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Public Universities Don't Want Science Students To Believe In God

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posted on Jun, 8 2016 @ 10:34 PM
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originally posted by: Masterjaden
a reply to: Woodcarver

Really, it is your brain that creates your mind? Huh... what scientific studies have shown this again????

Jaden
Uhhmm... The entire body of neuroscience..... Every experiment we have put the brain through shows conclusively that all of the activity is contained within the brain and the body. Can you show me an accredited study that says some of the brains activity is happening outside of the body? You can affect the mind in very specific ways when stimulating the brain in the appropriate sector.




posted on Jun, 9 2016 @ 07:00 AM
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Thread title is 100% false



posted on Jun, 9 2016 @ 07:11 AM
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a reply to: saint4God

You should of made a deal with your professor, that if he could prove (or even show proof for that matter) that God doesn't exist, that then and only then you would stop believing in him.



posted on Jun, 9 2016 @ 07:24 AM
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originally posted by: Woodcarver
Were there any doctors involved with you or your wife not being dead?


Yes in the case of my wife, no for me. Years before I'd met her, I was considering killing myself to see what was on the other side (if anything) so no one knew about this at the time.


originally posted by: Woodcarver
I'm sure you had a vision or something too? God spoke to you as the doctors were saving your life?


Although no visions in the case of my wife, I can say without a doubt there's something between dream and reality that can't be clearly defined, but given the choice between the two, would side more with reality. It's like a reality that cannot be explained by mere dreaming. Visions are very specific, applicable, and generally a learning (or revelation) is involved.


originally posted by: Woodcarver
Couldn't have been a hallucination from the drugs you took enough of to kill yourself?


I wasn't on drugs for my decision (and have never used anything illegal, don't like prescriptions unless absolutely necessary). For her, she had 'fallen away' as a believer prior to the event. She didn't see any hallucinations, just went unconscious.


originally posted by: Woodcarver
And then remorse, nothing brings out the jesus in folks like remorse for almost killing yourself.


I had no regrets about considering killing myself until the devil showed up. Then I realized I could be in a heap of trouble because I wasn't just messing with my insignificant 80-year life, but eternity as well. 'The stuff just got real' at that point. I turned to many positive things for help (counselors, friends, research), Jesus was the last and the only help.


originally posted by: Woodcarver
I see you didn't give credit to jesus for putting you in a place where you felt like killing yourself. That was all you right? Or maybe the devil for tempting you?


It's true, I take responsibility for my own curiosity. I don't even think the devil was really involved until I asked for something/anything to show up. Maybe, but if so it was not strong enough to override my conscious decisions. If I knew there was a Jesus/God, I wouldn't have posed the challenge surely.


originally posted by: Woodcarver
So you make a # pile of your life, almost kill yourself because of guilt or whatever, and now you're preaching jesus and salvation. You think that believing in this fairey tale should put you in a position of a teacher? One who is spreading the good word? Sorry pal, i saw you coming a mile away.


I think there may be an overattributing of emotion to me in a time where I had very little. At that age I did not know love, care about love, had no guilt, remorse, or any of that. I can say I was frustrated by not knowing, angry there were no answers, but I didn't beat myself up over it. I didn't really know fear until the above-mentioned pile I'd created. I'm not expecting anyone to believe my experience carte blanche though those who have been through similar can say, "Yes, this sounds familiar to me". What's important is others to find out through their own experience whether or not this God and Jesus thing is for real. I don't consider myself a teacher, though like to help where I can. I'm glad that you've entertained the conversation this far even if I were seen coming a mile away, mostly because you've got great questions that not only help me reflect on what was happening at the time, but also for others who may be going through spiritual warfare at present.
edit on 9-6-2016 by saint4God because: Grammar, clarity



posted on Jun, 9 2016 @ 07:57 AM
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Thanks for answering my questions, but it seems to me your answers are more romantic than honest. You claim you were not killing yourself over sadness, but rather you were emotionless.

