Drinking the Golden Calf; Exodus 32

originally posted by: Parazurvan
a reply to: chr0naut

You brought up the earlier description of Aaron making a mold and casting an image of a calf and then proceed to say he was lying.

A perfect example of you focusing on the irrelevant to argue anything because you are not interested in the topic only in arguing against what I am saying period.

Was Aaron a trained goldsmith and metallurgist? Did the Israelites have access in the desert to the metal to make the mold, the proper machinery to make a hot enough fire to melt gold? Not even possible never mind likely.

It is an allegorical story and not a real event so it isn't important whether or not Aaron was lying because it's not a true story.

And monoatomic gold is powdered gold. The ancient Pharoahs are also said to have consumed a similar substance. Monoatomic gold is being researched and is said to have phenomenal properties.

None of that is a leap. It is connecting the dots. Feel free to not like it but it isn't going to make a difference because your opinion is only yours.

You don't like anyone speculating on biblical matters if they aren't in line with your view. OK. But you are a stubborn fundamentalist so that is the norm. You think you have the truth and everyone who doesn't accept Jesus is wrong.

You have an agenda. You need to be right and will deny being wrong and if proof exists you will say you don't believe it because of one reason or another.

I kind of feel bad for you but you I don't when it comes to you stating your opinion as fact when it isn't.

The ancient Egyptians couldn't even make iron (it was the late bronze age), the only source of iron was from 'found' meteors. How could they have gold powder? If they had a powder that was metallic and yellow, it was probably sulphide of antimony powder, which is more toxic than lead.

Exodus 32:4 says that Aaron fashioned the idol with an engraving tool (chisel). It doesn't say he cast gold in a mold. He also states later that he simply put the gold into the fire and it just came out like a calf, which is obviously an absurd lie. Nowhere in Exodus 32 does it say that he made a mold. It does say that that Aaron "cast the gold into the fire" in Exodus 32:24. In English, the word "cast" is ambiguous but the Hebrew source word שָׁלַךְ (shalak) means "to throw", "hurl" and "fling", so the meaning is clear.

To produce gold leaf, you basically need a hammer and a flat surface harder than the gold metal and a bit of patience. You could do that in a desert with a couple of rocks. Once you have gold leaf, it can easily be wrapped over forms to give them the appearance of being made of solid gold.

To melt gold (prior to casting it) you need a ceramic bowl, some wood to burn, a hillside kiln to direct the heat to a single opening and something to fan the flames. Gold melts at 1,064.18 °C, a temperature reachable by directed heat from a wood charcoal source which burns at higher than 593.3 °C and when directed by a kiln can easily produce temperatures of 1,400 °C. It requires a little bit more than hammering out gold leaf but is also probably doable in a desert.

None of the above is a religious matter, it is all a matter of record and fact.

originally posted by: Parazurvan

originally posted by: chr0naut

originally posted by: Parazurvan
a reply to: chr0naut

You just nitpick everything like you are writing an essay and now you're a 40 year academic you're telling me for what reason?

Because you don't know everything and anything you see that you don't like you go to Google and find something that agrees with you or spew random uncheckable or irrelevant information until it looks like you wrote a rebuttal. Sadly, your facts are almost always incorrect and all the websites and facts can't tell you you are wrong.

Regardless, Moses did turn gold to powder and that can not and was not done just with fire.

And he ordains the Levites as a reward for slaughtering 3000 of their fellow Israelites after they mysteriously start running around like they are on something and only Levites join Moses as if they did not drink the water and are not messed up.

It is a curious story if your goal wasn't just to write long essays trying to show you are the smartest as if more words=more right and more smart. You are essentially just transferring the information you just looked up and pretending to be an expert. It is obvious because nobody just happens to know everything about everything you do all the time like a walking encyclopedia.

But when you are wrong about every time like you it isn't hard to see what you are trying to do. I wouldn't be surprised if you were just interested in making sure people don't think different from what you want them to. Or even think at all. You are like the Inquisition. Thought police.

So now you are quite definite that Moses turned gold into powder and that there is no other interpretation?

Exodus 32:20 He took the calf that they had made, burned it with fire, ground it TO POWDER, scattered it on the water, and made the Israelites drink it.

Perfect example of you pretending to know the topic and not even knowing the words, but having no problem with arguing about the contents that you don't even correctly know.

You asked if I am sure he turned it into powder as if it wasn't explicitly stated in the Bible that he did. Proof you are not aware of what it says.

But why can't you argue about stuff in a deceptive manner? It's a free country. If you want to ignore complicated passages that you don't understand you can comment still.

You look foolish but it is your choice.

