The end of the Conservative movement?

originally posted by: Eilasvaleleyn
The current "capitalistic" ideal of "if you don't work you don't eat or have a place to live" isn't sustainable. The number of jobs is only going to go down, and our population is still increasing.

Jobs are going down. Less jobs, duh.
People are living longer. They keep working longer (if they don't get outsourced or replaced by technology.)
Population is going up. More competition, lower wages or lower commissions.

The millennials right now are pretty fkecud, but I'm dreading the future of the children born fifty years from now if something isn't done.
Assuming that there is a future and the world's nations pull their collective heads out of their asses and stop destroying out planet, of course.

Hmmm, 'if you don't work, you don't eat' has been around a lot longer than capitalism. I'd say it wasn't an 'ideal' rather a reality. It holds true for any mammalian life form. Always has. That's the conservative in me....LOL.

Work together. That will produce better results than 'implying' the 'ideal' of freebies....

a reply to: nwtrucker

No, you're incorrect. It's "if you don't procure food, you don't eat."
Working is a method of acquiring food, not the method. The most reliable one of the time, for sure, but other things could get food on your table. Like luck. Of course, if you use the broadest interpretation of work possible (something along the lines of "doing literally anything.") then of course you can't eat without work, eating is work. However, that's not the point.

I don't think you understand what I'm saying. Capitalism (as it stands) will fail, it's just a matter of time. Jobs will go down, population will go up, crime and poverty with it, dragging the economy even further into the mud. Unfortunately, I feel like a reasonable portion of "conservative" America would prefer mass executions to implementing what will be necessary.

originally posted by: Eilasvaleleyn
a reply to: nwtrucker

No, you're incorrect. It's "if you don't procure food, you don't eat."
Working is a method of acquiring food, not the method. The most reliable one of the time, for sure, but other things could get food on your table. Like luck. Of course, if you use the broadest interpretation of work possible (something along the lines of "doing literally anything.") then of course you can't eat without work, eating is work. However, that's not the point.

I don't think you understand what I'm saying. Capitalism (as it stands) will fail, it's just a matter of time. Jobs will go down, population will go up, crime and poverty with it, dragging the economy even further into the mud. Unfortunately, I feel like a reasonable portion of "conservative" America would prefer mass executions to implementing what will be necessary.

All systems will fail. Nothing stays the same. Yet, this 'capitalism will fail' mantra completely avoids any alternative system whatsoever.

Your 'as it stands' I agree with. it's out of balance, needs tweaking and more controls. As long as one recognizes that there is no viable alternative to a corporate/capitalist system. Period.

Where I take exception is your capitalist 'ideal' of work to eat. It is pure garbage, and you know it. Don't want to work? Go grow your own- after all growing your own isn't 'work'......


This current system feeds 7 billion plus. Nothing touches those numbers, sir, NOTHING.

a reply to: nwtrucker

All systems will fail. Nothing stays the same. Yet, this 'capitalism will fail' mantra completely avoids any alternative system whatsoever.

Of course, that's because there isn't an alternative. Communism and Socialism are just as bad, and any system involves humans and is therefore doomed to failure because humans are greedy, power-hungry assholes that ruin everything for others so they can sit at the top of an imaginary castle built on invisible cards.

Your 'as it stands' I agree with. it's out of balance, needs tweaking and more controls. As long as one recognizes that there is no viable alternative to a corporate/capitalist system. Period.

No, there isn't a viable alternative. Because all those alternatives fail just as hard as it does. There's nothing better, but not much worse either.

Where I take exception is your capitalist 'ideal' of work to eat. It is pure garbage, and you know it. Don't want to work? Go grow your own- after all growing your own isn't 'work'......

As much as I am sure many people would love to do that, they simply can't.
And the assholes who have become rich off the current state of affairs (see: Koch Brothers) are f*cking our planet in pursuit of their profits anyway. So I can't just bury my head in the sand, because in two hundred years, there might not be any sand.
Simple fact is that population is going up, jobs are going down. It's either mass culling, or different system. (For instance, universal guaranteed income.)

This current system feeds 7 billion plus. Nothing touches those numbers, sir, NOTHING.

Speaking of pure garbage...

originally posted by: nwtrucker
All systems will fail. Nothing stays the same. Yet, this 'capitalism will fail' mantra completely avoids any alternative system whatsoever.

Having an alternative system is not needed to point out that something is unsustainable.

originally posted by: daskakik

originally posted by: nwtrucker
All systems will fail. Nothing stays the same. Yet, this 'capitalism will fail' mantra completely avoids any alternative system whatsoever.

Having an alternative system is not needed to point out that something is unsustainable.

Then what's the purpose? "The end is near", crowd?

It is fixable..

P.S. Ahh, I see your purpose/agenda.... universal income. LMAO. So let's see, by your 'logic' Capitalism isn't sustainable so you would add a universal income-unsustainable, in and of itself- on top of Capitalism which doomed anyways.

originally posted by: nwtrucker

originally posted by: daskakik

originally posted by: nwtrucker
All systems will fail. Nothing stays the same. Yet, this 'capitalism will fail' mantra completely avoids any alternative system whatsoever.

Having an alternative system is not needed to point out that something is unsustainable.

Then what's the purpose? "The end is near", crowd?

It is fixable..

P.S. Ahh, I see your purpose/agenda.... universal income. LMAO. So let's see, by your 'logic' Capitalism isn't sustainable so you would add a universal income-unsustainable, in and of itself- on top of Capitalism which doomed anyways.

