only son, so we didn't have to sacrifice any more goats to be forgiven (that's why Jesus is the lamb). Now we can sin as much as we want, but as long as we remember Jesus dying in the cross, then we won't go to hell. Which means if we don't sin then Jesus died in vain (he also didn't die, he was in a coma for 3 days).

^^ this is how we see it without faith. I'm not trying to mock your belief, but this is basically how we see it with logic.

There is also no historical evidence of Jesus ever dying on the cross and resurrecting.


To understand the totality of the workings of this world is no easy task.


^^ Easy way out. Sorry but you still haven't explained it, it was a lot of mumbo jumbo abour spirits and pure souls, which doesn't justify the cruelty of God against innocent children.

How can you justify a child who is born with cystic fibrosis and lives a short life drowning with every breath he takes?
How can you justify a child who is taken by sexual perverts to be raped until he dies?

It doesn't matter how many verses you quote, if God existed and he was omnipotent he would save those pure souls from years of torture. You can't tell me God is waiting for the monsters to stop behaving as such. That shows no mercy for the poor little ones.



posted on Dec, 4 2016 @ 06:23 AM
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a reply to: Agartha




which doesn't justify the cruelty of God against innocent children. How can you justify a child who is born with cystic fibrosis and lives a short life drowning with every breath he takes? How can you justify a child who is taken by sexual perverts to be raped until he dies? It doesn't matter how many verses you quote, if God existed and he was omnipotent he would save those pure souls from years of torture. You can't tell me God is waiting for the monsters to stop behaving as such. That shows no mercy for the poor little ones.


This argument comes from compassion right ?
we don't want others to to get hurt

no True God can justify the evil men do
but why doesn't he prevent it ?

we also don't know how people
are punished by God
we don't see it happening or know about it
so to us it doesn't exist

an alternate view on it
God is impartial he cannot interfere
God could not interfere or stop Adam from eating the apple
he might of wanted Adam to throw the apple away
but couldn't break his own rules

we all wrestle with these questions
we won't get straight answers to these questions
till we at least have some real experience ourselves
with God, not necessarily one from a book

you see a man drowning , you don't want him to die
you can save him but you
find out that man's a rapist
do you have second thoughts saving him ?

the kicker for me is that the real Christ/moral character
wouldn't hesitate to save him

Gods love has no hate
the monsters expect to be hated by God for their crimes
but aren't
it's their own soul/character they have to face
devoid of love and compassion
an eternity in their own crappy company

it's a mad mad world...

edit on 4-12-2016 by kibric because: boo



posted on Dec, 4 2016 @ 07:16 AM
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a reply to: kibric

And yet, respecting the free will of monsters who rape children is going against the free will of children who do not want or did not ask to be raped.

Unless you are suggesting those children wanted to be raped? (which would be an extremely disturbing thing to expect).

Why is the free will of monsters more important than the free will of innocent kids?

See why it doesn't make sense to me?



posted on Dec, 4 2016 @ 08:01 AM
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someone should do a statistical study on how many ATS threads devolve into pointless debates about religion. No one is go to convince the other, which makes these walls of text useless.

So, let me sum up that last five pages of this thread so that the whole religion debate can end and I can find out who on here is going to claim to be immortal...

Random Person: "There is no example of a person being immortal"

Zealot: "Jesus was an example"

Atheist: "I don't believe in God."

Zealot: "You should"

Atheist: "You shouldn't. Religion is bad."

Zealot: "People are bad."

Atheist: "You're wrong, I'm right."

Zealot: "You're wrong, I'm right."

the end



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