Your own quote from Exodus 32:20 doesn't' say he ground gold to powder. Re-read your quote.

a reply to: chr0naut

He burned the gold with fire and then ground it to powder. Are you seriously telling me you read something different?

"...he took the calf that they made (remember, the GOLD CALF?),burned it with fire(the gold calf), ground it to powder..."

So he turned a gold calf in to powder. You are so desperate to catch me saying something incorrect that you didn't read the passage correctly before hastily pronouncing something that was 100% false.

My comment most certainly does have Moses turning a gold calf to powder after putting it in fire. It started as a gold calf and turned into a powder.

Pay better attention and stop trying to misquote me or misinterpret my quotes.

You know the calf was gold, it says so and this has been an established fact since the op. You just made use of the fact that that particular sentence you started at doesn't say the word gold.

But in previous verses that are included in the op say that it is gold. Common knowledge is that the calf is gold. I have never heard anyone say it wasn't because the bible makes it very clear.

And you are trying to abuse the passage by saying that the powder wasn't made from gold because the gold had been put in the fire first.

That isn't rational. It started out as gold and ended up powder.


I might just say something wrong on purpose just so you can get your warm fuzzy and you stop stretching the truth to get it. At least I won't have to deal with an obsessed misinformation agent.

a reply to: chr0naut

Moses wrote the book of Revelation.



There you go, you can correct me now, I said something incorrect and you stop obsessing with me.

Although I am flattered that you take such an interest in you would do better to learn that which you don't understand before getting involved in a discussion about it. You have showed that you don't care about the truth and will make dishonest statements if you get desperate. Saying my own comment doesn't even say gold when it is talking about the previously mentioned gold calf, which was subsequently turned into powder although you tried to say otherwise. Gold or powder, whichever you meant, was obvious and you tried to say otherwise.

That's dishonest or du...inattentive. One of the two.

a reply to: Parazurvan



This is a part of the USC archaeology research collection, to quote their website:

"It is an extraordinary piece in that much of the outer layer of gold is preserved. A close examination reveals a layer of gesso (powdered limestone or gypsum mixed with glue) underneath the gold. It is the gesso which adheres the gold to the bronze.

The bronze has been identified as a tin-bronze.

The gesso, principally calcium carbonate, contains chalk and calcite. A staining test has determined the gesso also contains protein.

This is consistent with the Egyptian practice of utilizing animal glue to create a protein bond to adhere gold to furniture and other objects. The statuette has been dated to approximately 1000-500 B.C.E."

Looks like an established manufacturing technique to me and most reasonable people would describe it as a golden statuette, especially if it was just new and hadn't lost some of the gold leaf.

originally posted by: Parazurvan
a reply to: chr0naut

Moses wrote the book of Revelation.



There you go, you can correct me now, I said something incorrect and you stop obsessing with me.

Although I am flattered that you take such an interest in you would do better to learn that which you don't understand before getting involved in a discussion about it. You have showed that you don't care about the truth and will make dishonest statements if you get desperate. Saying my own comment doesn't even say gold when it is talking about the previously mentioned gold calf, which was subsequently turned into powder although you tried to say otherwise. Gold or powder, whichever you meant, was obvious and you tried to say otherwise.

That's dishonest or du...inattentive. One of the two.

No, i agree with you that Moses did not write The Revelation of Jesus Christ.

But suggesting an absurdity does not negate the silliness of the suggestions that were made in the OP.

It isn't a well reasoned response.

a reply to: Now Padawan Parazurvan

PADAWAN!! You have got to be the most entertaining poster on ATS.

Do you ever learn? Even my friends find you hilarious in your ludicrousness.

Keep up the good work digger. Lol

Coomba98

a reply to: chr0naut

I'm just giving you what you want, to prove me wrong about some so you get your fix and stop bothering me things that I am not wrong about.

OK how about...the Jews are from Canada.

I mean it this time I really believe it.


But after this comment I am filing you under D.N.E. for does not exist because if I keep arguing with a fool I will eventually become one and you are the perfect example of that type of person.

originally posted by: Parazurvan
a reply to: chr0naut

I'm just giving you what you want, to prove me wrong about some so you get your fix and stop bothering me things that I am not wrong about.

OK how about...the Jews are from Canada.

I mean it this time I really believe it.

But after this comment I am filing you under D.N.E. for does not exist because if I keep arguing with a fool I will eventually become one and you are the perfect example of that type of person.

Don't give up so easily, I'm sure that if you keep it up, I'll eventually run out of ways to refute!

a reply to: Padawan Parazurvan

originally posted by: Padawan Parazurvan
a reply to: chr0naut
because if I keep arguing with a fool I will eventually become one

Padawan Parazurvan Googlemiser,
Im afraid that train left the station a loooong long time ago.

