BREXIT: the full movie. Why England MUST vote to leave the EU.

Anyone able to provide one strong positive reason for staying in the EU yet?

a reply to: 83Liberty

Jobs, freedom of movement, ECHR. I Understand these aren't important to everyone, but they are to lots of people who have benefitted from them.

originally posted by: surfer_soul
a reply to: gladtobehere

Good to see the movie given it's own dedicated thread rather than buried at about page 177 in that other thread.

Also what many don't realize is that the British were hoodwinked into what was then known as the Common wealth in the first place.


common market, common wealth already existed, it is the group of countries that were once part of the British empire.

originally posted by: woodwardjnr
a reply to: 83Liberty

Jobs, freedom of movement, ECHR. I Understand these aren't important to everyone, but they are to lots of people who have benefitted from them.

Can you be more specific in your answer? I am asking for ONE strong positive reason for staying in the EU.

The answers you provided fail to fall into that category considering there are many highly negative consequences associated with them.

a reply to: 83Liberty

Because if you own a business that sells in Europe the eu is nearly 50% of your market. Not to be sniffed at for any business concerned with making money

a reply to: woodwardjnr

More importantly, no-one can predict the reaction of our EU trading partners to a UK "Leave" vote. I have to say that I take a very pessimistic view - a "Leave" vote will be seen as Little Englander arrogance, with the EU raising its collective second finger while we look nervously around the playground to see if there is anyone else's gang we can join. I predict a recession so swift and so severe that it will have us wishing we were back in 2008. I just hope I am proved wrong.

originally posted by: woodwardjnr
a reply to: 83Liberty

Because if you own a business that sells in Europe the eu is nearly 50% of your market. Not to be sniffed at for any business concerned with making money

Well that's not entirely accurate is it.
Only because the latest figure shows that 48% of our EXPORTS go to the EU, it doesn't mean every business exports 48% of their goods to the EU.

If we Leave...
- We would still trade with the EU.
- We may also get a free trade agreement similar to the one we have.
- We could start making our own trade agreements around the World, which we are currently forbidden to.

So I believe your reason is not only a not good enough reason to vote Remain, it is actually inaccurate.

originally posted by: 83Liberty
Anyone able to provide one strong positive reason for staying in the EU yet?

We share information about terrorism and possible terrorists with every other EU Country at the moment. Do you still believe this will be the case when we are no longer part of Europe. ?

If i was France, Belgium, Holland, Germany et al i wouldn't be trying too hard to prevent Terrorist leaving those countries and entering Britain if Britain decides to leave.
Thanks for the leg up France, Holland, Germany Italy et al, We know we were the Poor man of Europe before we joined, but now we dont need you, so we are off. If i was France and the UK left the EU giving it the big F### you, i would pull ever single border guard from the Calais Jungle and turn a blind eye when the French Workers Blockade the Channel Tunnel. Nothing in, Nothing Out.

Human rights Protection, Workers Rights protection. Two things the Tories would completely strip from the average joe in the first month we are out.

No More Eu Subsides for the UK. How many times have you seen a signs next to a huge building project saying, In Partnership with the EU..?
No more Farmers Subsides.
Oh and 2.2 million Brits living in Europe might just start finding things getting very difficult for them. And you might find something as simple as free movement ie (A Holiday) within the EU a nightmare. eg, If i want to go to America i need to go to either Northern Ireland or London first for a Visa. That all costs ££££...

Could very easily be the same scenario if i wanted to go on a booze filled weekend to the Dam after Brexit. no more jumping on a ferry with a passport. Visa first.

There's a few good reasons. Now do you have any good reason for Leaving. ?

originally posted by: Soloprotocol

originally posted by: 83Liberty
Anyone able to provide one strong positive reason for staying in the EU yet?

We share information about terrorism and possible terrorists with every other EU Country at the moment. Do you still believe this will be the case when we are no longer part of Europe. ?

If these terrorists have either links with the UK or are planning something in the UK then YES!! considering we share intelligence with the USA etc and guess what, they are NOT inside the EU.

I am asking for ONE strong positive reason for staying in the EU.
Not a bunch of falsehoods.

Give me YOUR single most STRONG and POSITIVE reason for Remaining in the EU.

I only ask for ONE reason so we can debate it rationally and factually, without missing any details.

I'm not saying there aren't any, just that I haven't heard one which can't be debunked/diminished in some way.

TTIP will destroy public services in the UK.
Workers rights are being eroded under EU rules. I fail to understand why anyone can't see that. A few pages back I posted a link to the RMT website which explained the damage the EU has already done

Interpol is not an eu organisation, nor is Nato . They do more for Intel sharing than the EU.

We never needed visas before the EU so why would that change?

The subsidies you talk about are just a fraction of the money we pay in that are sent back. So why would they stop? The farm payments could still be made and as a nation we would still be better off.

Tell me how great the European arrest warrant is for human rights...

originally posted by: 83Liberty
I am asking for ONE strong positive reason for staying in the EU.
Not a bunch of falsehoods.

