The universe is expanding even faster than expected

I'm probably very naive about this, as I haven't given it much thought (until just now writing this out), but if time truly is the fourth dimension, then maybe what we don't realize is that we truly are "moving" through it, completely outside our perceivable or observable reality, other than the fact that we see "The Universe" as expanding and accelerating.

Maybe it has always been that what we perceive as expansion/acceleration is nothing more than the only observable clue that time is, in fact, the fourth dimension, and that we (everything we could possibly ever perceive as 3 dimensional beings) have always been moving through it literally...physically.

I.E. Maybe we are seeing this "expansion" and "acceleration", completely oblivious that what we are actually seeing is us, and everything we could ever possibly see or observe (our "Universe"), moving through the actual physical "Tunnel of Time", and the seeming expansion and acceleration is merely the only way we can explain what we see on the sides or walls of the tunnel...beyond the trajectory or center of travel (Big Bang)...kinda like a blood vessel or cell moving through a vein or artery.

Maybe the point of "The Big Bang" represents our horizon of perception, or center of movement along the tunnel that we simply can never see beyond as per our limited dimensional capability in such an imperceptible time frame.

The point of "The Big Bang" is simply the direction we are heading down this tunnel of time.

??? Just brain fartin'. :/

a reply to: lagnar

Right now every theory is as good as one another and I like that, my idea is that the big bang never stopped?.
As the mass and energy of the white hole exploded or was pulled outward forming our universe it then met resistance as our universe was already existant, that resistance also formed a black hole that is probably still there right at the centre of our universe (time space continuum) since the faster than light energy would have backed up on itself forming a shell that formed a new black hole so that our universe is really just a burp of that white hole that was then cut off by this new shell black hole, inside however the white hole still exists and perhaps a series of black hole shell's and universe's exists almost like the tardis inside the tardis paradox from Doctor Who but each time space of course would be unique though all would share common law's with the exception that the outermost onion skin universe when compared to the inner most onion skin universe would seem to have much slower rate of time passing relative to one another.

And of course the idea that perhaps any TRUE black hole's that form could also form white holes through a related process so that the universe may be regarded as a self perpetuating chain reaction.

a reply to: neoholographic

let me guess it is also older then we previously thought as well

One way of relating to the "Universe", as we understand it is that it is structure beyond anything we have observed thus far.

We are discussing its expansion but is it possible that it can also move in a direction?

It is very possible that the "Big Bang", has not yet ended.

Given the nature of the dendritic structure of the visible universe, it would seem to me that areas with deeper gravity wells are expanding more slowly than areas with more shallow gravity wells. This would lead to an increasing graininess as time went on, with the universe never really "falling apart". The distance between galaxy clusters may grow. Or, since nature seems to abhor a vacuum, the empty space may yield more matter.

Which is another thought I have had....can matter "condense" out of energy if the local laws of physics are stretched around enough? For example, less gravity and higher vacuum...what effect does this have on the local area?

And I have always wondered how you reconcile age and distance when you are viewing things that have passed through enormous reaches of empty space, which has a much smaller gravity well and would thus seem to have time travelling much faster.

So that light that we see as 1 billion light years away, after travelling through 1 billion light years of nearly empty space, is exactly how old again?

Okay, maybe I was just spewing pretensions (apologies, I get that way after reading this stuff too much), but what I was trying to remark on is that if the Universe seems to be expanding faster than first thought, then maybe we are just moving through the tunnel faster than that first calculation would produce, in my admittedly naive theory.

But, when moving through any tunnel at a constant rate of speed, any point on the inside wall of that tunnel (or any point apart from the actual trajectory) would seem to expand faster and faster, the closer you got to it if looking at it with only one eye or in two dimensions (limited). And maybe the sheer size of the Universe forces a limited perception on something so small (Humans)...when the dimension of time (4th dimension?) is so huge (larger than our 3 dimensional universe - everything we could possibly ever see with all our technology, past, present or future).

Like we are 2 dimensional beings trying to imagine the 3rd dimension by seeing the "thickness" of the pencil lead we were drawn on the piece of paper with.

Am I making any sense, or is this as ridiculous as it seems in my own head right now?

a reply to: lagnar

You make sense, I just want to know where the universe is expanding to! That blows my mind.

a reply to: Quantum12

"...where is the Universe expanding to?"

Thank you, Q.

And well, I guess the passed...and nope, that's not misspelled. A lil funny though, now that you bring it up.

Seriously though, I suppose I wouldn't imagine it expanding at all; I imagine us simply going through time, not passing anything...ever ("the past is gone"), and the future is always right in front of us.

But if so, then maybe the outer limits of observable space (what our telescopes can no longer see expanding) is truly what it means to be physically, "in the 'past'?"

a reply to: neoholographic

There is no way of telling if we are rapidly expanding or contracting

originally posted by: Quantum12
a reply to: lagnar

You make sense, I just want to know where the universe is expanding to! That blows my mind.

GOD FINALLY SOMEONE !!! NO ONE GETS THE QUESTION !!! THANK YOU !!!

Anyway ok so I think into something like opposite of material the only thing existing without being made of substance is a THOUGHT (on quantum level)

Let me know what you think

originally posted by: Quantum12
a reply to: neoholographic

It makes me feel like we are in a big fish tank and someone above is looking at us laughing. Saying these humans can't figure out the secrets. If they really knew what was going on they could figure out how to travel at light speed.

I think dark energy is the answer to light speed, harnessing it is the problem...

a reply to: neoholographic

Maybe it's just the nature of all things.... the nature of our reality whereas expansion is growth.

