Police Commissioner Bans Gay Sauna, ‘Too Close to Mosque… Caused Widespread Offence’

a reply to: AmericanRealist

Okay the point is the OP was trying to post a "gotcha" thread to liberals. A catch 22 - OP is implying liberals' heads will explode trying to figure out whether to defend the gays or defend the Muslims.

OP failed, because this wasn't about Muslims trying to shut down the gay sauna because "gays". The Muslims were trying to stop a porn shop from happening. The "gotcha" didn't work. The only head exploding is probably the OP's.

a reply to: Benevolent Heretic

well then thats over 2000 feet, there should be no problem.

a reply to: kaylaluv
yea he should probably cut that out, it seems to be a common denominator at this point.

Whats the problem?

Putting a "sauna" next to a place of worship is extremely disrespectful. Do you people know what goes on in gay "saunas"? Thats like opening a "love motel" next to a school.

They shouldnt get to be assholes just because theyre gay.

Why would they want to sell sex toys and screen pornography at a "sauna"? Why are we calling it a euphamism? Its 1984 doublespeak.

And in 1984 style, some people are doublethinking like its a "sauna" and getting angry at people for not wanting to be by a "sauna".

a reply to: kaylaluv

Exactly. And to top it off, the sauna voluntarily withdrew their application. As far as I can see, all sides were heard and everybody was happy. The law didn't take any action whatsoever.

originally posted by: AmericanRealist
a reply to: Benevolent Heretic

well then thats over 2000 feet, there should be no problem.

Agreed. The OP was making a problem where there was none.

originally posted by: RedDragon
Putting a "sauna" next to a place of worship is extremely disrespectful.

It's 12 minutes from the mosque, not "next door".

They shouldnt get to be assholes just because theyre gay.

EVERYONE should get to be an asshole if they want. Or is against the law to be an asshole in the UK?

a reply to: RedDragon

The Muslims in the area didn't seem to have a problem with the gay sauna for 18 years, which implies they are more tolerant than they are sometimes given credit for?

What I don't get is why liberals jump to the defense of these people. Fine, it wasn't banned, but it's changing its practices to accommodate ultra conservative assholes.

Are conservatives in this thread likely astounding hypocrites that only really care because the perpetrators are Muslim? Probably. Christian conservatives are the exact same kind of ignorant assholes that these up in arms conservative Muslims are.

Screw this identity politics bs, an actual liberal doesn't care where it's coming from, but the rights of people to live the life they choose. Whether it's from idiot Christians freaking out over trans or idiot Muslims freaking out over gays. And let's be honest, Christians now treating homosexual acceptance like it's the cause celebre that distinguishes them from Islam have a very short attention span.

originally posted by: WhateverYouSay
What I don't get is why liberals jump to the defense of these people.

Who jumped to defend "these people"? What people? How did liberals defend them?

Fine, it wasn't banned, but it's changing its practices to accommodate ultra conservative assholes.

Which, like it or not, is their right to do.

I absolutely agree with the rest of your post. A liberal wants liberty for all.

a reply to: Benevolent Heretic

"Which, like it or not, is their right to do". Yes, it is, but the acceptance of their concerns as somehow being valid is what I'm talking about. Fair enough you point out how Breitbart editorialized the actual nature of the circumstance, but to stop there and talk about how it's their right abandons liberal principles. It's not some dichotomy where something is legal therefore ok or not legal therefore bad. That encourages the culture where public pressure from ignorant jerks becomes legitimized. I'm not talking about legal framework, I'm talking about ethical. Yes it was their legal right to do so.

And yes, " these people " means angry, ignorant conservative Muslims, the kind of people we shouldn't abandon liberal principles for.

originally posted by: WhateverYouSay
Fair enough you point out how Breitbart editorialized the actual nature of the circumstance, but to stop there and talk about how it's their right abandons liberal principles.

Not necessarily. I don't swear in front of people who I know to be religious, but that's out of respect for them, not because I abandon any liberal principles I may have. Just because one is free to do something, doesn't mean they have to do it. The mosque is there, the gay sauna is there. One of them wanted something, the other disapproved and both are free to do what they did (assuming the Muslims didn't pose an actual threat). Both have their rights and can live in harmony. I'm good with that (as disappointing as that may be to the OP). It's a liberal principle. Freedom for all (even ignorant conservative religious people). The sauna wasn't forced by law to adhere to anything. And neither was the mosque. If they had been, I would probably have more to say.

