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The Kaaba in Mecca, Temple to Hermes?

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posted on May, 25 2016 @ 10:07 PM
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Keef Halak Habibis,

I will be making the case that the Quabba (cube)of Mecca is in fact a repackaged temple (Herma) to Hermes/Mercury, and that many of the customs of Hajj are identical to the worship of Hermes/Mercury.


Lets begin.
the Greek Herma

Origin
In the earliest times Greek divinities were worshipped in the form of a heap of stones or a shapeless column of stone or wood. In many parts of Greece there were piles of stones by the sides of roads, especially at their crossings, and on the boundaries of lands. The religious respect paid to such heaps of stones, especially at the meeting of roads, is shown by the custom of each passer-by throwing a stone on to the heap or anointing it with oil.[2] Later there was the addition of a head and phallus to the column, which became quadrangular (the number 4 was sacred to Hermes)


The Islamic stoning of the devil during hajj

During the ritual, Muslim pilgrims throw pebbles at three walls (formerly pillars), called jamarāt, in the city of Mina just east of Mecca. It is one of a series of ritual acts that must be performed in the Hajj.


The common theme of lobbing stones at a larger stone or pillar is an age old practice of wayfarers, especially at crossroads.

Mecca, being a huge crossroads of trade in the middle east in ancient times would logically worship the god of crossroads.

Another major part of the worship of Hermes/Mercury and the Hajj involves a sacred well....

Roman worship of Mercury's Sacred Well

Worship
Because Mercury was not one of the early deities surviving from the Roman Kingdom, he was not assigned a flamen ("priest"), but he did have his own major festival, on 15 May, the Mercuralia. During the Mercuralia, merchants sprinkled water from his sacred well near the Porta Capena on their heads.


Muslim sacred well of Zamzam

The Well of Zamzam (or the Zamzam Well, or just Zamzam; Arabic: زمزم‎‎) is a well located within the Masjid al-Haram in Mecca, Saudi Arabia, 20 m (66 ft) east of the Kaaba,[1] the holiest place in Islam. According to Islamic belief, it is a miraculously generated source of water from God, which began thousands of years ago when Abraham's (Ibrāhīm) infant son Ishmael (ʼIsmāʻīl) was thirsty and kept crying for water. Millions of pilgrims visit the well each year while performing the Hajj or Umrah pilgrimages, in order to drink its water.


Another important common theme is of animal sacrifice, especially the Ram.
Hermes being called the Ram bearer, and the muslims honoring abraham sacrificing a ram

Hermes As God of Sacrifices

It is also possible that since the beginning he has been a deity with shamanic attributes linked to divination, reconciliation, magic, sacrifices, and initiation and contact with other planes of existence, a role of mediator between the worlds of the visible and invisible.[96]


In ancient Greek cult, kriophoros (Greek: κριοφόρος) or criophorus, the "ram-bearer," is a figure that commemorates the solemn sacrifice of a ram. It becomes an epithet of Hermes: Hermes Kriophoros


Animal Sacrifice at the Hajj

Animal sacrifice
After the casting of stones, animals are slaughtered to commemorate the story of Abraham and Ishmael. Traditionally the pilgrims slaughtered the animal themselves, or oversaw the slaughtering. Today many pilgrims buy a sacrifice voucher in Mecca before the greater Hajj begins, which allows an animal to be slaughtered in their name on the 10th, without the pilgrim being physically present.


The most striking theme to me is the singular importance of the Angel Gabriel in Islamic Belief.
He delivered the Koran to Muhammad, delivered the black stone of the Kaaba to Ibrahim, and is a general celestial delivery guy.
Much like Hermes, the ever-lovin messenger of the gods.

Hermes as the Angel Gabriel

from the complete idiots guide to world mythology:

Muslim and Judeo- Christian angelic mythologies, the Archangel Gabriel is second in rank only to Michael. ... as Heaven's messenger, bugler, or trumpeter, causing him to be seen as a Christian form of the Greco-Roman god Hermes/ Mercury.


Gabriel as Quaaba Delivery Boy


The pre-Islamic Kaaba housed the Black Stone and statues of pagan gods. Muhammad reportedly cleansed the Kaaba of idols upon his victorious return to Mecca, returning the shrine to the monotheism of Ibrahim. The Black Stone is believed to have been given to Ibrahim by the angel Gabriel and is revered by Muslims.


So what do y'all think?

Halal or Haram?

link
mercury
history of mecca
Hajj
Kaaba
Hermes
Herma




posted on May, 25 2016 @ 10:24 PM
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a reply to: dashen

I can't see a single legitimate connection between the Kaaba and Hermes Trismegistes.

Hermes goes back to Thoth who was the god of wisdom and Hermertic philosophy was influential to early Christianity.

