Autogynephilia: The Elephant in the Transgender Bathroom

a reply to: new_here

Thank you for sharing those links... probably appropriate... but... oh wow.

Example 3 -- when he hears female prounouns???

Oh crap. I didn't want to know that.

originally posted by: new_here

originally posted by: luthier

originally posted by: new_here

originally posted by: Gryphon66

originally posted by: new_here
Um, for all the people saying autogynephilia does not exist, I suggest you peruse these threads posted by MtF trans people on reddit. (Content Warning)

Example 1

Example 2

Example 3

Just 3 examples. There are oh so many.

It exists; it is not what OP asserts it is.

Ok, I'm curious about your statement above that AGS is not a subset of transgender. What do you mean by that? Clearly it transgender MtT are the ones turned on at the vision of themselves as women.

Except the transition kills the fetish. So they can't really be trans per sae

I'm not sure I follow... so these men who want be women go to a therapist and endocrinologist and get their estrogen and grow breasts just like every other trans person, and get turned on by their own body. At what point does the transition kill their fetish? Also, do you think they lied to their therapist about their motives, or is the therapy just not indepth enough?

No what is happening is these individuals start transition and often realize it's being a man dressed as a woman that turns them on.

a reply to: Gryphon66

It has nothing to do with someone's GENDER IDENTITY.

It most clearly has to do with those people's gender identity whose threads I linked. Did you read those? They are MtF trans and turned on by the feminized parts of their own bodies. How can you say AGP has nothing to do with the fact they are trans?

originally posted by: luthier

originally posted by: new_here

originally posted by: luthier

originally posted by: new_here

originally posted by: Gryphon66

originally posted by: new_here
Um, for all the people saying autogynephilia does not exist, I suggest you peruse these threads posted by MtF trans people on reddit. (Content Warning)

Example 1

Example 2

Example 3

Just 3 examples. There are oh so many.

It exists; it is not what OP asserts it is.

Ok, I'm curious about your statement above that AGS is not a subset of transgender. What do you mean by that? Clearly it transgender MtT are the ones turned on at the vision of themselves as women.

Except the transition kills the fetish. So they can't really be trans per sae

I'm not sure I follow... so these men who want be women go to a therapist and endocrinologist and get their estrogen and grow breasts just like every other trans person, and get turned on by their own body. At what point does the transition kill their fetish? Also, do you think they lied to their therapist about their motives, or is the therapy just not indepth enough?

No what is happening is these individuals start transition and often realize it's being a man dressed as a woman that turns them on.

Why the hell did the therapist not catch that? There are apparently a lot of them around.

originally posted by: Boadicea
a reply to: new_here

Thank you for sharing those links... probably appropriate... but... oh wow.

Example 3 -- when he hears female prounouns???

Oh crap. I didn't want to know that.

I know. It's quite disturbing. These are not people I wish to share a bathroom/lockeroom with.

originally posted by: kaylaluv
a reply to: IlluminatiTechnician

Then you DO agree that churches are not a place of solace, and should be shut down to eliminate one more place that predators can go to do their thing.

Good.

Again, with the illusory comprehension. I was in no way talking bout churches having anything to do with Pedophilia. It's not a Church that rapes a little boy, it's a Deacon or a Rabi or whatever the hell they're called, that is doing the raping. If all churches were gone, they would still rape little boys in refugee camps, ice cream trucks or wherever. I get it, you hate religion, but I was not referencing churches in the least, so how about you snap back to reality and stay on topic. BTW, I don't agree with you at all, so....Good.

originally posted by: Boadicea
a reply to: new_here

Thank you for sharing those links... probably appropriate... but... oh wow.

Example 3 -- when he hears female prounouns???

Oh crap. I didn't want to know that.

So your basically writing an article that completely perverts what modern psychology uses this definition for.

This topic is around fetishes. It encompasses far more than the trans community and these and to have AGS you don't want to be woman. You want to dress like a woman but be a man and are turned on by this.

Nice though you finally present that this theory is not really used to diagnose a population like you have. It's used to classify a form of fetish. That is what I mean between Dr and patient. It isn't like being a psychopath. The psychological state of the AGS is not at all defined like your op. You presented it as if this is how the medical community views the subject.

originally posted by: awareness10
a reply to: IlluminatiTechnician

love your avatar bg!

Thanks. Your's isn't so bad either.

Boadicia just did some quoting from the Wikipedia article "Blanchard's transsexualism typology" without providing a link:

Here is the link to the Wiki article

Some interesting items from that article that didn't get quoted above ...

The theory has been the subject of protests in the transgender community, which peaked with the publication of Bailey's The Man Who Would Be Queen in 2003. Following the publication of Bailey's book, Blanchard distinguished between the value of the theory as a behavioral description, versus as an explanation of transsexualism and that only further scientific research could resolve the latter question. The World Professional Association for Transgender Health (WPATH) does not support the theory, citing a need for further research. WPATH also criticize the theory as being stigmatizing due to focusing on behavior instead of distress.

