Gender roles and the effects of shifting these roles on modern day society.

a reply to: SomeDumbBroad

The religious thing was more a dig at those cults where the bloke goes off to work but won't hear of the wife having a job.

What it comes down to, if you can afford to have the choice, is what works for you as a family.
I do think our kids benefited from staying home until school age though, but I wouldn't dream of telling someone else they were a bad mum for working.

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originally posted by: SprocketUK
a reply to: SomeDumbBroad

The religious thing was more a dig at those cults where the bloke goes off to work but won't hear of the wife having a job.

What it comes down to, if you can afford to have the choice, is what works for you as a family.
I do think our kids benefited from staying home until school age though, but I wouldn't dream of telling someone else they were a bad mum for working.

I agree. My father left when I was 3 and my mother supported me on minimum wage for 3 years before moving in my step dad. Being a parent on either end is no easy feat. However there is a lot of evidence that suggests there is a decline in society that is conducive with the parents being away so much. It is unfortunate that we are witnessing a mass shift in behavioral health issues simply because we cannot economically sustain a decent living environment without 2 incomes per household.

You see... what everyone is doing is ignoring the larger issue which is that Western Society has been made ridiculous by social engineers and what is being discussed didn't/doesn't exist outside of a religious context.

Gender roles, regarding work, who takes care of the kids even terms like "Patriarchy", these things are a construct of religion. I see women promoting that women "were less than animals" or things to that effect and i'll say this... A: largely within the context of religion, B: particularly within the monotheistic faiths or nations competing or in contact with them and that opinion that it is male vs female is simply stressed by academia but not historically true at all...

The truth of history is that a fair degree of equality has often been the norm... "Until" from outside a civilization of Men (usually, not always backed by religion) invade or put pressure on from the outside. While I wont say "romantic love" was the norm, usually marriages were arranged (our concept of romance isn't necessarily a great arrangement, look at our divorce rates) truth is treating marriage like a partnership a business for the sake of family and not being preoccupied by fickle desire I will not count here as an abuse, it's simply our current culture, one could argue it works poorly to base a union not on family and business but lust and infatuation.

But abuse? women not being allowed to work, foot binding, beating, not having a say in the family or politics, lack of respect, used for sex without choice... these items aren't real, there are very specific periods in which women's rights were over run depending upon what region you are in.

Look at today, the West opened it's doors wide in regards to rights for women, what is happening? an entire region of the world is rising to remove that, Islam. This is the actual perpetual story of history, not that gender roles were so hard lined or women didn't have freedoms but rather when women are given those freedoms "other" men arrive and kill the Men and take their women away regressing the process back to start.

Prior to Islam and then the occupation of the British, Hindu culture was the talk of a "golden age for women" the Nordic cultures were absolutely equal even in regards to combat "until" Christianity. Prior to the rise of Christianity the West was relatively enlightened on said subjects just look at mary magdalene, a disciple (at the least) of christ, after the fact her words were obscured, chiseled out of stone and it is said she was the last of women priestesses (not a whore) but rather part of religious practices that included sexuality being worshiped, little know is that even Judaism was a duality with a Male and Female aspect of god from inception, the period from 200 Bc-200 Ad marking a time in which literate women from Spain to China were executed for reading etc, etc...

Going back through what we call recorded history in fact if one goes past (what we say) is the start of history around the world all one actually finds is "goddess worship" is actually the norm for at least 15,000 years prior without interruption.

What am I saying?

Gender roles almost unanimously equalize the way people want them to be in the absence of organized religion, even in Asia the most recent abuses came ushered in under confusion-ism and the real issue isn't men vs women but rather came in the form of Deity worship as a male dominated ideology, from 7000 BC to 1000 BC there were Pantheons in which women had representation and with the rise of Monotheism it vanished entirely where ever monotheism went.

