Beyond Conspiracy: Entire generation growing up on this ultra diabolical "FREEMIUM GAME MODEL"

But is it really bad because it teaches the core truth of reality as well.

What is that?

That patience and hard work pay off and that you can succeed by playing by your own rules.

I play a little Clash of Clans with my kids, it's like a little electronic family time. We don't do much and we never put actual cash into the games, however we move up the ranks and ratings slowly and methodically. There is never any reason to pay. Paying money is like going into debt or looking for a shortcut without putting in any hard work. The life lessons are that if you plod ahead methodically and just have fun with it, you'll succeed and that anyone can succeed in life, you just have to follow your own path. I don't really see a downside to Freemium games. It's a small microcosm of real life. You can take shortcuts but you'll pay in the end, or you can put in hard work and succeed on your own, without giving into the temptation of instant gratification.

originally posted by: stolencar18
a reply to: IgnoranceIsntBlisss

This sounds to me like the rant of someone who wants to win for free.

I expect winning to come from a little bit of luck and a lot of skill. The more casual you make a game though (and these mobile games are targeted at a very casual audience) the less skill is involved. Instead it comes from luck, and what people can do which is pay for raw power. Maybe that's just me though, I used to play some games professionally/competitively, I say I'm not a competitive person but in this aspect I actually am. I literally can't stand being anything less than the very best at a game I'm interested in (and I achieved being #1 ranked in multiple games at different times). The concept of freemium is infuriating to me because in order to be the #1 player you have to be the #1 spender. That's why I don't play those types of games, it's not just a moral aspect but it makes the game less fun.

Many people don't share my opinion though, they want to play something casual and fun, and if they can toss in a couple bucks to have something more powerful they don't think twice about it. Only a very small percentage of people are actually willing to spend money on freemium, but those who are willing to pay are typically willing to pay a lot and that's why it works. It's not even an 80/20 rule, it's closer to 99/1.

originally posted by: amazing
It's a small microcosm of real life. You can take shortcuts but you'll pay in the end, or you can put in hard work and succeed on your own, without giving into the temptation of instant gratification.

Growth in these games typically follows a logarithmic curve, once you hit a certain point it's impossible to make meaningful gains anymore unless you pay money.

Kind of like real life, if you work hard you'll top out at a mid level position and never get anything bigger without the assistance of a rich benefactor.

originally posted by: Aazadan

originally posted by: amazing
It's a small microcosm of real life. You can take shortcuts but you'll pay in the end, or you can put in hard work and succeed on your own, without giving into the temptation of instant gratification.

Growth in these games typically follows a logarithmic curve, once you hit a certain point it's impossible to make meaningful gains anymore unless you pay money.

Kind of like real life, if you work hard you'll top out at a mid level position and never get anything bigger without the assistance of a rich benefactor.

False.

Again, in clash of Clans-Supercell for example. there is no limit...you don't have to pay to advance or grow or enjoy the game, You can if you would like a shortcut without the hard work.

As far as your reference to real life, from my experience, if you work hard, you don't top out at a mid level position unless that's what you want. I'm growing large without a rich benefactor. I'm paying off debt, buying motorcycles and giant screen tvs, ejoying my ginormous pool and enjoying life, BECAUSE of my hard work.

That's small thinking bro. The only thing limiting you is how hard you are willing to work.

originally posted by: amazing
False.

Again, in clash of Clans-Supercell for example. there is no limit...you don't have to pay to advance or grow or enjoy the game, You can if you would like a shortcut without the hard work.

I haven't played it so I can't speak from actual experience, but chances are it's not linear progression. The higher you go, the longer things take, the more expensive things are, and so on. Usually build times and costs increase exponentially while resource acquisition increases linearly. This leads to logarithmic growth as the linear function initially outpaces the exponential one but eventually falls behind. Actions becoming more expensive is compensated for with there being more of them, but the actions that have the highest impact will always be the most expensive. Basically, they make free players grow horizontally for low impact while paid players grow vertically or high impact. Of course, you'll always see a progression in score as you go up, but score progression just gives the illusion of progress because everyone else is increasing in score as well.

I'm growing large without a rich benefactor. I'm paying off debt, buying motorcycles and giant screen tvs, ejoying my ginormous pool and enjoying life, BECAUSE of my hard work.