Hermes symbol is the caduceus staff with two serpents.


I'm sorry but the Kaaba has nothing to do with Hermes.


Hermes was benevolent and wise and if you are attempting to make Islam look bad (it isn't) you should find something that is bad.


Hermes is good. Thrice great is what he was called.



posted on May, 25 2016 @ 10:28 PM
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All religions borrow themes from one another, no religion is exempt from this, it's called cultural diffusion.

As empires invade other cultures throughout history they take their myths and integrate them into their own society, molding them to fit their own culture and in the process easing the transition of those people of the conquered cultures into their own.

The same thing happened with Christianity where the Romans melded their mythology with the culture of the Jews. This is why Jesus' story has so many parallels with pagan themes and astrology, it was a power move by the Romans to maintain their power. This transition from paganism to Christianity led to the Byzantine Empire, a continuation of the Roman Empire. Instead of paganism being the official state religion they created a new religion with elements of both paganism and Judaism called Christianity.

Islam is no different, which is what you pointed out here. Hermes is also within Christianity, you just have to know where to look.



posted on May, 25 2016 @ 10:32 PM
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a reply to: dashen

Is that a good thing or bad thing?

Arent all the Abrahamic religions based on pagan worship?

Horus, golden bull Taurus, new age of Aries the Ram, ram's horn etc.



posted on May, 25 2016 @ 10:32 PM
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originally posted by: Parazurvan
a reply to: dashen

I can't see a single legitimate connection between the Kaaba and Hermes Trismegistes.



did you try reading the OP?



posted on May, 25 2016 @ 10:35 PM
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originally posted by: gladtobehere
a reply to: dashen

Is that a good thing or bad thing?

Arent all the Abrahamic religions based on pagan worship?

Horus, golden bull Taurus, new age of Aries the Ram, ram's horn etc.



Good or Bad is what you do with it.

Mecca was a pagan hub before Islam.
it should be no wonder that the customs remained but under a new Boss.



posted on May, 25 2016 @ 10:41 PM
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originally posted by: Parazurvan
a reply to: dashen


I'm sorry but the Kaaba has nothing to do with Hermes.


Dont be sorry, if you dont know what a Herma and its connection to the worship of Hermes is you wont understand how it relates to the Kaaba either



posted on May, 25 2016 @ 10:44 PM
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a reply to: dashen

I did read the OP and I am also familiar with the Quran and Corpus Hermeticum.

I don't see any philosophy that could be identified as Hermetic in the Quran or Islam.


The quotes of Jesus have Hermetic philosophy, but they didn't make the Quran.



posted on May, 25 2016 @ 10:47 PM
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originally posted by: dashen

originally posted by: Parazurvan
a reply to: dashen


I'm sorry but the Kaaba has nothing to do with Hermes.


Dont be sorry, if you dont know what a Herma and its connection to the worship of Hermes is you wont understand how it relates to the Kaaba either


The Kaaba has no origins in Hermetic philosophy even if some devotees reverenced a stone that is not the source of the Kaaba reverence in Islam.

Similarities don't always mean imitation.



posted on May, 25 2016 @ 10:50 PM
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originally posted by: Parazurvan

originally posted by: dashen

originally posted by: Parazurvan
a reply to: dashen


I'm sorry but the Kaaba has nothing to do with Hermes.


Dont be sorry, if you dont know what a Herma and its connection to the worship of Hermes is you wont understand how it relates to the Kaaba either


The Kaaba has no origins in Hermetic philosophy even if some devotees reverenced a stone that is not the source of the Kaaba reverence in Islam.

Similarities don't always mean imitation.


oh really?
because youre gloriously incorrect
Hermes_Trismegistus#Islamic_tradition

