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Gender roles and the effects of shifting these roles on modern day society.

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posted on May, 31 2016 @ 12:05 AM
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originally posted by: SaturnFX

Dont confuse the two though, todays discussion on gender norms, smashing gender ideas is not the same argument. Trans people are the most at odds with these gender fluid / gender is just a society construct types. Society norms may be. gender is not.


I'm not confused. A transgender person is a normal person. Varied as all the rest of us. Their brain gender and body are at odds - - that's all.

I'm not the one who brought up "fanatical feminists" - - and society gender roles.

I feel like there's a high school or college exam paper in here somewhere.


edit on 31-5-2016 by Annee because: (no reason given)




posted on May, 31 2016 @ 12:54 AM
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originally posted by: Freija
a reply to: SaturnFX

I think yet another Blaire White video addresses what you are talking about.


Basically Blaire is my source for trans understanding. I know everyone is different, but I tend to view her as someone transitioning / transitioned (I...think..she is post-op) from one gender to another as the standardbearer.
edit on 31-5-2016 by SaturnFX because: forgot a thing



posted on May, 31 2016 @ 01:03 AM
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originally posted by: Annee
Their brain gender and body are at odds - - that's all.

...Sort of...incorrect.

a trans person is..transitioning..its in the name
they are actively participating in the changing of their biological sex from one to the other..trans..transition

If they are simply a super feminine man, then thats all they are, a super masculine female, thats all they are also.

trans is not that, trans is an action term.

Thats why I dont really recognise people who simply cross dress with absolutely no plan on transitioning in the same context. transvestites are not transsexuals, they are often just playing a role that may be the result of some simple childhood issues with their mother/father and some therapy can in fact "cure" them. In saying that, there are a number of transsexuals who also aren't actual "wrong gendered" but just dealing with some mental issues..often they find out after they went through costly surgery that it was a mistake, they needed a therapist, not a surgeon. (you can see their youtube vids discussing it)

I think its important for anyone with gender identity crisis to simply go seek a therapist..especially before any surgery..make sure its not a simple issue of confusion and hidden trauma.

But yeah, transsexualism more than just a different mindset..its a goal actively being persued.



posted on May, 31 2016 @ 01:11 AM
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originally posted by: SaturnFX

originally posted by: Annee
Their brain gender and body are at odds - - that's all.

...Sort of...incorrect.

a trans person is..transitioning..its in the name
they are actively participating in the changing of their biological sex from one to the other..trans..transition


I am no expert. Just try to learn. But, I don't think that is quite right. I don't believe there is any requirement to transition.

Gender Dysphoria/Transgender is their brain gender is in opposition of their physical birth sex.

It's biological.


edit on 31-5-2016 by Annee because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 31 2016 @ 01:22 AM
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Just wonder how much of an issue this would be if there wasnt a Marxist Muslim social engineer and a tranny parked at 1600 Pennyslvania ave.

RIP Joan Rivers-she knew



posted on May, 31 2016 @ 02:05 AM
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originally posted by: khnum
Just wonder how much of an issue this would be if there wasnt a Marxist Muslim social engineer and a tranny parked at 1600 Pennyslvania ave.

RIP Joan Rivers-she knew


She was 81. That conspiracy comes with an elastic rope.



posted on May, 31 2016 @ 02:24 AM
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a reply to: Annee

Actually it comes with a 9 inch schlong google Michelle Obama dances on Ellen and the truth shall set you free.



posted on May, 31 2016 @ 02:30 AM
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originally posted by: SaturnFX

Basically Blaire is my source for trans understanding.


Certainly not your only source, I hope? She's somewhat fringe and being an anti-feminist men's rights activist her shtick.


I know everyone is different, but I tend to view her as someone transitioning / transitioned (I...think..she is post-op) from one gender to another.


Why is it okay or necessary to conjecture about a person's history or their genital status? She states clearly she is trans and is obviously well beyond the point of transitioning. Thinking or talking about a woman's genitals is pretty crass and reductive. If you do think that's okay, then that opens up the table to talking about your wife/sister/mother's crotch as well and as you can maybe see, that's less than couth or cool.


a trans person is..transitioning..its in the name
they are actively participating in the changing of their biological sex from one to the other..trans..transition


"...Sort of...incorrect."

