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Bruniquel Cave's Mysterious Neanderthal stone circles.

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posted on May, 25 2016 @ 01:02 PM
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Much ado has been made lately about how advanced neanderthal was compared to the old popular image of an animalistic cave dweller.
Bruniquel cave, in southern France, is shedding some light on this contentious subject.



wo mysterious stone rings found deep inside a French cave were probably built by Neanderthals about 176,500 years ago, proving that the ancient cousins of humans were capable of more complex behavior than previously thought, scientists say.

The structures were made from hundreds of pillar-shaped mineral deposits, called stalagmites, which were chopped to a similar length and laid out in two oval patterns up to 40 centimeters (16 inches) inches high. They were discovered by chance in 1990, after remaining untouched for tens of thousands of years because a rockslide had closed the mouth of the cave at Bruniquel in southwest France.

While previous research had suggested the structures pre-dated the arrival of modern humans in Europe around 45,000 years ago, the notion that Neanderthals could have made them didn't fit long-held assumptions that these early humans were incapable of the kind of complex behavior necessary to work underground.






The depth into the cave at which the structures were found indicates a high level social cooperation and a level of thinking on par with AMH.




"Their presence at 336 meters (368 yards) from the entrance of the cave indicates that humans from this period had already mastered the underground environment, which can be considered a major step in human modernity," the researchers concluded in a study published online Wednesday by the journal Nature.

Jaubert ruled out that the carefully constructed rings, which show traces of fire, could have come about by chance or been assembled by animals such as the bears and wolves whose bones were found near the entrance of the cave.

"The origin of the structures is undeniably human. It really cannot be otherwise," he told The Associated Press.

The Neanderthals who built them must have had a "project" to go so deep into a cave where there was no natural light, said Jaubert. They probably explored underground as a group and cooperated to build the rings, using fire to illuminate the cave, he said. "These are exceptional tours, certainly for extraordinary reasons we do not yet know."

"Bruniquel cave (shows) that circular structures were a part of Neanderthals' material culture," said Roebroeks, who called the rings "an intriguing find, which underlines that a lot of Neanderthal material culture, including their 'architecture,' simply did not survive in the open."




Neanderthal rings Of Bruniquel Cave

With the finds of the last couple decades, have shown a very different picture HSN, than has been popularized over the last 100 years.
HSN has been shown tow have two distinct cultures in Europe, a western and north eastern division that have differerent tool types.
They have been shown to hunt blue water aquatic animals, tuna and dolphin. They invented leather, and very likley made woven garments.
They have also been shown to have a medicinal plant knowledge comparable to AMH hunter gatherers.

edit on p0000005k55532016Wed, 25 May 2016 13:55:57 -0500k by punkinworks10 because: (no reason given)




posted on May, 25 2016 @ 02:03 PM
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Well the AMH was actually more VTR but I can see how GFH could be more of the CVT.

However the HSN kinda QHG the whole shebang when HTF came into play.



posted on May, 25 2016 @ 03:39 PM
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a reply to: punkinworks10

Thanks for posting this. I'm glad to see that a definitive date has finally been assigned to this site. It's nice to see some vindication for my favorite branch of humanity. As you point out, the level of cooperation required to create such a work at such a depth into the cave is pretty remarkable and predates the appearance of such "modern" behaviors in HSS by over 100 KA it also throws a bit of a wrench in recent hypothesis that have been coined relating to the increased visual cortex in HN and the possible effects of that increased visual cortex relating to the social abilities of HN. Clearly this is not the case when the HN were able to coordinate well enough to create something that would appear to have a great deal of cultural significance to these people well over 1000 feet from the cave entrance.

For context, this is the layout of the cafe in question.


And here is a rendition of the circles in question


edit on 25-5-2016 by peter vlar because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 25 2016 @ 07:16 PM
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I think any experienced camper knows that a fire is warmer when you have a low wall directly behind you, and can picture these low-walled rings as fire rings. This deep into a cave might also help these ancient Neanderthals to escape the coldest winter spells. bunkered down in their fire rings. 200kya to 130kya we were in a glacial period, northern Europe was under ice.