i bolded the important bit for you



Islamic tradition[edit] See also: Idris (prophet) Pages from a 14th-century Arabic manuscript of the Cyranides, a text attributed to Hermes Trismegistus Sayyid Ahmed Amiruddin has pointed out that Hermes Trismegistus has a major place in Islamic tradition. He writes, "Hermes Trismegistus is mentioned in the Quran in verse 19:56-57:"Mention, in the Book, Idris, that he was truthful, a prophet. We took him up to a high place". The Jabirian corpus contains the oldest documentable source for the Emerald Tablet of Hermes Trismegistus, translated for the Hashemite Caliph of Baghdad, Harun al-Rashid the Abbasid. Jābir ibn Hayyān (Geber), a Shiite, identified as Jābir al-Sufi, was student of Ja'far al-Sadiq, Husayn ibn 'Ali's great grandson. For the Abbasid's and the Alid's, the knowledge of Hermes Trismegistus was considered sacred, and an inheritance of the Ahl al-Bayt. These writings were recorded by the Ikhwan al-Safa, and subsequently translated from Arabic into Persian, Turkish, Hebrew, Russian, and into English by Isaac Newton. In the writings, the Master of Masters, Hermes Trismegistus, is identified as Idris, the infallible Prophet who traveled to outer space from Egypt, and to heaven. There, he brought back Adam and the Black Stone when he landed on earth in India.[26] Imad Jafar, in his essay "Enoch in the Islamic Tradition," writes: "The lore that developed around Idrīs’ legendary gnosis led to him being further identified with Hermes Trismegistus (Hirmīs) ... whereby Muslims began to acknowledge Idrīs as the founder of alchemy as well." He continues: "In the Illuminationistic philosophy of the renowned Persian Islamic sage and saint Suhrawardī (c. 1154-1191), Idrīs was revered fundamentally as the teacher of the ancient sages amongst the Hindus, Persians, Babylonians, Egyptians, and Greeks up to the time of Aristotle ... When these Greco-Alexandrian wisdom sciences and the gnostic lore of the Sabaeans of Harrān – who regarded Hermes as their prophet and his writings as their scriptures – spread amongst the Islamic community, Idrīs was immediately identified ... with the founder of Hermeticism ... Mulla Sadra (1571-1636), one of the greatest Muslim sages of the later period, who said: “Know that Wisdom (hikmah) began originally with Adam and his progeny Seth, Hermes, who is Idrīs, and Noah, because the world is never deprived of a person upon whom the science of Unity and eschatology rests. And it is the greatest Hermes who propagated it (hikmah) throughout the regions of the world and different countries manifested it and made it emanate upon the ‘true worshipers’. He is indeed the ‘Father of philosophers’ and the master of those who are the masters of the sciences"."[14] According to ancient Arab genealogists, Muhammad the Prophet, who also is believed to have traveled to outer space on the night of Isra and Mi'raj to the heavens, is a direct lineal descendant of Hermes Trismegistus. Ibn Kathir said, "As for Idris...He is in the genealogical chain of the Prophet Muhammad, except according to one genealogist..Ibn Ishaq says he was the first who wrote with the Pen. There was a span of 380 years between him and the life of Adam. Many of the scholars allege that he was the first to speak about this, and they call him Thrice-Great Hermes [Hermes Trismegistus]".[26] Ahmad al-Buni considered himself a follower of the hermetic teachings and his contemporary, Ibn Arabi, mentioned Hermes Trismegistus in his writings. The Futūḥāt al-Makkiyya of Ibn Arabi speaks of his travels to 'vast cities (outside earth), possessing technologies far superior then ours'[27] and meeting with the Twelfth Imam, the Ninth (generation) from the Third (al-Husayn the third Imam) (Amiruddin referring here to the Masters of Wisdom from the Emerald Tablet), who also ascended to the heavens, and is still alive like his ancestor Hermes Trismegistus".[28] Antoine Faivre, in The Eternal Hermes (1995), has pointed out that Hermes Trismegistus has a place in the Islamic tradition, though the name Hermes does not appear in the Qur'an. Hagiographers and chroniclers of the first centuries of the Islamic Hegira quickly identified Hermes Trismegistus with Idris,[29] the nabi of surahs 19.57 and 21.85, whom the Arabs also identified with Enoch (cf. Genesis 5.18–24). Idris/Hermes was termed "Thrice-Wise" Hermes Trismegistus because he had a threefold origin: the first Hermes, comparable to Thoth, was a "civilizing hero," an initiator into the mysteries of the divine science and wisdom that animate the world: he carved the principles of this sacred science in hieroglyphs. The second Hermes, in Babylon, was the initiator of Pythagoras. The third Hermes was the first teacher of alchemy. "A faceless prophet," writes the Islamicist Pierre Lory, "Hermes possesses no concrete or salient characteristics, differing in this regard from most of the major figures of the Bible and the Quran."[30] A common interpretation of the representation of "Trismegistus" as "thrice great" recalls the three characterizations of Idris: as a messenger of god, or a prophet; as a source of wisdom, or hikmet (wisdom from hokmah); and as a king of the world order, or a "sultanate." These are referred to as, müselles bin ni'me. A late Arabic writer wrote of the Sabaeans that their religion had a sect of star worshipers who held their doctrine to come from Hermes Trismegistus through the prophet Adimun.[31]

edit on 25-5-2016 by dashen because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 25 2016 @ 11:04 PM
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Ironically, I'm more inclined to believe you than reject you as far as the Zamzam water and Devil stoning ritual are concerned. I say that because neither of those 2 rituals is in the Qur'an's directions for Hajj, but they've been added to the Hajj rituals anyway (they're mentioned in tradition). I'd also add the "black stone" to the list of suspect rituals, since it's not mentioned in the Qur'an either. In fact, tradition claims 5 years before the Prophet Muhammad received the Prophethood, he placed the black stone in/on the Kaaba. Yes, that's before he became a Muslim and when the Hanif controlled the Kaaba.