Meaning.... maybe everything expands, grows, and evolves to the next level of perfection. The YOUniverse isn't any different in this scenario we call nature.

Take the N away from Nature and replace it with an M. Mature. Everything gets bigger in nature because it evolves to maturity.

originally posted by: neoholographic
So expansion starts to speed up and it will eventually pull everything apart and gravity will not be strong enough in any region of space to hold anything together.

Black holes form via gravity and I don't see anything in that article to suggest that black holes won't still dominate at some point in the future. All that article suggests to me is the spaces between galaxies are increasing faster. The galaxies themselves don't appear to be expanding, and in the future, it's thought that much of the matter in the galaxies will end up in their central supermassive black holes, via gravity.

Dark energy and gravity are competing to pull things together versus push things apart. On local scales like the scale of a galaxy, apparently gravity still wins. On large scales dark energy wins. But as the article says we definitely still have lots to learn.

originally posted by: Swills
a reply to: neoholographic

What's sad about this expansion is that we'll never be able to go to other galaxies because even at the speed of light we will still be slower than the expansion of the universe. In the far distant future, humankind won't even be able to see the creation of the universe because we've moved so far away from it but thank god for recorded data so let's just hope it all lasts and we do kill each other off.

I'd be more worried about how we are going to travel to other star systems, forget about other galaxies.

Besides gravity dominates in the "local group" of galaxies, so it's not expanding much if at all and in the case of Andromeda it's heading toward us and will eventually collide with our galaxy, so if we could get around to the reaches of our own galaxy we could visit Andromeda. Our own galaxy is vast enough, it would take 75,000 years traveling at the speed of light to travel to the other side of our own galaxy, and we know that would kill us because of the radiation so it would probably take more than 150,000 years at less than half the speed of light, if we can achieve that. Warp drive is a nice dream but there's no guarantee it's possible.

originally posted by: Quantum12
a reply to: neoholographic

Nice thread, it boggles my mind about the universe. If it is expanding where is it going?

We can't see beyond the observable universe so there's not much hope that question will ever have any answer based on observation. Probably all we will ever be able to do is speculate.

originally posted by: MamaJ
Meaning.... maybe everything expands, grows, and evolves to the next level of perfection.

Observations don't seem to support that. People have asked, "if the universe is expanding, does that mean everything is getting bigger?". As far as we can tell, the answer is, no. Atoms and molecules aren't getting any bigger.

After reading each post

Great thread

originally posted by: lagnar
Okay, maybe I was just spewing pretensions (apologies, I get that way after reading this stuff too much), but what I was trying to remark on is that if the Universe seems to be expanding faster than first thought, then maybe we are just moving through the tunnel faster than that first calculation would produce, in my admittedly naive theory.

But, when moving through any tunnel at a constant rate of speed, any point on the inside wall of that tunnel (or any point apart from the actual trajectory) would seem to expand faster and faster, the closer you got to it if looking at it with only one eye or in two dimensions (limited). And maybe the sheer size of the Universe forces a limited perception on something so small (Humans)...when the dimension of time (4th dimension?) is so huge (larger than our 3 dimensional universe - everything we could possibly ever see with all our technology, past, present or future).

Like we are 2 dimensional beings trying to imagine the 3rd dimension by seeing the "thickness" of the pencil lead we were drawn on the piece of paper with.

Am I making any sense, or is this as ridiculous as it seems in my own head right now?

In potential space/time is a material upon some other scale.

Just a Thought.

Nailing down the mass of the top quark could reveal to researchers one of two ghastly scenarios: that the universe could end in 10 billion years, or that people could materialize out of nowhere. If the top quark is heavier than expected, energy carried through the vacuum of space could collapse. If it's lower than expected, an unlikely scenario called "Boltzmann brain" could see self-aware entities come out of random collections of atoms. (While this isn't a part of the Standard Model, the theory – framed as a paradox – goes that it would be more likely to see organized groups of atoms as the random ones observed in the universe.)

www.livescience.com...

One way of relating to the disparity between "observed", random events is in consideration is Chaos Theory.

They are not random at all.....Just something that presents randomness as an Illusion in the present.


Music Break...

The Pink Floyd Tribute Show (2011) Full- Live From Liverpool

www.youtube.com...

I am certain that most would agree....Music is a form of communication...

a reply to: Kashai

"In potential space/time is a material upon some other scale."

Yes, exactly. Yet not just "some other scale", but some "greater scale" than the 3 dimensions of space (a whole new classification of scale if 'scale' is even the right term). I would have said "larger scale," but my sense told me the 3 dimensions we are used to don't differentiate in size limit.

Time, being the fourth dimension, is simply on some scale we haven't the capacity to recognize being entities of only 3 dimensions. Thus we see it and describe it in the only way we will ever be capable: "expanding and accelerating". Time is literally outside (or always beyond the edges of space), wholly encompassing our measly sense of space. Perhaps the Big Bang (operational horizon) and our observance of space's expansion and acceleration are what finally and truly prove Time (and therefore anything and everything else) exists at all.

On another quirky reflection: this stuff is really peaking my interest lately. I don't believe any of the 3 dimensions of scale would exist without all 3 existing. Neither a point, a line nor a plane have mass until they all do in concert, and I don't think I believe any of that would matter (heheh) at all without time's inclusion.

a reply to: lagnar


Given the forth dimension is a physical one that is expressed in reality beyond our general conception of time....then how moments are defined in general conception is suspect and perhaps contradicts.

What in consideration is regarded as truth. To those who do not relate to time as a physical dimension outside of the common definitions as to what moments are?

In consideration are no relating to time as beyond the perception of three dimensions.