What is the point of this thread Padawan? You believe but dont believe but believe yet dont believe.

Yeah but nah but yeah but nah but..... Strange Padawan strange.

Coomba98

a reply to: coomba98

I've been wondering when you were going to step in and call out old Padawan. Took you a while

a reply to: chr0naut

It's true there are are Jews in Canada. They are also responsible for the Montreal smoked meat sandwich !!! A must try for anyone visiting Quebec.

originally posted by: Joecanada11
a reply to: chr0naut

It's true there are are Jews in Canada. They are also responsible for the Montreal smoked meat sandwich !!! A must try for anyone visiting Quebec.

I'll smoke one in your honor when I'm next there, oy vey!

a reply to: Joecanada11

Lol true. My girlfriend sternly told me to give posting on ATS a break. Still here multiple times a day during my smoke break but dont log in.

Padawans too funny to ignore.

Coomba98

a reply to: chr0naut

Not relevant to the text in the op or any other part. The text is clear that it was gold and only gold. A stutue from Egypt and a mythical golden calf have nothing to do with each other.

originally posted by: Parazurvan
a reply to: chr0naut

Not relevant to the text in the op or any other part. The text is clear that it was gold and only gold. A stutue from Egypt and a mythical golden calf have nothing to do with each other.

Nowhere does it state that the idol was only gold and formed in a mold, instead it says it was crafted with a chisel. Have you ever tried to chisel a metal? The text also clearly says the idol was bound and covered, presumably with something. It says it adjacent to the sentence where Aaron receives the gold from the people.

However,

If the golden calf was mythical as you have just stated, you realize that it would mean the whole premise of your OP is invalid as a serious discussion point?

Unless you are like a pre-teen girl arguing minutiae around the plot holes in the Twilight series?

a reply to: chr0naut

How many times do I have to quote the same passage just to convince that the calf was made out of gold? You tell me the other ingredients.

Ex.32:2

"Take off your gold rings that are one your ears of your wives, your sons, and your daughters, and bring them to me."3So all the people took off the gold rings from their ears, and brought them to Aaron. 4He took them, formed it in a mold, and cast an image of an idol.

A mold would be the reverse of the object you are making, and made of a metal that melts at a higher degree than the metal being poured in.


None of that is possible for people stranded in the desert. You would not even be able to melt the gold without a special oven. You would not be able to create the mold without the equipment a goldsmith/metallurgist would have at his shop.

So as far as how it was made, it is impossible that it even was made and you can't make a golden calf with a chisel and a fire. You're arguing a moot point as the story is obviously allegorical and using a different translation than mine so you can say " it says this word, not...."

But the NRSV is as good a translation as any and you can stop trying to say it was made out of anything besides gold because the text doesn't say it which you know.

I don't know why it is so important to you that the golden calf be made of anything but gold to the point where you could say "obviously" when it is obvious that it is only gold unless you are willing to assume things the text doesn't say.

I have never heard anyone argue that the golden calf was anything but gold. It is a pretty dumb thing to argue. I don't see the word chisel in my bible which is of the most reputable class using DSS, Greek and Masoretic texts to produce the most accurate to the original as possible.

For the final time unless you have the text that list the other ingredients that it was made of, the calf was gold.


And millions of Christians and Jews are comfortable with this being an allegorical story so I don't believe you are being anything but bitter by asking why I am interested in the first place. Believing the Bible is a literal historical account is not a prerequisite for studying it.


Are you saying that Twighlight is as good a book as the Bible? I will have to take your word for it I have not even seen the movie.

originally posted by: Parazurvan
a reply to: chr0naut

How many times do I have to quote the same passage just to convince that the calf was made out of gold? You tell me the other ingredients.

Ex.32:2

"Take off your gold rings that are one your ears of your wives, your sons, and your daughters, and bring them to me."3So all the people took off the gold rings from their ears, and brought them to Aaron. 4He took them, formed it in a mold, and cast an image of an idol.

A mold would be the reverse of the object you are making, and made of a metal that melts at a higher degree than the metal being poured in.


None of that is possible for people stranded in the desert. You would not even be able to melt the gold without a special oven. You would not be able to create the mold without the equipment a goldsmith/metallurgist would have at his shop.

So as far as how it was made, it is impossible that it even was made and you can't make a golden calf with a chisel and a fire. You're arguing a moot point as the story is obviously allegorical and using a different translation than mine so you can say " it says this word, not...."

But the NRSV is as good a translation as any and you can stop trying to say it was made out of anything besides gold because the text doesn't say it which you know.

