The argument for Trump.

originally posted by: Ksihkehe
stop being the world police.

Trump said he would “build up the military so strong and so powerful” so that “we’ll never have to use it” because no one will mess with the United States.

You dont buy a fleet of cars unless you are planning on driving it. Nobody has messed with the US since WW2, and even then you can debate points on blockades and such.

Suggesting Donald Trump is a peacenik is like suggesting Ming the Merciless is a boy scout.


I like some of the ideas Trump puts forward. several actually, but he is about as presidential as animal from the muppets.

originally posted by: NthOther
That's how I'd like to feel.

But when a politician (and Trump is a politician, make no mistake) resonates with someone, they begin to have lofty expectations of that person's ideals and capabilities. Unrealistically lofty expectations.

Trump isn't going to be able to accomplish dick without turning into a dictator (not that I think that's going to happen). So, he's simply going to get into office and do what every president does:

Play ball. Go along to get along.

I'd love to think he'd bust everything wide open. I want to. I really do.

But I can't. Because I've seen this movie a hundred times already and I know how it ends.

First I have to thank everybody, you included, that has responded with thoughtful posts absent the ridiculous rhetoric we've been seeing lately. I think this may be the first political thread I've seen in a while that hasn't degenerated (yet) into nonsense and personal attacks. It's refreshing.

I understand your thoughts on this and can't blame you for feeling this way. I am reminded though of a passage from "Shogun" by James Clavell. Anybody who hasn't read it I would strongly recommend it. In the passage he is speaking about falcons and their use for hunting. Ultimately it boils down to knowing the purpose of the tool you are using. There are falcons that shoot rapidly toward the first target they see and then there are falcons who ride the air and wait for a more specific target. I believe he referenced it as a "long" falcon. I may be remembering it wrong and would love if somebody could find the quote which I have failed to find.

I see Trump as a "long" falcon. I don't expect him to do the work of another politician. I expect him to do exactly what he is suited for. He is well suited to break the whole mess open. He might screw things up, though I doubt it, but I don't think for a moment that the current system will survive him intact. I think we need what he offers. The long game, getting outside the box of Democrat versus Republican, will benefit from Trump. He isn't necessarily where we need to be as a country but he will position us, as an electorate body, to be where we need to. I think electing him will open the door for others who will create the change we need.

This isn't a short game and we need to do whatever is required to win the long game. I think, after Bernie is robbed of the nomination, those supporters should support Trump. Break the system. We need a reboot.

originally posted by: SaturnFX
Suggesting Donald Trump is a peacenik is like suggesting Ming the Merciless is a boy scout.


I like some of the ideas Trump puts forward. several actually, but he is about as presidential as animal from the muppets.

What is presidential and what has that concept gotten us?

Is Obama presidential? His most recent mandate? I have been a strong supporter of people using whatever bathroom they wish, who the hell cares about the person taking a dump next to you in another stall? Now things have gone a step too far. Now children who are confused, and let's not argue that children are confused about their identity as a whole, can use whichever locker area they wish. It's silly.

We have debt that is in the 10's of thousands for every citizen in the country, but we're not worried about that. We're telling schools that a teenage boy must be allowed to use the girls showers if he believes he is transgendered... but we're not addressing the debt which could, and will, end up crippling our country.

What is presidential and what should the highest position in our country be focused on? I believe that the circus should leave town and we need to get back to business. We need to focus on important things no matter how uncomfortable they might be. The transgendered teen might be able to use the girls bathroom, but will they be able to get a job when they graduate? What's more important?

originally posted by: JoshuaCox

But what is that??


Is it the moderate dem he has been his entire life previous to 5 years ago?

Is he the conservative cartoon of this election cycle?

One thing is undeniable...Hillarry may be status quo, but no one has any clue who the real trump is....

He may be a savior, or a disaster, no one it trump knows for sure....

I just can't believe no one is worried about this lies and flip flops...

