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America, when is it enough to die for?

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posted on Jan, 15 2005 @ 02:30 AM
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It seems like these days, one would be hard pressed to find just a single American who doesn’t think that the government is oppressing people in some way, shape or form. What I am wondering is just how much people are willing to take? When is enough, enough?

What I see is the gradual erosion of liberties in just the same way Nazi Germany did. They creep the laws in, hoping that no individual right will be enough to spark violence from the people. They hope that no single event will be enough for us to risk our comfortable ways of life, our jobs, our very lives.

What do you think the people in Nazi Germany thought? “Well, they will probably stop with making the Jews wear those silly little yellow stars.” What do you think of those Germans who whined after the war that there was “nothing we could do about it, it was the law, how could we stand up to them?” How different our history books would be if every German, upon hearing of the first despicable acts of Hitler, had picked up arms and said “No, Herr Hitler, you will not do this. You will not do this to those Jews. You will not do this to those Gypsies. You will not do this to our Country!” They didn’t do it, and look what happened. They let the strongest military on earth destroy their country and half of the world along with it. What did they do this for? Comfort. Jobs. Security. To save their own individual hides. Are these excuses enough? Are they enough for you?

Harmonious One asked this in another thread

what will happen if martial law is instituted for some reason and their rules are relaxed? Will we be in danger from the ones who are supposed to protect us? I am growing very tired of those in positions of authority, treating citizens with disrespect and as though our rights mean nothing; all under the guise of security and "for our own protection". It seems to be happening at all levels of government. Is there anything we as citizens can do to stop this abuse of power?

Our constitution says....."We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness. That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed. That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness."

How? How do we do this? Is there an instruction book somewhere? Or do we just do what we think is right , duck alot, and prepare to be arrested or shot? Or maybe, for those who are more publicly known and so our demise must appear an accident, taken out in a plane crash . Am I just completely paranoid? Or are we truly losing our liberties?


Well, all of you, answer up. Are we losing our liberties? What can be done?


Our founding fathers have an answer for you, Harmonious One. They have quite a few answers for you, actually.

“To preserve liberty it is essential that the whole body of the people always possess arms, and be taught alike, especially when young, how to use them.”
- Richard Henry Lee, drafter of the Bill of Rights, 1788

“I hold that a little rebellion, now and then, is a good thing, and as necessary in the political world as storms are in the physical. Unsuccessful rebellions, indeed, generally establish the encroachments on the rights of the people, which have produced them. An observation of this truth should render honest republican governors so mild in their punishment of rebellions, as not to discourage them too much. It is the medicine necessary for the sound health of governments.”
- Thomas Jefferson, writing to James Madison

“What country can preserve its liberties, if its rulers are not warned from time to time, that this people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms. … The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time, with the blood of patriots and tyrants.”
- Jefferson, to William S. Smith, 1787

“ [armed government forces] can never be formidable to the liberties of its people, while there is a large body of citizens, little if at all inferior to them in discipline and the use of arms, who stand ready to defend their rights and those of their fellow citizens”
- Alexander Hamilton, The Federalist No. 29

“A militia, when properly formed, are in fact the people themselves. … [T]he Constitution out to secure a genuine [militia] and guard against a select militia, by providing that the militias shall always be kept well organized, armed, and disciplined, and include … all men capable of bearing arms, and that all regulations tending to render this militia useless and defenseless, by establishing select corps of militia, or distinct bodies of military men not having permanent interests and attachments in the community [are] to be avoided.”
- Richard Henry Lee, 1788

It is always dangerous to the liberties of the people to have an army stationed among them, over which they have no control, … The militia is composed of free Citizens. There is therefore no danger of their making use of their power to the destruction of their own Rights.”
- Samuel Adams, 1775

“Before a standing army can rule, the people must be disarmed; as they are in almost every kingdom in Europe. [But] the supreme power in America cannot enforce unjust laws by the sword; because the whole body of the people are armed, and constitute a force superior to any band of regular troops that can be, on any pretense, raised in the United States.”
- Noah Webster, 1787



There of course is so much more, but I think you all get the point. The founders had one thing in mind when they included the 2nd; to make sure we never had to suffer a government that was oppressive. Our current government is, in most ways, much worse then the British government General Washington met with cold steel.


So, I ask the question again; how much is too much, when is enough, enough?
At what point would all of you advocate loading your magazines and putting sticking your necks out.




posted on Jan, 15 2005 @ 04:27 AM
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“To preserve liberty it is essential that the whole body of the people always possess arms, and be taught alike, especially when young, how to use them.”
- Richard Henry Lee, drafter of the Bill of Rights, 1788
I guess the arms would be usefull to overthrow the government and start a civil war. America down fall wont be the loss of civil libertys America will trip over its own trigger and blow American society away.



posted on Jan, 15 2005 @ 01:44 PM
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I don't think it's ever worth it. The idea is to make your enemies die, not you.



posted on Jan, 15 2005 @ 09:35 PM
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revolution is most definitely needed now. The stagnant, corrupt government, a government representing the interests of corporations over the interests of the people, must be overturned with any and all weapons possessed by the people. So, to answer your question, it is most definitely worth it. If the army is to stand against the people it has sworn to protect from 'any and all enemies', and unite with the encumbent government, the army must be destroyed as well. Only the proletariat have the power of revolution since it is the proletariat being cheated by government, not the capitalist. Not only the government must be toppled, but those the government serves as well. I'm talking about Standard Oil, Nike, GAP, Shell, Pfizer, Monsanto, Bechtel, and all others who would put profit before people and the environment.