Really? Then where did your startup capital come from? Either it came from a series of loans given by wealthy people, or it came from yourself as a result of saving up paychecks, those paychecks having come from people wealthy enough to afford to pay you a large enough wage that you could set aside start up funds. I find it highly unlikely that you were able to get where you are without the assistance of others.

a reply to: Aazadan

So I would just take issue with this paragraph.

"Really? Then where did your startup capital come from? Either it came from a series of loans given by wealthy people, or it came from yourself as a result of saving up paychecks, those paychecks having come from people wealthy enough to afford to pay you a large enough wage that you could set aside start up funds. I find it highly unlikely that you were able to get where you are without the assistance of others."

What you are saying there doesn't really make any sense. Because we all, every single person, benefits from the wealth of others. We get Mortgages for when we buy houses. We have jobs paid by other people. If we own a business, people pay us. Most cars are bought on a loan. I didn't build the road I drive to work in. My business is in a rented location. You are correct, that I didn't build the shopping center. I didn't build the school that my kids go to and on and on. I had to work with a bank for my business. But how is any of that relevant to our conversation? What is your point?

My point was merely that we generally get the same education, same prospects for finding a job or getting a loan for college etc. Sure some of us are more charismatic or athletic or even smarter but none of that matters.

The point is that if you work hard enough, you can obtain anything. Anyone reading this post can accomplish anything they wish with enough hard work. It's not Luck, It's hard work and taking a few smart actions like reading a lot, visualizing, planning, writing down goals, creating vision boards, networking, gaining new skills like Selling and public speaking etc. If you want what I have, you just have to do what I do. It's that simple.

originally posted by: amazingBut how is any of that relevant to our conversation? What is your point?

That you have several wealthy benefactors. There's certain things you as an individual can do to increase your chance at success. Mindset is part of it, connections are part of it, being willing to work is part of it, luck is part of it, having a good idea is part of it, being at the right place at the right time is part of it. You can still do all of that right though, and your success or lack of it is still completely determined by others. Bank terms, city planning, others willing to compete with you, and more.

Bringing this back to these games, you can do everything right in them and you will still lose because someone has better funding than you. Perhaps this is due to my view on competition, competition creates losers, there is only one winner. If you're comparing scores you are either at the top or you did something wrong. If you are comparing game status you are either the most developed player, or you did something wrong. And so on, and this is where freemium really bothers me because part of being the most developed player also involves paying the most money. If someone pays $10 a day and you pay $10 a month, then given equal ability you will never beat them and it ceases to become a game.

The point is that if you work hard enough, you can obtain anything.

No amount of work overcomes a pay wall. This is just as true in these games as it is in life. At some point, you're going to get big enough where the only way to move up is to start paying off others.

originally posted by: Aazadan

originally posted by: amazingBut how is any of that relevant to our conversation? What is your point?

That you have several wealthy benefactors. There's certain things you as an individual can do to increase your chance at success. Mindset is part of it, connections are part of it, being willing to work is part of it, luck is part of it, having a good idea is part of it, being at the right place at the right time is part of it. You can still do all of that right though, and your success or lack of it is still completely determined by others. Bank terms, city planning, others willing to compete with you, and more.

Bringing this back to these games, you can do everything right in them and you will still lose because someone has better funding than you. Perhaps this is due to my view on competition, competition creates losers, there is only one winner. If you're comparing scores you are either at the top or you did something wrong. If you are comparing game status you are either the most developed player, or you did something wrong. And so on, and this is where freemium really bothers me because part of being the most developed player also involves paying the most money. If someone pays $10 a day and you pay $10 a month, then given equal ability you will never beat them and it ceases to become a game.

The point is that if you work hard enough, you can obtain anything.

No amount of work overcomes a pay wall. This is just as true in these games as it is in life. At some point, you're going to get big enough where the only way to move up is to start paying off others.

Two things.


Concerning Supercell...Yes there is a pay wall and it's hard, but with patience and hard work, I can attain any level, rank or thing in that game that anyone that pays money can get. Paying money just makes it quicker and easier. But hard work and patience will always catch up.