Lies and Flip-flops are what we get no matter the nominee. That can almost be completely ignored at this point. We might get to a place where that will not be the case, but we cannot do so until we get rid of the constant left/right paradigm we're trapped in. I think Trump is the first step.

a reply to: Ksihkehe

"First I have to thank everybody, you included, that has responded with thoughtful posts absent the ridiculous rhetoric we've been seeing lately. I think this may be the first political thread I've seen in a while that hasn't degenerated (yet) into nonsense and personal attacks. It's refreshing."

I was thinking the exact same thing as I went into page 2. I totally agree with everything you've said in this thread. Unfortunately, many Bernie supporters will vote democrat over trump. Society may be too conditioned still to break free of the 2 party paradigm, the millennials aren't old enough to get their way yet. Interesting also how millennials are so wholly against Trump, there was even a protest against him at a high school last night by me in Portland. I think if he had run as an independent it wouldn't have been that way, as he wouldn't have had to open with his wall rhetoric. Trump represents everything most Americans want to be & think they're entitled to, meanwhile the destruction of modern education hasn't taught them a single thing about how our economy will prevent almost literally all of them from achieving it.
Trump knows business & bankruptcy, but it seems most Americans refuse to believe their country is both of those things.


Note: I'm a millennial (28)

originally posted by: Gothmog

And if you have witnessed this 100s of times , you must be older than I am...as far as I know I have only saw the game 13 at best.

Well, I'm including movies starring congresspersons, governors, and state goons as well.

The presidency isn't the only office that functions this way. They all do. It's the nature of partisan politics.

originally posted by: Alien Abduct

...can you give me five reasons why Trump is a politician?

I don't know about five, but let's see:

He is running for political office (only the highest in the land), and has to play the same game all politicians do. If you think he's "bucking the system" and doesn't have to play the game, you've been hoodwinked--he's just playing it so expertly you don't know you're being conned (the mark of a politician who has honed his craft).

You don't get to Trump's position in life without knowing how to grease the machine. How many politicians asses has he had to kiss to get his billion-dollar deals done? You can't set up a hot dog stand in NYC without hacking your way through miles of red tape and shelling out exorbitant sums of cash in licenses, fees and permits. He plays the game. He knows the people. And he manipulates all of it.

He plays the side that will profit him the most. He was a Clinton supporter (both of them) until he decided to run for president. Now he's directly opposing one.

And now he will have to lie, backtrack, deflect, and use any other tactic he can to distance himself from his former friend.

Stab her in the back, in other words. You can't get more establishment politic than that.

Not five reasons, but I think it's a good(?) start.

a reply to: SmurfRider

Welcome, awakened millenial. We, the older generations, are going to need you.

There's much to dislike if you follow Trump on Twitter.

It's been said, appropriately in my opinion, that Trump is bad at choosing his words but good at making decisions. I think we need to focus on his actions rather than his words.

originally posted by: NthOther

He is running for political office (only the highest in the land), and has to play the same game all politicians do. If you think he's "bucking the system" and doesn't have to play the game, you've been hoodwinked--he's just playing it so expertly you don't know you're being conned (the mark of a politician who has honed his craft).

For the most part, I am in total agreement. But I'd like to comment on the above point and why I think this argument doesn't vibe with Trump supporters:

It used to be that our Congressmen, Presidents, what have you used to be elected to be involved with our politics but being politicians isn't necessarily all they were. Most would do their elected job whole in Session/in office and then return to being farmers or tanners or whatever the hecks when they were done performing their duties as elected officials.

I think Trump represents a harkening back to this time in a lot of peoples minds. Some see him as someone that while although he has played the game, he is a successful businessman in his own right. I believe that they honestly believe he will be elected, serve his duty as President and then retire back to his own interests, away from the revolving door of the political beltway.

I think many of us long for a time when career politicians were few and far between. As such, it is easy to see Trump's appeal in this sense to those who truly believe he will faithfully execute his duty as President, representing the "common" man.