I don't know why it is so important to you that the golden calf be made of anything but gold to the point where you could say "obviously" when it is obvious that it is only gold unless you are willing to assume things the text doesn't say.

I have never heard anyone argue that the golden calf was anything but gold. It is a pretty dumb thing to argue. I don't see the word chisel in my bible which is of the most reputable class using DSS, Greek and Masoretic texts to produce the most accurate to the original as possible.

For the final time unless you have the text that list the other ingredients that it was made of, the calf was gold.


And millions of Christians and Jews are comfortable with this being an allegorical story so I don't believe you are being anything but bitter by asking why I am interested in the first place. Believing the Bible is a literal historical account is not a prerequisite for studying it.


Are you saying that Twighlight is as good a book as the Bible? I will have to take your word for it I have not even seen the movie.

OK, you wanted to know the text that lists the 'other ingredients, so I will oblige:

Exodus 32:2-4 by word for word translation from the Hebrew source (Dead Sea Scrolls - Scroll 4Q22 PaleoExodus) using a Strongs concordance for word definitions:

Aaron said tear off gold rings in the ears [of] wives, sons, young daughters [and] come. The people tore off gold rings in the ears, came [to] Aaron [who] received [from their] hands, bound or wrapped, chiseled to fashion it. Bronze* bull-calf. They said "God of Israel" which brought us up [from] the land Egypt.

Here's an online direct translation of DSS Scroll 4Q22, so you may verify that I have translated correctly.

*Now you must also understand that the word "molten" at the time did not have the modern connotation of other melted metals, but referred specifically to either bronze or brass, the only common metals that were easy to melt (that is why it is referred to as the Bronze Age). An example is the "Moltern Sea" - (Wikipedia link), a large wash basin for ceremonial washing, that was in the Temple in Jerusalem. It was obviously made of solid (not melted) brass or bronze and so referring to the calf being "molten" is the same as saying it was brass or bronze (just like the way the Egyptian statuette of a previous post was manufactured).

Additionally, the only place in the NRSV where it says "golden calf", is in the title for the section, which was added later (like the verse numbers). It is NOT part of the original text.

If you were to "burn" bronze long enough, it would oxidize into a green colored salt. If you ground that oxide up and put it into water it would be bitter, metallic and rather nasty tasting. Additionally, bronze from the region at the time were high in arsenic, so it would have made the drinkers sick.

Also, just a little technical detail, most metal foundry molds are made of sand, not metal. The 'positive' model for the casting is usually made of a wax, which is engraved to shape it, and this is then packed into the casting sand. Heat applied to the mold melts out the wax leaving a 'negative' of the shape being cast. This is very much "desert" technology, was the ONLY method used at the time and compliant with the translation of the original text.

The more you actually study the Bible, the less it looks like allegory. If the Exodus was fictional, then the law was fictional. Jesus quoted Moses directly and very strongly from Deuteronomy, which was about the Exodus and desert wanderings. If it were all a fiction, then what Jesus said was invalid, and I don't believe that. Neither do billions of Christians over the last two millennia.

a reply to: chr0naut

Damn you are really obsessed with this golden calf, your saying that it isn't gold but it clearly is. You say it has other ingredients but you can't prove it or say what they are.

But if you want to assume things that aren't confirmable or supported by the texts go ahead.

It is a golden calf. Nobody else but you is debating it you are the only one who refuses to accept it.

And it doesn't even matter. You are mad because you need to make me wrong. You will say just about anything to do it.


Show me in the Bible the other ingredients or I am done with this nonsense

You have a problem with anything tell it to somebody else because you are becoming more and more ridiculous as you lose arguments and are now saying things that are speculatory with no scriptural support.

Gold is gold. If the story says it was made out of gold then turned into powder that is what I am going with because that is what it says. I am not reading history or science and don't need the story to be possible to enjoy. Many impossible things happen in the Bible, I am quite used to it. If it is an issue for you you deal with it on your own.

a reply to: chr0naut

Oh, and golden calf is the title of the chapter, yes.

Because of the FACT that the calf is made out of GOLD.

Do I need to explain that that gold and calf are not side by side words in a story about a golden calf of I use the words golden calf when talking about it?

Would the NRSV title the chapter the Golden Calf had it not been made out of gold?


And I never said that golden calf were words that appear side by side. When I quoted the text I did so word for word out of the book.

Again, your desperate for the tiniest error but you are making them in the process assuming that there is something relevant about the golden calf being the title of the chapter, other than the fact that that is what the story is about.


Ai Ai Ai. OK, now we are done, I had to make sure you know you are getting sad and I can only laugh at someone's ridiculousness if it isn't sad. And this is getting sad.