(which is not really possible, and sounds very much like bravado, (the same kind of bravado that would lead some to openly identify as a Nihlist. Which you did earlier in this thread) or that you spent a lot of effort at that time pretending to be emotionless to avoid confronting very strong emotions. Strong emotions which seem to lead many people to attempt a suicide. )

and just wanted to know what was on the other side. So you decided to take your own life (without drugs, but i'm still left to assume. Possibly a wrist cutter) you say you were looking for answers. (Like whether there is a god or not?) so you were consciously looking for god? And in a hallucinatory state, (the brain dumps powerful psychodelics when in a near death state) you found the devil. (All of that emotion that you were NOT feeling, came rushing in, and guilt and remorse took center stage.). Confirmation bias took the form of the devil, and then as relief that you did not actually die set in, that hallucination took the form of god. The thing you were searching for when you started on this path. The one thing that could give your life meaning. You say it clear as day. You wanted to see if there were something on the other side. The only things "on the other side" in our culture, is god and the devil, and how convenient, you found them both, in a hallucination as your body and brain were trying to convince you not to kill yourself. The brain is full of powerful hallucinatory chemicals which we know very well are dumped into the body at very stressful moments, especially in near death experiences. It is not only common, but very much expected for you to hallucinate when you are near death. Your story sounds like a perfect storm for confirmation bias. It sounds like a thousand other cases that are thoroughly vetted in lab settings. As in, of course you were hallucinating, thats what happens before you die. It's a fact of our physiology. So, no matter what you say, you were def tripping at that time when you met the devil. Without a doubt.
Backed up by mounds of research. People are hallucinating when in a near death exp. thats why christians see jesus, and muslims see allah. Comfirmation bias.
edit on 9-6-2016 by Woodcarver because: (no reason given)

edit on 9-6-2016 by Woodcarver because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 9 2016 @ 08:05 AM
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I like what Tak, the dwarf God in Terry Pratchett's books said:-


Tak does not want us to think of him, but he does want us to think!'



posted on Jun, 9 2016 @ 08:34 AM
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a reply to: saint4God

I have a friend, who, many years ago was drinking way too much when he slipped into oblivion caused by alcohol poisoning. After he woke up, he said he was saved by "Jack Nicholson".

Nobody questions that he was hallucinating.

Maybe if he had just seen the passion of the christ, instead of the shining, he might have had a dif experience.

You said yourself that you were going through with your deed to answer questions. Mainly, what is on the other side. You were clearly focused on finding god. You might as well have taken a handful of drugs and sat down on a spirit quest.


Although no visions in the case of my wife, I can say without a doubt there's something between dream and reality that can't be clearly defined, but given the choice between the two, would side more with reality. It's like a reality that cannot be explained by mere dreaming. Visions are very specific, applicable, and generally a learning (or revelation) is involved.


Uhh yea, you cannot define/explain it because it was a hallucination as your brain was shutting off.


I don't even think the devil was really involved until I asked for something/anything to show up.


There it is again. You asked for something to show up, (while you are hallucinating) and the devil (All of the emotions you were suppressing) made an appearance? No mysteries here folks.



posted on Jun, 9 2016 @ 08:36 AM
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I wonder if they'd expect the same from a muslim.



posted on Jun, 9 2016 @ 08:40 AM
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originally posted by: jamespond
a reply to: saint4God

You should of made a deal with your professor, that if he could prove (or even show proof for that matter) that God doesn't exist, that then and only then you would stop believing in him.



This is now the fourth time i have had to say this in this thread. You can never prove that something DOESN'T exist. It is a logical impossibility. What evidence can be produced that unicorns don't exist? Should i believe in unicorns until such evidence of it's non existance is produced?

Get an education in science folks, it is what sets some people apart from others



posted on Jun, 9 2016 @ 08:48 AM
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a reply to: saint4God

If every account of NDE included meeting the same entity, that would lend credence to claims it would not neccasarily be proof, but it would be intriguing. As it is, people see all kinds of things. All of which seem to be relevant to the culture in which that person is used to. I.e. Christians see christ, muslims see allah or Mohamed, some people see loved one's (not always dead one's), some people see a light, some people see dear pets, some people see celebrities who aren't even dead. The common core in all of these stories is powerful psychodelics produced by the brain to calm you down as you die. We know that happens without a doubt.

I'm assuming you are well aware of this fact and have consciously chosen to omit it from your world view.
edit on 9-6-2016 by Woodcarver because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 9 2016 @ 09:20 AM
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originally posted by: stinkelbaum
so are you just theoretically stupid or a hypocrite?


Resolve the false dichotomy of your conclusion and we can discuss.
edit on 9-6-2016 by saint4God because: Grammar



posted on Jun, 9 2016 @ 09:29 AM
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I was with you until...


originally posted by: TrueBrit
...a community run by corrupt representatitives of corrupt organisations...


Why would you judge all these oraganisations this way when God Himself does not? Churches agree with you that worship needs to be a daily thing. If you have a problem with other people, that I can certainly understand, but do you have an issue with most of them actually do? Worship, charities, community building, fellowship, education, et cetera. I believe we're in church right now in that we're talking about God, don't need a building or a day of the week for that...and most churches would agree. (Matthew 18:20)



posted on Jun, 9 2016 @ 09:45 AM
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Science and religion are not related.
You cant be a christian scientist. that is like being a lord of the rings scientist, or a led zepplin scientist..it might be your motivation, but you cant bring your idle hobby beliefs into the lab with you when you are trying to understand mechanics of how things work.