There is no one way to be trans. "Transitioning" can be purely socially motivated and can refer to the change of living outwardly as a different gender than the one assigned at birth. "Transitioning" can also refer to someone undergoing medical changes. They aren't necessarily the same thing nor do they automatically run parallel. Some transgender people don't even transition socially or medically. Some take hormones or have gender confirming surgeries to facilitate life in their new roles. A few, less than about one third will also have sex reassignment surgery but this is not even the end goal for most nor should it be assumed to be.


If they are simply a super feminine man, then thats all they are, a super masculine female, thats all they are also.


You're right. That's what they are. That does not describe being transgender.


Thats why I dont really recognise people who simply cross dress with absolutely no plan on transitioning in the same context. transvestites are not transsexuals transgender,


Not sure what it is that you "don't recognize" but these people do exist.


they are often just playing a role that may be the result of some simple childhood issues with their mother/father and some therapy can in fact "cure" them.


Thank you for your psychological evaluation and clinical diagnosis, Doctor. "Cure them" of what? Not being like you? Are you suggesting being trans or gender variant or gay can be prayed away with reparative therapy? You know that's illegal in several states and several legal and medical organizations are suggesting conversion therapy be outlawed nationwide.


In saying that, there are a number of transsexuals who also aren't actual "wrong gendered" but just dealing with some mental issues..often they find out after they went through costly surgery that it was a mistake, they needed a therapist, not a surgeon. (you can see their youtube vids discussing it)


There are outliers and exceptions in any demographic. Yeah, you can find stories of some unhappy campers. Even if you could find 1,000 it wouldn't phase me because there's a 100,000 or more transgender folks that have transitioned that feel the complete opposite and live happy, healthy and normal lives.

Maybe you missed my link? Myths About Transition Regrets


Surgical regret is actually very uncommon. Virtually every modern study puts it below 4 percent, and most estimate it to be between 1 and 2 percent (Cohen-Kettenis & Pfafflin 2003, Kuiper & Cohen-Kettenis 1998, Pfafflin & Junge 1998, Smith 2005, Dhejne 2014). In some other recent longitudinal studies, none of the subjects expressed regret over medically transitioning (Krege et al. 2001, De Cuypere et al. 2006).





I think its important for anyone with gender identity crisis to simply go seek a therapist..especially before any surgery..make sure its not a simple issue of confusion and hidden trauma.


Maybe you don't realize that the first thing a person does is "go seek a therapist". It usually takes three months of counseling and professional evaluations before a person is released to even start taking low doses of HRT. Want to have a boob job? You're probably going to need a psychologist or therapist to sign off on that. Want to have SRS? You're going to have to have a team of psychologists and psychiatrists and physicians sign off on that. It's called gatekeeping and any individual that circumvents the process a fool. Do some of these "regretters" make it through the cracks or avoid the psych community entirely and go off on their own informed consent direction? Yup, it happens.


But yeah, transsexualism more than just a different mindset..its a goal actively being persued.


What happens then after the "touchdown"? I'd venture to say your understanding of the things you're trying to talk about is poorer than you believe it to be. Just sayin'.


edit on 5/31/2016 by Freija because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 31 2016 @ 03:43 AM
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originally posted by: Freija

originally posted by: SaturnFX

Basically Blaire is my source for trans understanding.


Certainly not your only source, I hope? She's somewhat fringe and being an anti-feminist men's rights activist her shtick.

I have a total of 4 trans folks in my social group. I dont understand how I ended up with that many given I dont have a large social group, but whatever. anyhow, she isn't in my social group, just someone I find quite rational..like the 4 nobody trans people. she just has presence and eloquence in her videos.
as far as being anti-feminist..many trans are given they arent trying to knock down the stereotypes and gender norms of women..they are trying to typically embrace them (m2f)
As far as MRA, whats wrong with that?
I think its just another way to segment society, so I am not a mra..as its focused on men, and yeah, there is some inequality legally, but I dont think it requires a full movement..just some legal challenging


Why is it okay or necessary to conjecture about a person's history or their genital status? She states clearly she is trans and is obviously well beyond the point of transitioning.

Not sure if she is actually.
Why is genitals a topic of discussion when discussing trans?...because thats what all this is about. If there is no consideration for genitals, then what is a trans?