It might be sustainable if we actually had a capitalistic system and a free market economy but we don't.
That's the main mistake conservatives make about economics in their fantasy land of the way they want it to be.
Free enterprise is all but dead when you throw speculation and greedy market forces into the mix. To big to fail banking systems, a totally ****** up stock market system that only favors "in the know insiders"

You can call it crony capitalism, Oligarchian, a kleptacracy, etc....but what it really boils down to is a high tech autocratic feudalism;
master/serf with the military industrial, bankers as the masters....totally in control of governments, utilities, food distribution, energy....everything and YOU the wage slave stuck in a rat race cycle of work, eat, watch TV, sleep, and obey or go to jail.

Orwell called it perfectly....

Read "Player Piano" by Vonnegut and see if it looks familiar.

At least the dembs offer a false hope...but we as a nation are destined to become like Greece in a few short years but without the cool architecture and culture.


Trump will make it right though....

originally posted by: nwtrucker
Then what's the purpose? "The end is near", crowd?

This thread isn't going to change anything either so, what is the purpose?

It is fixable..

P.S. Ahh, I see your purpose/agenda.... universal income. LMAO. So let's see, by your 'logic' Capitalism isn't sustainable so you would add a universal income-unsustainable, in and of itself- on top of Capitalism which doomed anyways.

When did I say any of that?

a reply to: olaru12


Trump can't make it any worse, than your 'alternative'.....

a reply to: daskakik

(For instance, universal guaranteed income.)

originally posted by: nwtrucker
a reply to: olaru12


Trump can't make it any worse, than your 'alternative'.....

Gary Johnson....my friend and ex employer? Who did you think my "alternative" is?

Gov. Gary called Trump a pu*+y, I happen to agree.

nmpoliticalreport.com...

a reply to: olaru12


So if he's out, what's your motive?

a reply to: nwtrucker

That wasn't me. That was Eilasvaleleyn.

originally posted by: daskakik
a reply to: nwtrucker

That wasn't me. That was Eilasvaleleyn.

Dammit! Apologies....

a reply to: nwtrucker

The point is to at least recognize where the failures are and come up with something else. Most people don't live under multiple economic systems in their lifetime so they aren't really capable of seeing change.

The main advantage that capitalism has is that there's an individual benefit for working longer/harder and that leads to more goods produced.

The main disadvantage is that capitalism is very inefficient with resource distribution and quality of goods. The most competitive product is what does well, not the product that's actually the best purchase for the customer.

originally posted by: nwtrucker
a reply to: daskakik

(For instance, universal guaranteed income.)

The median income in the US is 50k/year. Lets set the tax rate at 25% with no deductions and give everyone a monthly rebate of $900 in order to offset taxes paid that month so that it stays on a progressive scale and doesn't disproportionately hurt the poor.

We've just created a basic income. Note that this was actually Ted Cruz's tax plan that he was running on (though I think he had the percent lower).

a reply to: Aazadan

The other main issue with capitalism is that prosperity ends up being too heavily slanted towards the top due to cronyism. The wealth distribution graph looks like a helicopter landing pad balanced on top of a toothpick.

a reply to: nwtrucker

P.S. Ahh, I see your purpose/agenda.... universal income. LMAO. So let's see, by your 'logic' Capitalism isn't sustainable so you would add a universal income-unsustainable, in and of itself- on top of Capitalism which doomed anyways.

It's somewhat of a band-aid fix to be sure, but if there isn't a massive overhaul away from Capitalism and towards something more Utopian (probably won't happen because of humans) it will be necessary. Jobs going down, population up. Universal income is the only way you're going to get more life and time out of it. Capitalism works when money changes hands at the ground level, but as it stands all of it is being sucked up into the sky with barely a drop raining back down.

It was always doomed, but corporate greed and Reaganomics made the doom come that much quicker.

a reply to: Eilasvaleleyn


Away from capitalism to what?? That's where your premise breaks down! There is communism, capitalism and barter.
Socialism is totally dependent on capitalism for it's wealth distribution.

Totally agree re: humanity, itself.

What you miss is compared to earlier times, what we have now looks 'Utopian'.

I have trucked in the 49 states, millions of miles, literally. I have never, EVER seen one single person starved to death, or dead in any wise, for that matter. We already have an extraordinary system- at least the U.S.- which needs tweaking, without doubt.

Look, there are positives and negatives to address. My frame of reference, for now, is the U.S.. If the whole mess collapses, then sobeit. Balance, population-wise, will be restored.

What I am certain of is if the U.S. can't correct the issues facing it, then there's not much chance the rest of the world will either.

What I will NOT support is rewarding those that don't contribute to the overall group survival. Even the Soviets had anti-parasite laws. I have no problem with funding for emergency situations, donations and the like.

There are no guarantees for anyone, survival wise, I will be thrice damned before I buy into guaranteed incomes for non-producers when MY survival is hinged upon pay-check to pay-check.

A guaranteed income SPEEDS the likely coming collapse, nothing more, nothing less.

Improve the work to population ration. Jobs. Good ones. Then there's more revenue to address issues like those you refer to.

originally posted by: Aazadan

originally posted by: nwtrucker
a reply to: daskakik

(For instance, universal guaranteed income.)

The median income in the US is 50k/year. Lets set the tax rate at 25% with no deductions and give everyone a monthly rebate of $900 in order to offset taxes paid that month so that it stays on a progressive scale and doesn't disproportionately hurt the poor.

We've just created a basic income. Note that this was actually Ted Cruz's tax plan that he was running on (though I think he had the percent lower).

A quick response- off to work- no wonder Cruz crashed and burned......