If you identify as a any religion scientist..I would ask why? You should just be a scientist..or a (insert specific category, computer, genetic, environmental, etc) scientist.

So I would say believe what you want, but dont bring that into the workplace..because religion is ultimately saying its unknowable magic..that is a answer, and science isn't about starting at a answer, it is simply picking apart and discovering mechanics regardless of the nature.



posted on Jun, 9 2016 @ 09:47 AM
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originally posted by: Woodcarver
Saying that god has an open door policy, and that some people just have trouble getting in touch, is a clever way of putting the fault on the person instead of putting the onus on a god to be actually present and accountable.


As a precedence, I'm not by any means trying to be clever (which implies deception to me). I do agree though that the fault lies on the person. We, personally and by human nature, put up barriers or disrupt communication which can be caused by a number of different reasons. God has, can and will contact who he chooses whether they believe in Him or not. On the other hand, He has the equal right to let them come to Him. Which He decides for who, I haven't figured out. I don't expect to either, but if I do, I'd be glad to share. Lack of communication however, doesn't mean lack of existence. I trust George Washington existed, but we've never spoken, nor has anyone given me proof other than what has been painted or written about him. The big difference is God is currently existing, which means that relationship can be proven by the one who wants to do so more than George Washington.


originally posted by: Woodcarver
It also allows you to pretend that you are in a class that you can percieve as higher than others. You claim to have a direct line of conversation with a deity. That would make you super special wouldn't it? I certainly don't have that. I can't sell myself as a person who can talk to god.


I'm not special. It is likely my fault if I had in any way suggested it. In fact, I consider myself hard-headed because there are those who can believe without seeing. How they do that is a puzzle to a skeptic like myself and would notch them above in faith if keeping score mattered. In some ways I regret asking for proof, but in another, I have no doubt. You are a person who can talk to God, anyone and everyone can. There are not as many who do, and perhaps there are many who don't get the answer(s) in the terms that they prefer. If someone says, "I'd like to talk to God but don't know what to say or how", that's certainly something that can be helped with or, "I don't seem to be getting answers", would be another problem that could go through some troubleshooting.


originally posted by: Woodcarver
If i prayed to a god and it never talked to me, i would assume that it doesn't exist.


A reasonable conclusion I think, but not the correct one. There's something going on with the connection, may need some diagnostics and testing.


originally posted by: Woodcarver
But your telling me that it's just been hiding around the corner this whole time.


There the whole time yes, but maybe not as hiding or around the corner as it may appear.
edit on 9-6-2016 by saint4God because: Quotation brackets



posted on Jun, 9 2016 @ 10:16 AM
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originally posted by: Woodcarver
All of which seem to be relevant to the culture in which that person is used to. I.e. Christians see christ, muslims see allah or Mohamed, some people see loved one's (not always dead one's), some people see a light, some people see dear pets, some people see celebrities who aren't even dead.


Yes, it seems the first experiences people get, outside of the disassociation with the body of course, is the comfort zone they understood in life. the meeting long, lost family, perhaps a religious figure if they were religious, and perhaps if they were a jerk in life, something that spooked them into a bit of reflection.

It is a interesting exercise now to then consider why. Not just dismiss it all as brain melting hooey, but if you were designing a afterlife enterence, why then would peoples experience be similar enough to write down some patterns (dead relatives seems to be a reoccuring theme), but different enough to not give a exact accounting of (differences in scenes, senses, religious icons, etc)?
Keep in mind, the bible did suggest there are many rooms in gods mansion, so in religious terms, its not unspoken.

I would think, just speculation here if it is true, that those initial visions are like a halfway house to someone coming out of prison. it is a mix of what they were just dealing with (earth life / thug lyfe) of their own identifications, mixed with a slow move back into the new place of freedom. acclimating without too much shock. just my off the wall speculation.

The easiest thing (and laziest) would be to dismiss the imagination process of course...because here is the thing, there may in fact be more going on than meets the eye. we dont know, but we know we have countless hoards of people, far smarter than you or I, all claiming this.

I dont claim to know more than neurosurgeons.