No sacrifice is too great in acheiving these ends.

[edit on 15-1-2005 by General Zapata]



posted on Jan, 15 2005 @ 10:03 PM
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Originally posted by KrazyJethro
I don't think it's ever worth it. The idea is to make your enemies die, not you.

Always better to make the other poor bastard die for his country.

Roger that.

But as for America, at the risk of being politically incorrect, defending the people of the United States is always worth the risk.

Someone, if not you, must be willing to risk death if your mom and dad and brothers and sisters are to survive.

You can spit on them, ignore them or recognize their sacrifice. It's up to you, because you are free to decide, thanks to them.

I took that risk (and almost died), and plenty of some of the best people ever born are doing the same while we pontificate on the merits of the subject. They're laying their cards on the table while we debate Hoyle, and there are no do-overs in war.

I think America is worth dying for. If I was the only person who felt that way, this discussion would not be taking place.

Here's a shout out to my homies doing the work to keep the bad guys away. God bless each and every one of you.



posted on Jan, 15 2005 @ 10:09 PM
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Majic, I don’t think you read my original post. You may want to re-read it.


General Z, you may just be a dirty communist, but your my kinda dirty communist.



posted on Jan, 16 2005 @ 02:24 AM
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Originally posted by cavscout
Majic, I don’t think you read my original post. You may want to re-read it.

Over the past twenty years or so, I've seen enough talk, leaflets and posts aimed at whether or not we should attack our own government to make my eyes glaze over, so I can hope you would understand why I prefer to talk about the people who are actually defending us, rather than the people who aren't but like to pretend they are.

I suppose that is off-topic, and apologize for going OT.



posted on Jan, 16 2005 @ 04:00 PM
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Majic, I served as well in the Marine Corps infantry. But I had nothing to lose then, and I certainly do now.

If it comes down to this country or my family, I'm sorry but America can kiss my ass.

My only job in this life is to maintain as much life as possible (my families at the head of the line of course). I am no longer interested in violence of any kind unless it is unavoidable.

Sorry if I sound offended or mad. I'm not.

But this world is a discusting and cruel place because people can not see humanity, but rather choose to see, exist, and operate almost completely by the aura or persona people create around themselves.

They deny the heart that infects every choice and inevitably mucks things up because they deny what it is their heart is telling them.

When you allow your hate and distain to rule your love, then you are close to being lost. (not you Majik, just speaking generally).

The compassion (the true compassion) and love has been stripped from American culture, politics, and society. Family is going on dead, and community is following close behind.

I am saddened almost all day of every day at the conduct of people who don't know the reality of their own words.

So I begin here and in my own circle of friends to try and bring compassion and love to people again.

ATS could use some at the moment.

[edit on 16-1-2005 by KrazyJethro]



posted on Jan, 16 2005 @ 09:55 PM
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I think this is germaine to the discussion, and apologize if this is seen as a breach of confidence of a U2U from cavscout, although I find no dishonor in his words:




so I can hope you would understand why I prefer to talk about the people who are actually defending us, rather than the people who aren't but like to pretend they are.


I can only assume that was an attack directed at me. I will have you know that I am U.S. Army Cavalry Scout. I served in Sadr City, Iraq, with 2/2 ACR. I got back in April. I was discharged from service on Dec 8th with an honorable discharge for tearing a tendon in my wrist while in Iraq last Christmas morning during an IED attack.

Maybe next time you feel like accusing someone of "pretending" to defend "us" you should find someone who didn't receive a Purple Heart in the last 12 months.


No, it's not an attack on my part, and I apologize for the false alarm.

I'm not attacking you, and already familiar with some of your credentials.

I take responsibility for any misunderstanding, but wish to point out that my wingman Ezra Brooks has an itchy trigger finger.

Majic

I suppose my beef may be somewhat of a strawman, but basically what I am sick and tired of are people talking smack about attacking the U.S. Government instead of becoming politically involved.

I am aware that my reaction in this thread may seem overblown, off-topic and perhaps misinformed, and I can live with that.

It's just that I have way too many former friends who have decided that running around in the mountains with an AR-15 is more patriotic than participating in our legal political process.

I don't mean to knock the chops of anyone here in specific, especially you guys you have taken one for Uncle Sam (I did not, unless you count a cracked tailbone, and I'm not complaining about that [although that tailbone business hurt like screaming hell]).

I'm just sick of all the hotheaded posery that masquerades as "patriotism" these days -- and for the past twenty years -- and have some opinions about that. Strong ones.

I suppose I jumped the gun here, if you'll pardon the pun, but having been freaking bombarded with endless "militia" bullcrap for over two decades, I hope you can understand why I'm a little more "blinky" than maybe a sane, rational adult American male should normally be.

What I'm trying to say is that, love it or hate it, we have the government we deserve. If you don't like it, I don't think it's beyond fixing.

If you disagree, then remember who it was that gave up on constitutional government in this country instead of trying to fix it.

The time to pick up a rifle and start taking shots at uniformed American soldiers is when we can no longer elect new representatives, and not one freakin' moment sooner.

And frankly I'm not sure even then that we should be shooting at our own guys.

Again, I'm sorry to anyone I've offended with my blunt bull-in-china-shop commentary. I'm not out to rag on anyone here, per se, just the mentality that holds a gun superior to the ballot box.

If that happens to be you, then piss off. If not, then I'm not knocking you, and don't get your panties in a bunch.



posted on Jan, 16 2005 @ 10:19 PM
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Originally posted by cavscout
General Z, you may just be a dirty communist, but your my kinda dirty communist.


haha! many thanks!



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