Thinking or talking about a woman's genitals is pretty crass and reductive.

That, my friend, is what is called projection.
I find the genital discussion, when discussing trans people, part of the subject, not the full subject, but when discussing the person, and the discussion of the person is their activism in the trans community..its pretty relevant to discuss
If you think that mentioning genital arrangment in such situations is crass..thats because you personally find it crass. You should reflect on that.


If you do think that's okay, then that opens up the table to talking about your wife/sister/mother's crotch as well and as you can maybe see, that's less than couth or cool.

If my wife/sister/mother is discussing topics that relate to her crotch. then that is gonna happen..if I tell other people to not acknowledge the subject matter because its crass..its because I personally would find it so..not because it objectively is.


Some transgender people don't even transition socially or medically. Some take hormones or have gender confirming surgeries to facilitate life in their new roles. A few, less than about one third will also have sex reassignment surgery but this is not even the end goal for most nor should it be assumed to be.

Here is a neat test
womens boxing. can a man, who decides he identifies as a woman on tuesday, be allowed to box a woman on wednesday without undergoing any medical procedures?
I tend to view that as the reality of the situation.
If a person has no desire to transition, then why label oneself as trans?




You're right. That's what they are. That does not describe being transgender.

The only thing describing transgender is what a person thinks they feel like.
I refer back to the boxing question.
I wont be calling dakota a she until he starts transitioning and conforms..until then, he is just a cross dresser and very confused..might be a cool dude (unlikely), but he is just a troll..a vampire brony-kin and I dont have to respect his pronouns. I respect pronouns of actual transsexuals, not whiny dudes demanding they be addressed as bork/berk/blok


Not sure what it is that you "don't recognize" but these people do exist.

clarified above


Thank you for your psychological evaluation and clinical diagnosis, Doctor. "Cure them" of what? Not being like you? Are you suggesting being trans or gender variant or gay can be prayed away with reparative therapy?
I am saying to seek therapy before being sliced and diced. trans suicide is high, plenty of people regretting their decisions, they should have seeked therapy initially to see if their confusion is real






You know that's illegal in several states and several legal and medical organizations are suggesting conversion therapy be outlawed nationwide.

Luckily nobody is discussing conversion therapy..surely you aren't erecting a strawman to dismiss an actual problem..surely you aren't being an absolute cancer in this discussion and suggesting anyone even is sort of saying this is relatable to praying the gay away..surely you aren't that much of a small minded progressive cultist that would flat out lie in order to fit a repugnant agenda of dismissal towards any suggestion of seeking help during confusion to sort out if transitioning is the best idea..
surely not.


There outliers and exceptions in any demographic. Yeah, you can find stories of some unhappy campers. Even if you could find 1,000 it wouldn't phase me because there's a 100,000 or more transgender folks that have transitioned that feel the complete opposite and live happy, healthy and normal lives.

Maybe you missed my link? Myths About Transition Regrets

Many successful surgeries allow for happier lifestyles no doubt. I would agree to even the vast majority, sure.
But suicide rates of post op trans is very high
Us National Library of Medicine

You and I are in agreement though, which is weird given a few paragraphs earlier you were slamming me for even suggesting they go see a therapist beforehand...suggesting I was saying pray the trans away or some strawman crap.

Anyhow, I feel we are splitting hairs. I dont know all things about trans. I dont have to. its what, .5% of the population, if that? I respect people, I dont have to understand people, I respect 2 pronoun sets..female and male, and I can be convinced to use female on pre-ops if they are making a fair attempt at least (also opposite way if its a earnest attempt..testosterone treatments, etc). Any Flim/Flurs..I exercise my right to simply not talk to them until they get their head sorted out.



posted on May, 31 2016 @ 06:27 AM
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a reply to: Freija


If your avatar is you, you certainly seem to be stereotypically reinforcing traditional gender roles with your presentation, dress, hair, cosmetics etc. You certainly seem to conform to the roles your third-wavers decry as misogynistic, belittling and oppressive. Don't go insinuating that "trans populations" are co-opting a particular gender role that you yourself are married to unless you want to subject yourself to the same limiting criticisms.