Give me YOUR single most STRONG and POSITIVE reason for Remaining in the EU.

I only ask for ONE reason so we can debate it rationally and factually, without missing any details.

I'm not saying there aren't any, just that I haven't heard one which can't be debunked/diminished in some way.

I gave you a few, you so far have chose to ignore them. why should anyone give you more.

originally posted by: Soloprotocol

originally posted by: 83Liberty
I am asking for ONE strong positive reason for staying in the EU.
Not a bunch of falsehoods.

Give me YOUR single most STRONG and POSITIVE reason for Remaining in the EU.

I only ask for ONE reason so we can debate it rationally and factually, without missing any details.

I'm not saying there aren't any, just that I haven't heard one which can't be debunked/diminished in some way.

I gave you a few, you so far have chose to ignore them. why should anyone give you more.

Seriously why can't you comprehend what I'm asking?

Give me YOUR single most STRONG and POSITIVE reason for Remaining in the EU.
I only ask for ONE reason so we can debate it rationally and factually, without missing any details/going off topic.

Your reasons are a bunch of falsehoods.
Your first point which is speculation has already been debunked by me.
The rest of your points have been debunked by Sprocket.

originally posted by: 83Liberty
I am asking for ONE strong positive reason for staying in the EU.

I'll give two.

1. Access to science mega-projects. Whether the Europeans will exclude UK involvement in some of the mega-projects and cut off their noses is questionable, but with the French and the Germans running the European bandwagon should the UK leave, it is a plausible possibility. There are many scientific mega-projects, some with an international complexion, including CERN ( European Organization for Nuclear Research), the European Southern Observatory, ESA, Galileo, European Synchrotron Radiation Facility, International Thermonuclear Experimental Reactor and so on.

2. The one and half million Britons living elsewhere in Europe may have problems.

I am not too fussed with EU immigration (it's the non-EU migration that I am concerned about), and I see both sides of the economic argument. I am more interested in the smaller things that are unanswered, as above examples.

originally posted by: SprocketUK
TTIP will destroy public services in the UK.

Do you Really believe the UK government dont want TTIP. You can be sure they will sign up outside of Europe.

Workers rights are being eroded under EU rules.

Workers rights are being eroded under Tory rule. European courts is the last place we can go to stop the Abuses.

Interpol is not an eu organisation, nor is Nato . They do more for Intel sharing than the EU.

Interpol ar small fry compared to every other countries ability to gather and share information. Interpols budget is somewhere around 80 million Euros..as i said, small fry.

We never needed visas before the EU so why would that change?

And who's gonna stop them. They can do what the hell they like with the UK once we have no say. Even barring you from traveling within Europe for a minor offence you committed in the 70's if they so choose.

The subsidies you talk about are just a fraction of the money we pay in that are sent back. So why would they stop? The farm payments could still be made and as a nation we would still be better off.

OK, give me the figures. Once we are out of Europe and dont pay in, The subsides will stop coming from Europe for everyone living here.

Tell me how great the European arrest warrant is for human rights...

The European courts of human right have intervened in thousands of cases and had decisions either blocked or overturned.

During the Cold War Germany and whole Europe was Britain's first line of defence against the Russkies. Guess where that line will be after Brexit. yip, The east coast of the UK.

a reply to: Soloprotocol

We share information about terrorism and possible terrorists with every other EU Country at the moment. Do you still believe this will be the case when we are no longer part of Europe. ?

Of course, why wouldn't that be the case.
We share information with the USA, Canada, Australia, Norway, etc etc - none of them are in the EU.

We should still view the EU as allies, why wouldn't we.

We will still be a par of NATO etc.

I really don't understand the logic in this reasoning.

To be honest I find it something akin to the clichéd bairn throwing his toys out the pram.

If i was France, Belgium, Holland, Germany et al i wouldn't be trying too hard to prevent Terrorist leaving those countries and entering Britain if Britain decides to leave.

I'm afraid my friend that viewpoint probably reveals more about you than it does anything else.

Thanks for the leg up France, Holland, Germany Italy et al, We know we were the Poor man of Europe before we joined, but now we dont need you, so we are off.

Pretty ironic coming from you and your opinion on Scottish independence....isn't that the exact same attitude you have towards England?

If i was France and the UK left the EU giving it the big F### you, i would pull ever single border guard from the Calais Jungle and turn a blind eye when the French Workers Blockade the Channel Tunnel. Nothing in, Nothing Out.

And I'm sure France's 'master' in Germany would have something to say about that!
Imagine no Mercedes, BMW's etc being allowed to be exported to the UK?

Such bitterness.
In the event of any Scottish independence perhaps we should treat Scotland with such petty vindictiveness?
But then we would be accused of being spiteful, whinging English bastards.
Oh the hypocrisy and double standards.

Solo, it must be hard and so tiring being consumed with such anger.