posted on May, 25 2016 @ 07:40 PM
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a reply to: peter vlar
PeterV,
Thanks for posting the graphics of the cave, it really helps illustrate how well into the cave they were.
Your comment about the enlarged visual cortex had more to it than ist people will think.
First off the research group that thinks their enlarged visual centers were a hinderance to social development are way off base, IMO.
And in this case the better low light visual abilities of HSN would have come in handy. In a place , where for us a small torch might shed a feable light, for HSN it might light it up like twilight.
That 1000 feet into the cave is about 1000 feet to far for me, I don't see how spelunkers do it.
If I were into it, we have some good cave around here, there are a couple of sites that have excellent cultural deposits, whose locations have been kept very very discreet. There is one not so secret "secret" cave ,in the San Joaquin river canyon, that the spelunkers know but almost nobody else does.
I had literally hiked and rode right by the entrance dozens of times before I knew it was there.
I only found it because me and my riding buddy had stopped on the trail, at a spot we never stopped at.
While sitting on a boulder eating a power bar, we could hear voices, but could not see anyone near us at all. Then a guy pokes his head out of a gap in the boulders and slithered out, followed by a dozen other people, it was quite an unexpected parade of mud covered claustrophiles.
I know some north American caves have produced human remains at incredible depths into the cave system.
There is a cave system within Sequoia and Kings Canyon national parks, that is substantial.
It was discovered in the late 90's -early 2000's and explored by the National Geographic Scociety in the mid 2000's , but beyond a small teaser article nothing had been published on the system.
I suspect that there were cultural deposits found and hence the quiescence.
Evidently a few branches of this system open up into the massive granite bluffs that form portions of the Sierra's west flank, so small passage might open up into a crack in the rocks 4000' up a 6000' cliff face overlooking the San Joaquin valley.

Sorry for the cave rant.


I would really like to know what the HSN and AMH overlap at the site is, did they share a occupation window or or was HSN long gone by the time we showed up.



posted on May, 26 2016 @ 12:01 AM
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Thanks for sharing.

a reply to: punkinworks10



I would really like to know what the HSN and AMH overlap at the site is, did they share a occupation window or or was HSN long gone by the time we showed up.



Good question. This Source is alluding to that it was the Neanderthals that were present in the cave;

"This certainly was a collective work, and required at least a minimum of social organization," Jaubert told Popular Mechanics. "This task really was a project, which was likely discussed between several [Neanderthals]. Then it took organized work and the assignment of tasks. Some had to carry torches, some had to move and transport materials, some had place them in this specific configuration, and so on." The discovery paints a picture of Neanderthals as far more socially complex than the classic (although now discredited) Far Side image of a crude, dim-witted species.

Continued...


he says, "it is curious to note that it was not Humans (Homo sapiens) who were the first to explore far into caves, or to draw animals."

edit on 26-5-2016 by dreamingawake because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 26 2016 @ 05:49 AM
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a reply to: punkinworks10

Thank you for posting

I do believe Neanderthals were smarter than apes. They had to be smarter because of more limited physical capabilities.

This still fits in the evolution theory of Darwin.

But there is nothing here that disproves the big bang of consciousness some 32000 years ago. This big bang makes us believe not Darwin but Russel was right.

Neanderthals were limited just like Homo sapiens was. Until something must have happened.

www.evawaseerst.be...



posted on May, 26 2016 @ 10:50 AM
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originally posted by: zandra
a reply to: punkinworks10

Thank you for posting

I do believe Neanderthals were smarter than apes.


Homo Neanderthalensis, just like us, were apes.



They had to be smarter because of more limited physical capabilities.


Which limitations were those? Aside from not being a good long distance runner and likely having a limited overhand throwing capability, they were physically superior to HSS. They were far stronger than we are. The larger brains however weren't necessarily an indicator of greater intelligence as cranial capacity in mammals is in direct correlation with body mass.


This still fits in the evolution theory of Darwin.


Just a heads up but what Darwin postulated is a bit of an anachronism. A lot has been learned about evolutionary processes in the intervening century and a half since he first published On the Origin of Species and we've been operating under the ModernEvolutionary Synthesis since the late 1940's.


But there is nothing here that disproves the big bang of consciousness some 32000 years ago. This big bang makes us believe not Darwin but Russel was right.


Science doesn't disprove hypothesis so you're not ever going to see someone disprove anything. What this find does is cement the fact that Neanderthal had a much more definitive culture that goes back long before HSS left Africa and likely long before the emergence of Homo Sapiens in E. Africa nearly 200 KA. A new age article purporting a Big Bang of consciousness doesn't quite suffice the threshold of evidence in favor of the hypothesis. I'm in no way trying to diminish the quality of the art found at Chauvet or Lascaux because the artwork is indeed magnificent. But the people who created this art aren't anymore superior to Neanderthals than they are to you or I.




Neanderthals were limited just like Homo sapiens was. Until something must have happened.

www.evawaseerst.be...