That's a little ironic coming from you who is so fond of popping up all those glamor shots pictures of transwomen who are doing absolutely nothing to dispel those roles themselves. In fact, you do it on purpose because you want the most normal and gender normative-looking individuals you can find when you use that tactic. So before you criticize someone for "perpetuating gender-normative stereotypes" you ought to remove the plank from your own eye.



posted on May, 31 2016 @ 06:27 AM
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blech forum stick, double post
edit on 31-5-2016 by ketsuko because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 31 2016 @ 06:27 AM
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triple even!
edit on 31-5-2016 by ketsuko because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 31 2016 @ 06:27 AM
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quadruple even ...
edit on 31-5-2016 by ketsuko because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 31 2016 @ 06:41 AM
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if we, as a society, lost all our preconceived gender ideology. If we let our boys play with dolls if they wanted, and our girls play with trucks. if we let them be who they wanted to be, what they wanted to be, would the transgenders feel the need to go through the costly surgeries and such? I know for some the hormone therapy would be necessary for health reasons, but in general, if they were accepted for what they were, for the lifestyle they wished to live, would they feel the need to change their appearance to better fit their gender?



posted on May, 31 2016 @ 06:45 AM
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a reply to: dawnstar

Considering we have done that - set him down and let him wander the toys as he saw fit, and our son went straight for the trucks with a detour through the cooking sets ...

You can look at the research. Boys and girls tend to do what they do with their toys. Girls given action figures and trucks tend to still mother them and boys given dolls tend to still turn them into action figures. They even tend to draw differently and make different kinds of pictures.

Like it or not, biology plays a big role in who we are and how we behave.



posted on May, 31 2016 @ 07:38 AM
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a reply to: ketsuko

and not even biology can be fit into society's binary view totally.
lots of girls like to play with dolls, but I am sure they are not the favorite toys of all girls. my favorite was the lincoln logs. I can only remember one doll that I had in my life. girls typically don't like bugs, ect... I'd catch the bugs and spend time just watching their behavior. and, books, I spent alot of time reading books, and not just the fictional books.

I also remember my brother had a tank or something that when it collided with something, it would kind of explode, I thought that was rather neat. Think we took that behind the building we were living in and blew it up with some firecrackers if I remember right.

my point being, not everybody will fit into those notions, ain't nothing wrong with that, although I do think there are some who seem to think there is.

the main problem I see with the idea of pointing to the preconceived difference that supposedly exists between the genders, outside of the fact not everyone will fit so neatly into your views. heck sometimes it's like trying to force a square peg into a round hole. but since they are so different from you, then they don't feel the same way about things as you do. so well, although you wouldn't like to be in chains, owned by another, the african slaves didn't mind at all, did they? and, although men didn't like to be treated as oversized children unable to earn money or own property or make their own business decisions, women didn't mind at all, did they.... I mean look at how different they are, surely they aren't the same emotionally.

I'm just asking if we let people be who they are inside, would they be less inclined to change what they appear to be on the outside?



posted on May, 31 2016 @ 08:14 AM
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Now lets talk about the Feminism and feminist I was referring too shall we... (originally posted in another thread)




1. It hurt marriage. Women want to wait so that they can keep their identities longer and men are finding easy sex, taking away a big reason for marriage.


2. Undermines child rearing. More kids are in childcare where discipline is lax resulting in a "epidemic" of bad kids, childhood obesity, and bullies.


3. Two-income trap. With both husband and wife working it's hard to live without life's luxuries.


4. Undermines college sports. Title IX has ended many male-only sports at some colleges.


5. Emasculates men. It's better to be a wuss than speak up or mouth off and face charges of harassment or chauvinism.



Link to aritcle





Is feminism destroying the institution of marriage?
There is a simultaneous boom in women seeking divorces because their husbands aren't doing enough chores and because their husbands do all the chores. What is a man to do, asks Martin Daubney



Link to article



Feminism has obliterated the family First off I would like to point out the feminism manifests itself in ways that are opposite to how the female brain in hardwired to interact with the world. For example, in relationships it is said the women have to become unattainable, a prize to be won if you will. When they do this they try to be ambitious and create a life for themselves without men, and when a decent man comes along, they refuse to relinquish their power over to him. While women may feel empowered by behaving this way they will naturally try to keep chasing the high of wanting more power, but at what expesnse?