It isn't a battle of the sexes folks, society left alone yes forms male and female roles, ones in which the respective sexes usually take the jobs they are best at without much grief being given if a woman wants to be a sex magic priestess or a housewife or work on pottery or be a warrior or whatever, if she had the moxy there was nothing to stop her... What IS real in the battle of the sexes is "God says she can't"

To me this debate is trivial, the real issue is religion, that's the real battle ground, once again here we are, women have achieved whatever they want, sure, it's lightly biased in terms of the idiotic social warrior perspective, the reality is most women "choose" to be mothers so there are light disparities but nowhere other than in the religious arenas does most modern society say "she can't" it might be slightly harder but that is the numeric's of choice. We sit here with basic equality, some men will be pigs some women will be (sorry) b176hes. The micro debates are simply the debates about handfuls of jerks.

the real threat is on the horizon yet again, Religion, the minute we achieve some sort of parity/happiness there is a horde on the horizon brainwashed from birth to see genuine gentlemen as wimps to be slaughtered, sexually free women as dirty whores to be bred and enslaved in the name of god...

so please stop fighting the nearly non existent battle of the sexes in our society while the Great "All Father" of whatever form has once again sent his minions to put a stop to it.

a reply to: SomeDumbBroad

Bang on there.
One of the reasons I quit the job I had then was it effectively made my wife a single parent for so long.

These days I'm home every night and all weekend. It's so much easier when there are two of you to deal with all the dramas

a reply to: criticalhit

Gender roles, regarding work, who takes care of the kids even terms like "Patriarchy", these things are a construct of religion,

These things are constructs of function not religion.

These roles manifest not out of desire but necessity. Men are stronger, more durable and operate better under stress (has been pointed out). That makes them better for hunting, war and so on. While the men are off hunting or at war the women have to raise the children, clean, pick berries and whatever else the tribe has to do in order to stay alive until the men return from war or hunting parties.

a reply to: onequestion

Essentially what i said, yes, as the norm women "choose" the jobs that don't involve let's say... carrying a dead Mastadon, duhr.

But only religious thought says "they can't" if they want to

There is in fact virtually no society in history in which a Philosophy/religion" isn't the cause for such thinking, constructs that define these abuses and atrocities by nature and pervert the natural way of being with ingrained rules, always based around an ideology of higher power making it so.

a reply to: criticalhit

That was much easier to read thanks and yes I agree.

So can anyone devalue my original post or shall we consider this matter adjourned?

a reply to: SomeDumbBroad

Men and women are different. We are biologically and genetically different. We have different strengths and weaknesses. The modern feminist would like us to believe that we are all the same, and we just aren't. It is okay to be different. I do not understand why we do not celebrate the differences between the genders instead of trying to push the falsehood that we are the same. Different does not mean worse or better, just different. One of the most notable differences is in physical prowess. Men on average are built differently. Does that mean that men are better? No. There has been a recent push to pay professional female athletes the same as their male counterparts, even though they draw in way less crowds, and way less money.

The USA Women's Olympic hockey team just lost to a boys high school hockey team while preparing to take home the gold, as they are thought to be the best team in the world. Anecdotal but I think it proves my point.
Women's Olympic Hockey Team Loses To Boy's High School Team

originally posted by: Winstonian
a reply to: SomeDumbBroad

Men and women are different. We are biologically and genetically different. We have different strengths and weaknesses. The modern feminist would like us to believe that we are all the same, and we just aren't. It is okay to be different. I do not understand why we do not celebrate the differences between the genders instead of trying to push the falsehood that we are the same. Different does not mean worse or better, just different. One of the most notable differences is in physical prowess. Men on average are built differently. Does that mean that men are better? No. There has been a recent push to pay professional female athletes the same as their male counterparts, even though they draw in way less crowds, and way less money.

The USA Women's Olympic hockey team just lost to a boys high school hockey team while preparing to take home the gold, as they are thought to be the best team in the world. Anecdotal but I think it proves my point.
Women's Olympic Hockey Team Loses To Boy's High School Team

Apparently biology, science and history have no place in the feminist agenda

originally posted by: criticalhit
a reply to: onequestion

Essentially what i said, yes, as the norm women "choose" the jobs that don't involve let's say... carrying a dead Mastadon, duhr.

But only religious thought says "they can't" if they want to

There is in fact virtually no society in history in which a Philosophy/religion" isn't the cause for such thinking, constructs that define these abuses and atrocities by nature and pervert the natural way of being with ingrained rules, always based around an ideology of higher power making it so.

So youa re saying people shouldn't even think, nevermind being religious?