I wont discuss my experiences (never had a nde, but some other stuff), but I will relay a tiny story.
I used to chat a lot on science boards. I was fascinated with neural network machines, AI, etc. and was semi-friends (as much as chatting online over months can produce) with a mechanical engineer / AI specialist who was making learning microbots for swarming. exciting tech, far beyond me. I found out he was a hasidic jew one day and this threw me off (agonistic atheist anti-religious.) I asked him why he believed in such stuff given he clearly had one hell of a brain on his shoulders.
He discussed a nde he had and how that was as close to what he could find to simply honor what his experiences were like..although it seems it wasn't even remotely close. I guess it is like eating Ramen noodles as tribute to a trip to japan. sure, there might be influence, but saying the entire experience can be summed up in eating some oodles of noodles from a package is laughably inadequate. I asked if he understood about lack of oxygen, etc..of course he did, he wasnt a fool. he knew more about the brain functions than I ever will.
He still believed what happened to him was real, and he is far more convinced, as he said, that the keyboard in front of him is the illusion than what he experienced. I guess it would be like..hmm...realizing you have VR googles on and took it off for a minute, then went back in and your crappy 3d avatar program is all saying naa, nothing beyond the polygon.

That I found interesting enough to stop just binning anyones stories and consider maybe I dont know everything. would be nice to one day find proper hard evidence for what people like him experienced.

Until then, work with what we know, poke around in unknown areas with a open mind, and I guess dont dismiss things just because we dont have enough data yet.



posted on Jun, 9 2016 @ 10:19 AM
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a reply to: SaturnFX

I prefer the line "there are many masks in gods changing room, and not all of them are saints".
edit on 9-6-2016 by TzarChasm because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 9 2016 @ 10:38 AM
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a reply to: Woodcarver



People are hallucinating when in a near death exp. thats why christians see jesus, and muslims see allah. Comfirmation bias.


What about when a Muslim sees Jesus Christ and not Allah or Muhammad? What about when a Christian sees paradise with just enlightened beings but no winged-angels or golden throne? What about when people learn things that are not believed in their religion like a Christian being given information about reincarnation? Or even seeing a symbol or hearing of an idea that they never knew about until the NDE?

Anita Moorjani heard a conversation between a doctor and her husband down the hall in a confidential/private room.

It is you who has the confirmation bias because you are just assuming that it must be a delusion/hallucination since it doesn't make since to your understanding of science and you aren't mentioning that there are other NDEs that doesn't support the theory that they are just hallucinations.
edit on 9-6-2016 by arpgme because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 9 2016 @ 11:25 AM
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I think it is a wholly absurd notion that science and religion/faith is mutually exclusive. Science is there to answer the question "how?" and religion is there to answer the question "why?".

Its only when one or the other pretends to be able to explain what it is not equipped to explain that they collide. Science as a "religion" or religion as "science" is a awkward and pitiful thing.

So spaketh I and if ye have no faith in this I shall burne thee at the stake for thy owne goode.

BT



posted on Jun, 9 2016 @ 11:47 AM
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Can you prove scientifically what God is?

Can you apply the Scientific Method and show people what Heaven is? Can you prove black magic exist?

Real science do not deal with the supernatural, religion, and things that cannot be observed, measured, or tested using scientific methods. It's like you saying the Archangel Michael does exist, while neither you or I have the ability to prove it otherwise.

This is not to say that Scientists cannot be religious or they must all not believe in God. A lot of well known Scientists are in fact Christian, Catholic or of other faiths. However, it's just that when they dive into the realm of "Real Science", they leave their opinions regarding religion out of it.

Imagine a scientist researching about the Big Bang or what happens prior to that, if he doesn't know, what do you want them to do? God did it? How does he prove that, scientifically? He can't, so we're going in circles without answers.

When I was taking science courses in college, I love how the professors explains it: "We wash our hands of it". We don't comment on whether if God or any religious aspect is fact or fiction, that's up to Faith, we just leave it out of any scientific research and discussions that's all...



posted on Jun, 9 2016 @ 12:02 PM
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Anyone who actually studied chemistry, biology, physics, physiology, algorithms, etc would see that their is complex design and function between a diverse kinds of matter. You being a scientist and believer in God reminds me of the Dan Brown book 'Angels and Demons.' Such a good read. The scientist who gets mirdered in it was in a similar boat. I recommend!

Anyone who says science proves God doesn't exists is delusional, has a vendetta or a personal agenda. Science proves that laws have been put in place. Also remember the very basics of science. I mean elementary school science...Living organic matter can NOT spontaneously generate from non-living inorganic matter. That is scientific fact. Not a theory either(E.g Louis Pasteur). Everything alive, has a parent. Simple logic. And just because people get monkey skulls and use a computer to draw a human face on it, doesn't mean they are humans. It means they took artistic liberties and created what they wanted to see. Keep on keepin on!




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