Whether or not he is actually representative of these things, signaling a turn away from corruption and back to public service, remains to be seen. I'm not holding my breath, I don't think that is the case. If it is, I'll be the first one on here eating my shoe and praising his leadership.

My rambling on that insight aside, great post! I agree with your assessment.

originally posted by: Ksihkehe

originally posted by: JoshuaCox

But what is that??


Is it the moderate dem he has been his entire life previous to 5 years ago?

Is he the conservative cartoon of this election cycle?

One thing is undeniable...Hillarry may be status quo, but no one has any clue who the real trump is....

He may be a savior, or a disaster, no one it trump knows for sure....

I just can't believe no one is worried about this lies and flip flops...

Lies and Flip-flops are what we get no matter the nominee. That can almost be completely ignored at this point. We might get to a place where that will not be the case, but we cannot do so until we get rid of the constant left/right paradigm we're trapped in. I think Trump is the first step.

Awe come on....Trumps lies and flip flops have definately "trumped" everyone else's...at least in volume if not substance...


We can literally trust nothing that comes out of his mouth...


That said I don't think he is a particularly bad guy....

originally posted by: [post=20755199] joshuacox

Awe come on....Trumps lies and flip flops have definately "trumped" everyone else's...at least in volume if not substance...


We can literally trust nothing that comes out of his mouth...


That said I don't think he is a particularly bad guy....

Do his lies and flip-flops really match up with other politicians? I doubt it. We have a real problem with career politicians. I doubt he holds a candle to them.

originally posted by: Ksihkehe

originally posted by: SaturnFX
Suggesting Donald Trump is a peacenik is like suggesting Ming the Merciless is a boy scout.


I like some of the ideas Trump puts forward. several actually, but he is about as presidential as animal from the muppets.

What is presidential and what has that concept gotten us?

First world nation status, highest gdp on earth, top 10 richest country, cultural export globally, unified stances against enemies, etc.
Once people become sick of America, they will stop buying our crap, watching our movies, etc..then what?
Having a president be presidental is a good thing..it makes people like our culture more, and in turn, visit, push tourist bucks into our economy, buy our products overseas, etc.
basic economics dude. if your symbol is a giant piece of vomit, nobody will want to touch that. presidents are mostly just symbolic anyhow.

Is Obama presidential?

Yes.
Is he a good president? we can debate that, but do other nations see him as a inspiration and therefore like america? yes.
And what that does, is make people overseas want our stuff, and that increases GDP, which creates jobs to make said stuff.

a reply to: SaturnFX

Yes, we're great. We have been for quite some time. Obama has nothing to do with it. After his cronies leave the Fed we'll be suffering from a depression worse than the 2008 housing bubble.

I'm not certain which country you speak of that, collectively, is inspired by him. Care to link me to that?

originally posted by: Ksihkehe
a reply to: SaturnFX

Yes, we're great. We have been for quite some time. Obama has nothing to do with it.

You asked what has being presidental ever got us...
..everything is the answer, you didn't ask what has obama specifically done that significantly increased or decreased anything. we are discussing trump here, not obama.

I'm not certain which country you speak of that, collectively, is inspired by him. Care to link me to that?

Global view of Obama
Compare it to Trump
Take your pick

Expect if Trump gains the white house for the US to be considered the land of idiots to mock globally, and us image to be something to be embarassed about. this is how the world views our politics.
being presidental counts
being cordial counts
you dont elect a spastic gorilla and say that is who represents the best of us.

Yall really need to lower those expectations of Trump.

The people as in the mob may say they want 'change', but they are not ready or willing, and I doubt they will ever be.

If you hate Washington DC as every should.

Never forget that it is a mirror reflection of the people.

Until the people change. Washington DC will never change.

a reply to: Ksihkehe

The argument for Trump?

Hillary.

originally posted by: NthOther

originally posted by: Ksihkehe Even so, no matter what I disagree with, I can't wait for him to smash open the whole disgusting system. I can't wait to watch it burn.