Human rights Protection, Workers Rights protection. Two things the Tories would completely strip from the average joe in the first month we are out.

Human rights?
Not too sure.
Workers rights?
Definitely - what little we have left that is.

No More Eu Subsides for the UK. How many times have you seen a signs next to a huge building project saying, In Partnership with the EU..?

Never, not once in England.
A couple of times in Wales and the same in Scotland.

All over the place everywhere else in the EU.

Slight disbalance there I'm afraid, a very bad example.

No more Farmers Subsides.

Good.
Then we can try and move towards being slightly more self-sufficient - that's not a bad thing is it?

Oh and 2.2 million Brits living in Europe might just start finding things getting very difficult for them.

Why?
It's not as if we are going to forcibly repatriate all the EU citizens currently living in the UK.

You always seem to think the worst of people...I wonder why?

And you might find something as simple as free movement ie (A Holiday) within the EU a nightmare. eg, If i want to go to America i need to go to either Northern Ireland or London first for a Visa. That all costs ££££...

Never needed a visa prior to joing the EU, why would we if we choose independence from the EU?

Could very easily be the same scenario if i wanted to go on a booze filled weekend to the Dam after Brexit. no more jumping on a ferry with a passport. Visa first.

I refer the Honourable Gentleman to the answer I gave earlier.

There's a few good reasons. Now do you have any good reason for Leaving. ?

Well they weren't very good reasons were they.

And do you honestly believe the examples you gave are worth surrendering sovereignty to a heavily centralised and bureaucratic EU that will have the power to overrule the elected national assembles, including Holyrood?

a reply to: paraphi

It's doubtful that eu scientific projects would want to do without the money and brainpower that the uk can provide.

The Brits living abroad have protections in that there are already precedents allowing for people's right to remain following treaty changes. This is known as the Vienna convention of 1969.

Any forced expulsion of British expats would almost certainly damage foreign investment into that country and open the door to retaliatory measures...you really think that the EU would go down that road? And if they did, what does that do to your impression of it as some bastion of fair play and human rights?

a reply to: Soloprotocol

From the RMT
1. Leave the EU to end attacks on rail workers

New EU rail policies are set to further entrench rail privatisation and fragmentation. That will also mean more attacks or jobs and conditions and EU laws will make it impossible to bring all of rail back into public ownership.

2. Leave the EU to end attacks on seafarers and the offshore workers

The EU has promoted undercutting and social dumping leading to the decimation of UK seafarers. The same is now happening in the offshore sector. EU directives also require the tendering our public ferry services.

3. Leave the EU to end attacks on workers’ rights

It’s a myth that the EU is in favour of workers. In fact the EU is developing a new policy framework to attack trade union rights, collective bargaining, job protections and wages. This is already being enforced in countries which have received EU “bailouts”.

4. Leave the EU to end Austerity

If you join a union you expect members of the union to protect each other in times of trouble. The European Union has done the opposite. It has used the economic crisis to impose austerity and privatization on member states. Instead of protecting jobs and investment EU austerity is driving UK austerity.

5. Leave the EU to stop the attack on our NHS

The Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership (TTIP) trade agreement being negotiated between the EU and the United States will promote big business at the expense government protections and organisations including our NHS! Environmental regulations, employment rights, food safety, privacy laws and many other safeguards will also be secondary to the right of corporations to make even bigger profits.

6. Leave the EU to support democracy

The vast majority of the laws that affects our lives are now made in the EU and not the UK. We have no say over those Laws. As the late Tony Benn said in 1991…

“We are discussing whether the British people are to be allowed to elect those who make the laws under which they are governed. The argument is nothing to do with whether we should get more maternity leave from Madame Papandreou [a European Commissioner].”

Delete post.

a reply to: Soloprotocol

Repeatedly wouldn't let me post the last bit of my previous reply so here's another attempt.

No more Farmers Subsides.

Increased self-sufficiency wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing, would it?

Oh and 2.2 million Brits living in Europe might just start finding things getting very difficult for them.

Why?
Are EU nationals really that vindictive and hateful?
It's not as if we would forcibly repatriate EU citizens currently living here.

And you might find something as simple as free movement ie (A Holiday) within the EU a nightmare. eg, If i want to go to America i need to go to either Northern Ireland or London first for a Visa. That all costs ££££...

We didn't need a visa before, why would we now?

Could very easily be the same scenario if i wanted to go on a booze filled weekend to the Dam after Brexit. no more jumping on a ferry with a passport. Visa first.

If that's the case then so be it - hardly a big reason for not coming out of the EU.
On the grand scale of things it's pretty trivial really isn't it?

There's a few good reasons. Now do you have any good reason for Leaving. ?

To be fair they are not really that good are they?
And certainly not good enough reasons to allow the transfer of sovereignty to the heavily centralised, dictatorial and bureaucratic EU that will have even greater power to overrule constituent nations elected assemblies, including Holyrood.

Any lingering romantic notions you have of an independent Scotland will be gone forever if we choose to Remain.