Link to article

edit on 31-5-2016 by RainbowPhoenix because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 31 2016 @ 08:39 AM
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originally posted by: Freija
a reply to: SomeDumbBroad
Maybe you read the things you linked from your quick Google search but I think you failed to recognize or understand the sources of these measurable levels of depression and anxiety. Being transgender is hard. Duh.

Because "transgender" is a nebulous umbrella term encompassing many multi-faceted things, you may want to consider that TRANSgender people aren't the ones "creating new genders" and I think if you looked more closely or had any actual experience with transgender people, you would find that most fit quite nicely into your comfortable binary and traditional roles.

It seems the ones so damn worried that the sky is falling are the ones suffering from snowflakeism? How about we stop tossing pejorative labels around and just try to all get along?




I actually have a lot of "quick google searches" linked to credible sources. I never claimed that it is not hard for them, but the fact is they ARE creating new genders by forcing their bodies to ingest chemicals it does not naturally produce. They are taking medical drugs engineered by science to change their genetic makeup.

It's an observation not an insult. There is a difference. An insult would be if I claimed they were evil or somehow wrong. The truth of the matter is that society is changing and the effects on all of us are apparent.



posted on May, 31 2016 @ 08:43 AM
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originally posted by: SaturnFX

originally posted by: Annee
Did you live in the 50s when roles were still pretty much defined?

I did. It sucked.

You are discussing society norms, which I agree is lame overall. the women as default thought of as the maid while the man is meant to be the hard worker. women must learn to be pleasant and non opinionated, men to be not interested in almost anything women are interested in, etc.
Those aren't gender norms, those are societal norms from a relic era of women suppression.
The 50s adults were raised by parents that got their ideas from pre-womans liberation movements.

Dont confuse the two though, todays discussion on gender norms, smashing gender ideas is not the same argument. Trans people are the most at odds with these gender fluid / gender is just a society construct types. Society norms may be. gender is not.


Precisely... maybe I should make a new thread about the difference between Gender Norms and Societal Norms. This is exactly why I mentioned the Chumash. They are a society that has always recognized a woman's power to be able to lead but they did not have massive upheavals of issues within the tribes when a majority of women fell into caretaker positions.



posted on May, 31 2016 @ 09:02 AM
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originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: SomeDumbBroad
. . . fanatical feminists . . .


BTW, how many fanatical feminists do you know today?


A majority of them. Feminists in today's society (as in the current generation) has taken a GOOD thing and ran with it. When we needed feminism, it helped to heal our society. We have some of the best laws in the world when it comes to protecting women's rights. (Aside from Singapore where even if you touch a woman on the arm in public and she does not want it she can have you arrested....a little extreme but you get the idea). Feminism today has become a parade of women demanding that men be apologists. There are some TRUE causes that do need feminism and they are being drowned out by thing like Amber Roses' Slut Walk ( S**t walk website ) and other causes that are like it. TODAY's gender is falling away from gender norms and trying to force society to accept different societal norms that what it is used to. OF COURSE there is going to be tension...

AGAIN this thread is about the history of GENDER normality throughout HISTORY.

I even made a point several times that women throughout history have held positions of power and were respected members of the community. Now my words are being blatantly ignored and this thread has gone away from civil discussion about gender and turned into one about the just cause of feminism so let's talk about it...


Feminism is a LOST CAUSE ON TODAYS SOCIETY. Women are not BETTER than men. We are not to be treated special. If you want special treatment and awards and pats on the back for being a female, you are not a feminist. We got what we wanted! Why must it continue? Why are we still crying sufferage? What have we suffered from in this generation? Women out-number men in university ( National Center For Education Statistics ). Then there is the cry that there are not many women in CEO positions. Well, think about how long it has been since we have ended suffrage and the "wage gap" (which does not exist either, btw). Now think about how amazing it IS that there are any female CEOs at all considering the time lapse. Why is that not being discussed? Why must we drag men down who built this country just so we can take his place? Why not create our OWN niche in the business world? Why must everyone conform for the comfortably of others. Everyone has a right to be comfortable in public but there comes a time when we must sit down and understand that not everyone is going to like us all the time. Isn't that what we teach children, ffs?



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