I see you expanded your definition there. It was just religion that was the figurative "devil" in your equation, but you just moved that goalpost to include philosophy as well. So basically, any higher order thought and reason should be abhorred in modern society?

I wouldn't want to live in such a world. It's one thing to be told I am not allowed to be religious, but then to be told I am not even to think on top of that?

You were going to have to kill me with the first one, but please make sure you sow my ashes with salt or something if you add in the second.

a reply to: Freija

Soo.....................

I think one of the commenters to the first article summed it up great:

“Evidence that gender has a biological basis…” What other basis would there be? Spiritual? Magical and superstitious nonsense. “psychological?” The mind is what the brain does and the brain is biology. Psychopathy and depression have biological basis too. Saying that there is a biological basis that has been uncovered that is associated with transgender identity does not prove causation or that the state can’t be a pathological.

a reply to: SomeDumbBroad
Not quite adjourned yet.

The topic is about gender roles throughout history and how they have effects on the population today...And by creating "new" genders it creates the same stress of taking out our gender roles.

I guess that's a matter of perspective. If you are a "new" gender, I would imagine not being forced to conform to "historical" gender roles is quite liberating and freeing? On the other hand, if those traditionalists desperately clinging to culturally driven gender norms are so worried about "new genders", maybe there's a bit of insecurity going on there?

You know, when everyone had a place and was important, before everyone became self centered and special snowflakes.

You mean when everyone had a place in your little homogenized ticky tacky world and wasn't different from you. I would have thought you were too young to be telling folks to get off your lawn but I guess I am wrong?

Some of the things you said in the first few posts made some sense but then bringing "transgender" into the mix was a fallacious confluence of thoughts that derailed the train you thought you were conducting otherwise I wouldn't have become involved and sent your thread off on a tangent.

As male and female everything about us is different. Our bone structure, our genetic makeup... everything. We all have estrogen and testosterone inside of us and we all have a different balance of those chemicals but that does not change the genetic makeup we are born with.

When we study behavior in lower animals who's cognitive abilities are lesser than our own, we use the word instinct rather than intellect to explain these innate behaviors. When we use the word instinct to describe human behaviors, people get all upset because us higher animals are only supposed to be driven by critical thinking, logic, free will and all that but yet these "instincts" still smolder in the ancient part of our reptilian brain and are evidenced as certain predispositions we consider innate behavioral and aptitudinal differences between the sexes. (which are mostly stereotyped generalizations)

Regardless of our sophistication, the hunter/gatherer dynamic is indeed hardwired to a degree and we are of a sexually dimorphic physicality but as we are thinking, logical and free willed beasts, or at least like to believe we are, biology is not necessarily destiny. Our consciousness is what divides from pure instinct and when talking about gender roles, those innate predispositions and hardwirings can't be discussed as our be all, end all driving force without accounting for the higher brain's cultural and societal learned roles. There are clearly aspects of gender that are indeed social constructs but I'm going to offer my opinion that none of us is purely nature that doesn't also have a whole heap o' nurture (culture and society) mixed in.

If it weren't, we wouldn't have women and men taking up traditional social roles and occupations once considered the domain of the other sex. All men aren't club wielding Neanderthals stalking the Savannah for their next kill nor all women suckling a baby at each teat while in the kitchen making sammiches.

You mention the sex hormones but then go on to say that they do not change the genetic makeup we are born with. Incorrect because these chemicals indeed are a huge part of our makeup and the fetal development process. From puberty through adolescence and adulthood, these same chemicals shape our personalities, our temperaments, our moods and our biological imperatives driving survival of the species.

When we try to change that forcibly it becomes an issue. Why do you think that there is a rise in suicide among the transgender population?... When they have foreign chemicals invading their bodies, there are obvious emotional and mental consequences. It's very basic logic that is being blatantly ignored by the liberalist community.

This is where you went over the tipping point on this whole transgender business and if you would have left these comments out of your thread, it would have probably gone as you expected? You've demonstrated a true lack of knowledge, decided to throw "liberalist community" out as a pejorative and pushed the buttons of those that know anything about the transgender condition, the administration of or effects of these "foreign chemicals" you speak of and particularly for those of us that have had families or loved ones touched by it. In spite of your "trans friends", you really don't know anything about trans people and particularly about those that do change sex.