Though I'm almost completely positive that these 3 traditions were directly added by the Hanif, who were the Abrahamic sect that controlled the Kaaba before it was rededicated to Islam. But there's no telling where they got those traditions, even though they claimed to follow the teachings of the Prophet Abraham. The Hanif literally idolized him and his family, to the point of praying to idols of the Prophet Abraham and his family (among others) and saying they shared power with God.

For the record, many of the Prophet Muhammad's clan were Hanif. His clan controlled the Kaaba and the surrounding area before he received the Prophethood, and I suspect they brought many of their traditions when they eventually converted to Islam. This is literally why the Prophet Muhammad and the first bunch of Caliphs had outlawed Hadith in favor of strictly teaching from the Qur'an: because the Hanif had their own "Hadith" that supposedly had corrupted versions of the Prophet Abraham's teachings and traditions.

Of course, my research is incomplete so take it all with a grain of salt lol. And it's frustratingly hard to find accurate information on the original Hanif, though there is "information" out there (As in, I think a lot of the accepted stuff is false). And here's an interesting side note: I was talking w/my parents just yesterday and my Dad said one of his associates had brought him back a gallon of Zamzam water lol. I'm reading that many products claiming to be "Zamzam Water" are actually incredibly high in arsenic and that Saudi Arabia prohibits exports of actual Zamzam water. So yeah...



posted on May, 25 2016 @ 11:19 PM
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a reply to: dashen

That is only if you consider Enoch and Hermes as the same person.

Idris is Enoch in Islam. So some people say Enoch, Thoth and Hermes are the same person.


Which is debatable. But I said HERMETIC PHILOSOPHY IN THE QURAN. I did not say Idris' name. Idris is mentioned in the Quran not Hermes, Idris is Enoch.

Enoch was not the focus of the schools of Hermetic philosophy.

Any identification of the 3 as one is conjecture based on similarities between them. It is in no way certain.

Although Idris is certainly Enoch.



posted on May, 25 2016 @ 11:26 PM
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a reply to: dashen

But when Islam canonizes the Corpus Hermeticum and you can prove to me that Enoch wrote it, maybe I will change my mind.

I can tell you that the Greek Hermes is based on Thoth of Egypt and not Enoch of Judaism.

So even if the Jews Enoch is based off Thoth that doesn't make the unrelated Hermetic schools Hermes the same, just based off the same.

Enoch was known in Egypt. Pa-Hanok means house of Enoch and is the source of the word Phoenix and Phoenicians.



posted on May, 25 2016 @ 11:34 PM
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originally posted by: Parazurvan
a reply to: dashen


Although Idris is certainly Enoch.


how do you know?


These writings were recorded by the Ikhwan al-Safa, and subsequently translated from Arabic into Persian, Turkish, Hebrew, Russian, and into English by Isaac Newton. In the writings, the Master of Masters, Hermes Trismegistus, is identified as Idris, the infallible Prophet who traveled to outer space from Egypt, and to heaven. There, he brought back Adam and the Black Stone when he landed on earth in India



posted on May, 25 2016 @ 11:37 PM
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a reply to: dashen

I know Idris is Enoch because I study Islam. It's common knowledge also.



posted on May, 25 2016 @ 11:40 PM
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a reply to: dashen

As far as that quote you provided I have no faith in it and it doesn't agree with the Quran or orthodox Islam where Enoch is called Idris.

But to propose that Muslims would erect a temple to Hermes or Idris/Enoch is preposterous on many levels.

Not a temple to Hermes. I like to play connect the dots myself but there are holes in your theory.

Or would you rather I just agree with you that Muslims secretly worship a Greek god?
edit on 25-5-2016 by Parazurvan because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 25 2016 @ 11:45 PM
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originally posted by: Parazurvan
a reply to: dashen

I know Idris is Enoch because I study Islam. It's common knowledge also.


are you familiar with the Ikhwan al-Safa? Because they clearly disagree with you.



posted on May, 25 2016 @ 11:47 PM
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a reply to: dashen

I am not familiar with them, but they can disagree all they want I know orthodox Islam does not teach that.



posted on May, 25 2016 @ 11:51 PM
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originally posted by: Parazurvan
a reply to: dashen

I am not familiar with them, but they can disagree all they want I know orthodox Islam does not teach that.


well, you really should get familiar with them because orthodox islam is heavily influenced by their teachings



posted on May, 25 2016 @ 11:53 PM
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youtu.be...

Maybe?



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