So the originator of the "theory" himself states that there has been insufficient research to prove its validity.

Perhaps we should take his word for it?

Boadicia was also excited by the comment about Larry Nutbrock's work.

I fear this is one of those instances in which Wikipedia fails to accurately represent the facts.

Here is Nutbrock's study: A Further Assessment of Blanchard’s Typology of Homosexual Versus Non-Homosexual or Autogynephilic Gender Dysphoria

Here is the statement from the abstract:

Contrary to Blanchard, differences in transvestic fetishism were observed across subtypes of the non-homosexuals, and linear (not curvilinear) associations were found along a continuous measurement of gynephilia and transvestic fetishism. Age and ethnicity, in addition to sexual orientation, were found to be statistically significant predictors of transvestic fetishism. The clinical, etiological, and sociopolitical implications of these findings are discussed.

a reply to: Gryphon66
a reply to: new_here

Not to derail your discussion, but just to clarify a couple things....

As I've already noted (so forgive the repetition), under that big "T" umbrella are lots of different little "t's," from those who fully transition to those who partially transition to those who don't transition at all. Transsexuals specifically are those who have fully transitioned -- top and bottom surgery, as well as hormone treatment.

And I did not say that autogynephiles automatically progress to violence, nor did I suggest any links or quotes say that, but that it depends on individual circumstances, including related disorders, as well as other factors (with supporting links).

originally posted by: new_here
a reply to: Gryphon66

It has nothing to do with someone's GENDER IDENTITY.

It most clearly has to do with those people's gender identity whose threads I linked. Did you read those? They are MtF trans and turned on by the feminized parts of their own bodies. How can you say AGP has nothing to do with the fact they are trans?

I can say it because those are anecdotal comments not scientific studies.

I can also say it puts the lie to OPs assertion that "no one is talking about AGP."

Question: Why do you want to prove this non-existent connection so badly? What's your concern?

originally posted by: Boadicea
a reply to: Gryphon66
a reply to: new_here

Not to derail your discussion, but just to clarify a couple things....

As I've already noted (so forgive the repetition), under that big "T" umbrella are lots of different little "t's," from those who fully transition to those who partially transition to those who don't transition at all. Transsexuals specifically are those who have fully transitioned -- top and bottom surgery, as well as hormone treatment.

And I did not say that autogynephiles automatically progress to violence, nor did I suggest any links or quotes say that, but that it depends on individual circumstances, including related disorders, as well as other factors (with supporting links).

And you say that like you're informing us of something we don't know. Gee, thanks.

There are any many "little t's" as there are individuals ... that's what you're talking about ... individual choices, approaches, beliefs, desires, etc. not a taxonomy that proves your point. And no Trans* people are NOT limited those who have fully transitioned.

Care to cite evidence for your choice of definition?

originally posted by: Gryphon66

originally posted by: new_here

originally posted by: Gryphon66

originally posted by: new_here
Um, for all the people saying autogynephilia does not exist, I suggest you peruse these threads posted by MtF trans people on reddit. (Content Warning)

Example 1

Example 2

Example 3

Just 3 examples. There are oh so many.

It exists; it is not what OP asserts it is.

Ok, I'm curious about your statement above that AGP is not a subset of transgender. What do you mean by that? Clearly it transgender MtT are the ones turned on at the vision of themselves as women.

AGP is a sexual fetish or kink or paraphilia. In some cases, perhaps, a paraphilic disorder.

It has nothing to do with someone's GENDER IDENTITY. Gender identity is not merely about "being turned on" that is paraphilia.

Yes exactly.

The OP is simply fearmongering.

Sexual Assault and Domestic Violence Organizations Debunk 'Bathroom Predator Myth'

A coalition of over 200 national, state and local organizations across the U.S. that work with sexual assault and domestic violence survivors are objecting to the justifications given by lawmakers to forbid transgender people from using the bathroom of their choosing.

Palumbo said she believes people “must understand the facts about sexual assault,” adding that in 8 out of 10 cases the victim already knows the person who sexually assaulted them, citing Justice Department statistics. However, 64 percent of transgender people will experience sexual assault in their lifetime, she said, citing a study by the National Gay and Lesbian Task Force and National Center for Transgender Equality.

abcnews.go.com...

Not to diminish the significance of sexual attacks on women, but 80% of them know their attackers - so a stranger who is a transgender person is not the one to be worrying about.

64% of transgender folk will experience sexual assault compared to 25% of all women in their lifetime (both estimates based on the fact that many sexual assaults go unreported)

So, who is the real person in danger I ask? The natural born woman or the transgender person?

originally posted by: luthier

originally posted by: Boadicea
a reply to: new_here

Thank you for sharing those links... probably appropriate... but... oh wow.

Example 3 -- when he hears female prounouns???