That encourages the culture where public pressure from ignorant jerks becomes legitimized. I'm not talking about legal framework, I'm talking about ethical. Yes it was their legal right to do so.

I absolutely get your point and thanks for bringing the thoughtfulness, but real freedom means the freedom of the Muslims to pressure the sauna to do (or not do) something - AND the freedom of the sauna to continue or to withdraw their application. Public pressure from people has changed this country in many good and bad ways.

I'm not big on ethical discussions. I stick to the legal side of things, because each of us has different morals and no one is right or wrong, in my view.

originally posted by: Swills
a reply to: onequestion

Gay saunas are a thing? Jesus. Well no surprise a religious establishment hates gays. If the sauna was located near a school or church I'm sure they would still receive death threats and what not. I guess the owner can fight this in court of move his business to a more gay friendly area.

Or they can move their fcuking mosque, which disturbs the peace far more than some sweating gays, damned hateful ignorant barbarians!!

a reply to: Benevolent Heretic

Ok, if that's the kind of person you are, I'll respect you POV. However, I think that some right wing people are consciously manipulating this debate in order to portray liberals as hypocrites. To elaborate - you agreed when I said,

Are conservatives in this thread likely astounding hypocrites that only really care because the perpetrators are Muslim? Probably. Christian conservatives are the exact same kind of ignorant assholes that these up in arms conservative Muslims are.


Whether it's from idiot Christians freaking out over trans or idiot Muslims freaking out over gays. And let's be honest, Christians now treating homosexual acceptance like it's the cause celebre that distinguishes them from Islam have a very short attention span.

some on the right know that you know that, and also know that you (you in the general sense) will then rush to serve as an apologist because you're questioning the perspective from which they're attacking the Muslims. You think they don't give a rats behind about homosexuals, they just hate Muslims. Then you fall into a rhetorical trap of falling into a diametrically opposing argument. When you do that, they get to portray you as a hypocrite that only looks to attack establishment Christianity, who actually doesn't care about the values for which you purportedly stand.

Now, I'm not attacking your character, because like you said about swearing and such, but I am sure there are some in the left that fall into that trap.

originally posted by: WhateverYouSay
However, I think that some right wing people are consciously manipulating this debate in order to portray liberals as hypocrites.

Absolutely agree. That's why this thread was started. To make liberals out to be hypocrites. It failed, but I feel sure that was the purpose.

You think they don't give a rats behind about homosexuals, they just hate Muslims.

Oh, honey, that couldn't be further from the truth. I believe that many of today's so-called conservatives hate (fear the idea of) LGBT people AND Muslims. There's enough room in their hearts for hatred and fear of both groups. I don't know if you're familiar with my posting history, but I spend a lot of time defending the legal freedoms and equal treatment of both groups (religion and sexuality or gender expression). I can't do anything about their hatred or fear - that's on them. But I can state the legal issues involved - and I do.

People on this board have tried to portray me as a hypocrite MANY times. They usually fail. Because I defend the freedom of religion, not just the freedom of one religion or the other. In fact, I was recently confronted for what the member perceived as my "outrage toward Christians" and defense of Muslims. My response:
www.abovetopsecret.com...

originally posted by: Benevolent Heretic
I have never defended either Christians or Muslims for violence, hatred or anything negative they've done to others 'in the name of' their religion. I have never defended Muslims for forcing their religion on others, forcing their beliefs into law, or for any 'holier-than-thou' attitude that they may have.

In fact, I have stated how many valuable lessons I've learned about love, acceptance and judgment from Christianity, so I'm pretty sure the point you're trying to make - doesn't really make sense.

Now, I'm not attacking your character, because like you said about swearing and such, but I am sure there are some in the left that fall into that trap.

I think there are plenty that fall into that trap. And I'm aware of it, That's why, when I do attack establishment Christianity, I am sure to explain why, AND that I would attack Muslims for the same behavior. If people think I'm hypocritical, that's their problem. I do not support any religion, but believe STRONGLY in the Constitution and the freedom of religion and from religion. All religion.