You've mentioned your Baptist grandmother and even if you profess to not believe in sky fairies, her influences have come down through her children to you, probably along with regional (bible belt) conservative cultural values and it seems somewhat odd to me that a young woman your age is so deeply steeped in them even if you won't acknowledge it. There's absolutely nothing wrong with anything you want to do with your life or how you want to live it but when it comes to making adversarial and inaccurate comments about how what other people do is affecting you without coming right out and making your point, don't expect to not get some heat for it. My guess, is you're smart enough to not rag on transgender issues directly or make it about bathrooms but still managed a backhanded way to get your digs in. You may claim innocence or ignorance but others have no problem seeing through your thinly veiled contempt and disdain.

Nobody is saying you can't choose family over career but I almost have to wonder why you aren't barefoot and pregnant already instead of sticking your nose in things and worrying that the sky is falling and we're on the verge of the apocalypse and downfall of society because there's other people in the world that are different from you messing up your pretty little vision of rigid gendered behaviors. It seems that's what you're on about but I'm not quite sure? Something about he that is without snowflakes casting the first stone comes to mind here?

You are young and questioning and still defining yourself and the world around you and perceiving things that don't quite fit in your wheelhouse that are unsettling or just different and maybe uncomfortable? I know we get called a gang or a lot of other things but some of us have sixty or seventy years witness to change from civil rights, to women's rights, to gay rights and now, trans rights (which is hardly a new issue). There are some of us with the lived experience you've probably only read about in your women's/gender studies textbooks so you would do well to lend an ear this "liberalists" mob that has been around the block a time or two that has seen change. Real change and it's not a matter of politics or left/right paradigms but just some "old wives" sharing wisdoms about the happiness that comes in life from just doing you and letting others do them.

Life is so much better in color and if you're opening your eyes and mind only to the grey, are locked in and inflexible to change, it's going to be a long and sad road ahead. Don't worry, the gender binary and gender roles will always exist and those that don't match up to your level of perfection and clarity are no threat to the sanctity of of the high horse you're riding on.

You know, when everyone had a place and was important, before everyone became self centered and special snowflakes.

just when was it that "everyone had a place" again??

there's always been those that didn't fit into the norm of society..
divorced women, disabled people, abandoned families, working mothers, working grandmothers, pregnant teens, fathers that didn't provide, fathers that weren't monogamous, ect.
some of these people had a far less place in society than they do now! divorced women were shunned and looked down on usually blamed for not being able to keep their man happy. pregnant teens were treated as trash, working mothers worked for about the same amount as what was once called their Egg Money... the mentally disabled were treated horribly.
so I am asking, just when was it that everyone had a place?

originally posted by: ReprobateRaccoon
We can learn a lot from the past, but we need to live based on our environment TODAY.

Rather than worry about gender roles and how other people are living their lives, focus on raising your kids based on your beliefs and moral values. Everything else will fall into place.

As long as the almighty State is preaching humanist values at school how can parents I still their own values? Unless of course you believe that indoctrination small children into a culture of transgender sex operations is the way to go for society?

originally posted by: SomeDumbBroad
a reply to: TheLaughingGod

Sigh... There you go again on your high horse assuming you know how I hire people. Maybe next time take off the blinders of your own bias before assuming someone else has them. I've said what I have to say on this matter and you've been pretty upfront about your feelings so, yes, it is adjourned.

That was meant for freija

originally posted by: dawnstar

You know, when everyone had a place and was important, before everyone became self centered and special snowflakes.

just when was it that "everyone had a place" again??

there's always been those that didn't fit into the norm of society..
divorced women, disabled people, abandoned families, working mothers, working grandmothers, pregnant teens, fathers that didn't provide, fathers that weren't monogamous, ect.
some of these people had a far less place in society than they do now! divorced women were shunned and looked down on usually blamed for not being able to keep their man happy. pregnant teens were treated as trash, working mothers worked for about the same amount as what was once called their Egg Money... the mentally disabled were treated horribly.
so I am asking, just when was it that everyone had a place?

I'm ancient societies they made use for everyone. Being "left out" is something much more new to society