Concering my business. I disagree. Hard work and doing a few simple things that most people don't do will get you anything. Again, I don't have rich benefactors, I'm not overly charismatic or athletic or handsome or intelligent. I'm below average in every way. IN fact I've been homeless before. But hard work and those few things that I do will make me as succesful as I want to be. They'll work for you too. Hard work is the determining factor though. I still don't understand why you think hard work isn't key?

I'm going to put some thought into this and make a thread about success and what it really takes and what it is.

originally posted by: amazingHard work is the determining factor though. I still don't understand why you think hard work isn't key?

I don't know about hard work, I think people describe work as hard work, and don't actually know what hard work is. To me hard work means working 18 hours a day, 7 days a week, 52 weeks a year, for years on end, meeting the most tedious parts of a businesses needs. Most people don't do that, they just work putting in 40-50 hours per week, and they hire people (usually several people) to break up the tedious stuff and also contribute to the businesses success

Hard work isn't necessarily the key though, just because something is difficult doesn't mean completing it will make you successful, working effectively is a prerequisite to success. But guess what, EVERYONE who has a job works, yet not everyone who has a job is a success, it is literally impossible for that to be the case. Clearly, working alone is not the key, it's just a requirement alongside everything else.

I'm going to put some thought into this and make a thread about success and what it really takes and what it is.

Good idea, I get the feeling we have very different definitions of success. I'm going to jump ahead of you though and make such a thread right now.

Freemium games are a pain in the neck - I agree with you on this. For example, I spent $200 on the "free" game Game of War which, based on its gameplay and graphics, is not even worth $60.00. And that $200 barely improved my village.

I agree that this game model is predatory, as it uses psychology to take advantage of people.

These games are absolutely horrible, I mean actual game play, they're incredibly boring and who the hell actually pays out monies for this crap? You'd have to be a complete idiot to do this.

originally posted by: amazing
But is it really bad because it teaches the core truth of reality as well.

What is that?

That patience and hard work pay off and that you can succeed by playing by your own rules.

You cant play these games by your own rules.

What it does is hard wire their developing brains to lose any sense of ambition. Just wait, and wait, and wait to get basically nothing.

It teaches them to be gullible lackluster deadbeat chumps.

Although there is the argument that the world is set to screw every newly born person even harder than the last. I make this argument.

Which is part of my odds with this model because it teaches them to ubiquitously take this notion as reality, meaning they will have no hope of even perceiving it as a problem, and therefore never rise up in any way to do anything about changing it.

originally posted by: amazing
The point is that if you work hard enough, you can obtain anything.

In the real world, sure, although less & less (unless maybe you're a freemium game startup).
.

Excellent OP and interesting points about the freemium model, which many people are going to, because they know they make big money.

I for one am still drawn to video games you have to buy to play. I bought Skyrim on the day it came out, 11/11/11, and still play it, without paying anything more than for the DLC content which is not bad. But add to that the over 40,000 mods available for free, it is a game that keeps on giving.

I myself have even spent a few hundred hours making a couple mods available for the game on the Nexus.

And there are a lot of people like me that are willing to spend our time and effort and knowledge to make those mods and share them with people for free.

I have a feeling that Bethesda is using our knowledge and experience tweaking their game to make big profits though. I really don't mind it. Some people do. A lot of times I've seen their game improvements be only copies of our mods.

Anyway talking about Freemium, my kid got me to play LOL (League of Legends). That is a free-to-play MOBA. (Multi-player online battle area).

I knew he had spent about $20 on it and had played it for a couple of years. It never intersted me, but I thought, hey he wants me to play it, I want to do something with my kid. So I started to play while he thought me. It has a very steep learning curve to actually understand everything. And it itself basically tells you NOTHING about playing the game. I'm glad I had him to tutor me.

I still haven't spent any money on the game, and will enjoy playing online with my two sons and a couple friends a couple times a week. It really isn't all that bad.

I don't mind he spent around $40 on skins, its his money and well that isn't too much. I won't do it. Skins don't do anything for you, I don't see the point to it.

But I've read of a large number of LOL players that spend $100s on stupid skins. It amazes me really.