Oh crap. I didn't want to know that.

So your basically writing an article that completely perverts what modern psychology uses this definition for.

This topic is around fetishes. It encompasses far more than the trans community and these and to have AGS you don't want to be woman. You want to dress like a woman but be a man and are turned on by this.

Nice though you finally present that this theory is not really used to diagnose a population like you have. It's used to classify a form of fetish. That is what I mean between Dr and patient. It isn't like being a psychopath. The psychological state of the AGS is not at all defined like your op. You presented it as if this is how the medical community views the subject.

It's not just a fetish and the psychological community does not just blow off Blanchard and autogynephilia, no matter how much the apologists want to think that it is so:

The relative cutoffs for clusters on scales of androphilia and gynephilia were almost equivalent to those of Blanchard...

Link

This is recent, peer reviewed and legitimate. There is nuance certainly within transsexuals, although I don't know that you could apply a continuum. Regardless, yes it's real, and yes the psychological community acknowledges it and Blanchard isn't taken with quite the grain of salt some would portray.

a reply to: Gryphon66

Boadicia just did some quoting from the Wikipedia article "Blanchard's transsexualism typology" without providing a link:

Here is the link to the Wiki article...

Shame on me. Thank you for posting it.

originally posted by: Boadicea

And I did not say that autogynephiles automatically progress to violence, nor did I suggest any links or quotes say that, but that it depends on individual circumstances, including related disorders, as well as other factors (with supporting links).

On the contrary ...

originally posted by: Boadicea

~~ We've been told that these men do not want to be noticed and just want to do their business. This is a mistruth. Autogynephiles not only want to be seen, their sexual gratification demands that they been seen and acknowledged and treated as a woman. Autogynephiles demand that we role play in their sexual fantasies.
Becoming what we Love -- Autogynephilic Transsexualism

originally posted by: Boadicea
~~ We've been told that these men are no more of a threat than any other man. This is a half truth. We know that transgender men are convicted for crimes at the same rate as all men. We also know that 98% of sex offenders are men. We know that of the 88% who identify it as one of their top three fetishes, about 60% of these sex offenders identify crossdressing (autogynephilia) as their primary fetish. Hence, we know that transgender men are at least as great a threat to women and girls as any other man. (We do not know what percentage of transgender people are autogynephiles... and I suspect that this is by design).
Long-Term Follow-Up of Transsexual Persons Undergoing Sex Reassignment Surgery: Cohort Study in Sweden
The Search for the Best Estimate of the Transgender Population

Emphasis mine. Which men? "These men" ... Autogynephilics

a reply to: redhorse

You link goes to nothing.

Care to provide us with more than the one sentence you think proves your point?

Thank you kindly.

originally posted by: redhorse

originally posted by: luthier

originally posted by: Boadicea
a reply to: new_here

Thank you for sharing those links... probably appropriate... but... oh wow.

Example 3 -- when he hears female prounouns???

Oh crap. I didn't want to know that.

So your basically writing an article that completely perverts what modern psychology uses this definition for.

This topic is around fetishes. It encompasses far more than the trans community and these and to have AGS you don't want to be woman. You want to dress like a woman but be a man and are turned on by this.

Nice though you finally present that this theory is not really used to diagnose a population like you have. It's used to classify a form of fetish. That is what I mean between Dr and patient. It isn't like being a psychopath. The psychological state of the AGS is not at all defined like your op. You presented it as if this is how the medical community views the subject.

It's not just a fetish and the psychological community does not just blow off Blanchard and autogynephilia, no matter how much the apologists want to think that it is so:

The relative cutoffs for clusters on scales of androphilia and gynephilia were almost equivalent to those of Blanchard...

Link

This is recent, peer reviewed and legitimate. There is nuance certainly within transsexuals, although I don't know that you could apply a continuum. Regardless, yes it's real, and yes the psychological community acknowledges it and Blanchard isn't taken with quite the grain of salt some would portray.

Your source doesn't work.

It's a fetish.

And Blanchards work is definitely taken with a grain of salt.

a reply to: Gryphon66

We've been told that these men do not want to be noticed and just want to do their business. This is a mistruth. Autogynephiles not only want to be seen, their sexual gratification demands that they been seen and acknowledged and treated as a woman. Autogynephiles demand that we role play in their sexual fantasies.

Come on, Gryphon, you can do better than that. I made that comment in the context of violence being an "automatic," not the sexual desire for others to see them as women. The latter is the very premise and foundation of the AGP; the other is a a potential variable. I'm so disappointed.

Need I say it again? This is beneath both of us. I'm not doing this.

originally posted by: IlluminatiTechnician
If all churches were gone, they would still rape little boys in refugee camps, ice cream trucks or wherever.

Very true. Same could be said about predators in women's bathrooms. A predator is going to do what a predator wants to do, no matter what. Banning transgenders from the bathroom of their gender identity isn't going to stop it.