That's how I'd like to feel. But when a politician (and Trump is a politician, make no mistake) resonates with someone, they begin to have lofty expectations of that person's ideals and capabilities. Unrealistically lofty expectations. Trump isn't going to be able to accomplish dick without turning into a dictator (not that I think that's going to happen). So, he's simply going to get into office and do what every president does: Play ball. Go along to get along. I'd love to think he'd bust everything wide open. I want to. I really do. But I can't. Because I've seen this movie a hundred times already and I know how it ends.

On the contrary, I think he will have so many common sense ideas, that congress will have to get on-board, or suffer the wrath of their constituents, because Trump will call them out, and it won't just be the kind of ranting Obama does that only makes him look like a retard, plus everything Obama has done has been shady and fails as well, and wastes money and feeds the corrupt, and everyone knows it and just hangs their heads in disgust like beaten dogs.

That won't be the case with a Trump presidency, he will respond with a big "You are Fired"! which will result in many heads rolling in both parties who only want the status quo to remain relevant.

originally posted by: NoCorruptionAllowed

originally posted by: NthOther

originally posted by: Ksihkehe Even so, no matter what I disagree with, I can't wait for him to smash open the whole disgusting system. I can't wait to watch it burn.

That's how I'd like to feel. But when a politician (and Trump is a politician, make no mistake) resonates with someone, they begin to have lofty expectations of that person's ideals and capabilities. Unrealistically lofty expectations. Trump isn't going to be able to accomplish dick without turning into a dictator (not that I think that's going to happen). So, he's simply going to get into office and do what every president does: Play ball. Go along to get along. I'd love to think he'd bust everything wide open. I want to. I really do. But I can't. Because I've seen this movie a hundred times already and I know how it ends.

On the contrary, I think he will have so many common sense ideas, that congress will have to get on-board, or suffer the wrath of their constituents, because Trump will call them out, and it won't just be the kind of ranting Obama does that only makes him look like a retard, plus everything Obama has done has been shady and fails as well, and wastes money and feeds the corrupt, and everyone knows it and just hangs their heads in disgust like beaten dogs.

That won't be the case with a Trump presidency, he will respond with a big "You are Fired"! which will result in many heads rolling in both parties who only want the status quo to remain relevant.

It will nearly impossible to unite the GOP against Trump if he is president..

If Bernie or espeacially Hillary wins, the GOP house and senate will instantly unite against them..meaning we have another 4-8 years of grid lock.

I think Trump bamboozaled the GOP...

From his own mouth, he is pro choice, pro amnesty, pro min wage hike and pro single payer option...


Well what if trump is willing to trade all of those things to ensure his legacy, the wall?

The GOP won't be able to unite against him, and plenty of dems will jump ship if he trades all of those things for his Wall...

Maybe making trump the most effective president in years....

originally posted by: SaturnFX

originally posted by: Ksihkehe
a reply to: SaturnFX

Yes, we're great. We have been for quite some time. Obama has nothing to do with it.

You asked what has being presidental ever got us...
..everything is the answer, you didn't ask what has obama specifically done that significantly increased or decreased anything. we are discussing trump here, not obama.

I'm not certain which country you speak of that, collectively, is inspired by him. Care to link me to that?

Global view of Obama
Compare it to Trump
Take your pick

Expect if Trump gains the white house for the US to be considered the land of idiots to mock globally, and us image to be something to be embarassed about. this is how the world views our politics.
being presidental counts
being cordial counts
you dont elect a spastic gorilla and say that is who represents the best of us.

It will be really interesting to see if the GOP will be as successful at demonizing the next (not black) democrat president??

I don't think any president in history has been as demonized as obama.. Which I'm sure has nothing to do with him being half black...sarcasm

a reply to: NoCorruptionAllowed

That won't be the case with a Trump presidency, he will respond with a big "You are Fired"! which will result in many heads rolling in both parties who only want the status quo to remain relevant.

News flash: The President cannot fire Congress or the Supreme Court.