And just to prove my point here are some very recent videos of a LOL YouTuber named Brofesco, I was amazed and stunned that he actually spent so much money just to buy "chests" to unlock different champion skins, and to look for rare loot, which he hasn't even completed yet. And he's spent I think it's been over $300 so far now. Just to unlock packs that might lead up to giving you a skin.

I also was reading about a skin that came out recently that was like $300. !!! ??? !! ?? I'll play the game but I'm not going to spend $300 on a skin.





This list can actually go on for a very long time.

The younger generation, my children, are growing up in a world where Free to play games are fun, challenging, and very tempting to spend money on.

I'm not even touching on the bullying I have witnessed going on firsthand against both him and me while we play. Things I have never done in my life, nor would condone in my child. There is a literal culture in the new generation of wanton bullying and verbal abuse, called raging. They have no self-control. They have no manners. And it's not just a few people. I've played on several servers, including the NA and the LAN, and PBE, and they are EVERYWHERE.

My generation was never like that. The kids from all over the world are growing up to be pompus asses. They are. Intolerant bigots who take pleasure in bullying you online. They are literally everywhere.

This world, this system of things has gone to pot.

a reply to: PeterHawkes

I see no issue with LoL's model, they have to make money somehow and the game has constant updates, it's not like they built the game and then left it alone.

The mobile games though are much more predatory.

a reply to: IgnoranceIsntBlisss

I agree 100%. Freemium gaming is evil. EXTREMELY evil. If our government wasn't so damn slow and out of touch with new technology, maybe they could impose some regulations on this growing economic model. Because right now it is a HUGE scam.

What's worse is they are ruining established IP's with this model. You'll get games like Dungeon Master being ported to the freemium model. Boo!

a reply to: PeterHawkes

LoL's model is a bit different than this though. At least you can still PLAY the game without spending money. What makes freemium so diabolical is that they lock progress behind obnoxiously long wait timers (that get exponentially longer the further you get in the game) unless you spend money to proceed.

originally posted by: IgnoranceIsntBlisss

originally posted by: amazing
But is it really bad because it teaches the core truth of reality as well.

What is that?

That patience and hard work pay off and that you can succeed by playing by your own rules.

You cant play these games by your own rules.

What it does is hard wire their developing brains to lose any sense of ambition. Just wait, and wait, and wait to get basically nothing.

It teaches them to be gullible lackluster deadbeat chumps.

Although there is the argument that the world is set to screw every newly born person even harder than the last. I make this argument.

Which is part of my odds with this model because it teaches them to ubiquitously take this notion as reality, meaning they will have no hope of even perceiving it as a problem, and therefore never rise up in any way to do anything about changing it.

originally posted by: amazing
The point is that if you work hard enough, you can obtain anything.

In the real world, sure, although less & less (unless maybe you're a freemium game startup).
.

I understand the concept of the thread and games do get harder to advance as you get higher up in level.

But in the case of Clash of Clans, I'm able to be level 85 town hall 9 without ever putting any cash in? So I'm not sure what the problem is with it? Meaning that it teaches you that even though the rules are stacked against you it's still a fun game and you can advance as far as you want to. Keep in mind that too much video games of any type are bad for you.

Double post

Should have been keeping up on this front and updating it with news.


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California man spent $1 million playing Game of War
Mobile game described as "like gambling, but with no possibility of winning."
A 45-year-old California man pleaded guilty in federal court Thursday to ripping off $4.8 million from his employer. Notably, the man admitted to spending $1 million of that bonanza on Game of War.

The mobile-phone game is developed by Machine Zone and heavily advertised by model Kate Upton. It's one of the top-grossing mobile games in the world, according to Adweek. And now we know why, at least in part.

Kevin Lee Co admitted in Sacramento federal court that,from May 2008 to March 2015, he embezzled nearly $5 million from his controller job at a heavy-equipment company called Holt California. He admitted in his guilty plea (PDF) to spending "approximately $1 million" on Game of War. He also admitted to getting plastic surgery and buying season tickets to the San Francisco 49ers and the Sacramento Kings. The record also showed Co bought "luxury cars" and a golf club membership.

We've read reports about players spending thousands of dollars on Game of War, which bills itself as "the world's largest multiplayer strategy game." It's raking in more than $1 million daily, but we've never seen a personal tab this high to date.

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