Yes... They were so limited that when the two groups first met in the Levant 10's of thousands of years ago the HN had superior lithic tools to the Homo sapiens they encountered. The Neanderthal had long buried their dead with grave goods and they had rituals associated with those burials as evidenced by the red ochre and other pigments found in these graves. Downplaying their accomplishments in favor of pseudoscientific new age hoo ha is just flat out ignorant and disrespectful to these people who live on in our own genetic code.



posted on May, 30 2016 @ 05:29 AM
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The last Yellowstone eruption was about 170,000 years ago.

I wonder if the reason they were living that deep in the cave was to escape volcanic ash? And if Yellowstone was blowing up around the time, maybe volcanic activity was much more prevalent. I know if it was me, a cave would probably be a good bet to keep from breathing in deadly volcanic ash.



The most recent eruption at Yellowstone was 170,000 years ago, and the last lava flow was about 70,000 years ago.


newsyac.com...



posted on May, 30 2016 @ 09:51 AM
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originally posted by: Cancerwarrior
The last Yellowstone eruption was about 170,000 years ago.

I wonder if the reason they were living that deep in the cave was to escape volcanic ash? And if Yellowstone was blowing up around the time, maybe volcanic activity was much more prevalent. I know if it was me, a cave would probably be a good bet to keep from breathing in deadly volcanic ash.


Yellowstone is in America... the Neanderthals are in France. The impact on the air in France was very slight if any at all.



posted on May, 30 2016 @ 10:14 AM
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originally posted by: zandra
But there is nothing here that disproves the big bang of consciousness some 32000 years ago. This big bang makes us believe not Darwin but Russel was right.

Neanderthals were limited just like Homo sapiens was. Until something must have happened.
www.evawaseerst.be...


Actually, h. sapiens has been around for about a million years, and sophisticated behavior goes back farther than Chauvet.



posted on May, 30 2016 @ 10:30 AM
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This is so fascinating, thanks for posting. I've visited several tourist type caves. I've never done real spelunking but I enjoy being down there.

The depth they ventured really doesn't surprise me, the insulating nature of caves isn't felt at the opening. You have to go deeper to enjoy constant temps.

The stalagmite rings remind me of native american teepee rings I've seen here in Colorado. Although caves stay a constant temp it's possible it was cold down there especially during an ice age. Maybe they erected teepee type structures inside the cave for extra insulation. Packing a bunch of people into a hide/fur lined structure will get cozy quick.


edit on 5-30-2016 by Morningglory because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 30 2016 @ 10:41 AM
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originally posted by: Byrd

originally posted by: zandra
But there is nothing here that disproves the big bang of consciousness some 32000 years ago. This big bang makes us believe not Darwin but Russel was right.

Neanderthals were limited just like Homo sapiens was. Until something must have happened.
www.evawaseerst.be...


Actually, h. sapiens has been around for about a million years, and sophisticated behavior goes back farther than Chauvet.


Where has h. Sapien been found older than 200ka?


I do believe even chimps however have complex and ritual social behavior is found. I am sure even back toward h. Erectus some ritual behavior was present. It's already known Neaderthals has complex behaviour, burried there dead, used caves and fire, had tools and bread with h. Sapiens. Same goes all the way back in some aspects to chimps.




I think this goes to show the journey outside Africa was as important for psychological evolution (huge part of human survival of traits.) as the biological origins. I imagine the information was passed from early human to early human evolving engineering, horticulture, and survival techniques different environments needing different knowledge and discovery for survival. In some cases we may see Neaderthals having more technical knowledge than h. Sapiens and H. Sapiens learning technical and cultural information from Neaderthals. Also vice versa.




edit on 30-5-2016 by luthier because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 30 2016 @ 11:33 AM
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They were hiding from the reptilian aliens
Easy
Peace



posted on May, 30 2016 @ 11:35 AM
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First thing that comes to mind, maybe they were bored.
Maybe it was an enclosure for captured animals to cook up later.
Maybe they knocked the sharp pointy things down so they wouldn't get skewered, then stacked them around their fire to sit on.



posted on May, 30 2016 @ 01:55 PM
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a reply to: Byrd




Yellowstone is in America... the Neanderthals are in France. The impact on the air in France was very slight if any at all.


I don't mean that Yellowstone was the only volcano going off at the time. I meant to say maybe there were several. Volcanos have a way of blowing all at once or few if any at all it seems.

I really haven't researched or dug for any more data, but to me it makes sense why people would live so deep in a cave.



posted on May, 30 2016 @ 02:29 PM
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Maybe they were hiding from the Annanuki or the gods that came unto the sons of men.




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