If reincarnation is not true, then Elijah did not return before the Christ as prophesized

a reply to: Seede

Pretty sure windword already said this... but Jesus said he was...

Both can't be right... so who would you believe?

Also...

I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.

How does one go in and out of a door... IF he is the door to heaven... how does one leave said place?

Its highly likely reincarnation teaching was removed because it places little value on the church...

Jesus knew all about it, and likely taught it as well...

a reply to: Seede

I believe you have a different concept of Christianity than does ChesterJohn.

Obviously

The Torah tells us that when God created Adam that Adam was a dead soul. Adam was a terrestrial lifeless soul. God then breathed the Spirit of life into Adam's dead soul and Adam then became a living soul or a soul with a spirit of life. At this point the spirit is the celestial life of the terrestrial soul.

The Torah says no such thing! Now you're just making stuff up and adding your own eisegeses, in order to twist your reasoning around. Please provide proof for your assault against the Hebrew creation account, and show where Adam is resurrected from "death" in the Genesis creation account.

At any rate, what difference does it make and what does that have to do with whether or not Elijah returned incarnated as John the Baptist.

What then? Art thou Elias? And he saith, I am not. Art thou that prophet? And he answered, No.

Who are you going to believe, the so called accounts of the priests and Levites or the words of Jesus the Nazarene?

a reply to: windword

I wrote - "The Torah tells us that when God created Adam that Adam was a dead soul. Adam was a terrestrial lifeless soul. God then breathed the Spirit of life into Adam's dead soul and Adam then became a living soul or a soul with a spirit of life. At this point the spirit is the celestial life of the terrestrial soul."

You then answered - "The Torah says no such thing! Now you're just making stuff up and adding your own eisegeses, in order to twist your reasoning around. Please provide proof for your assault against the Hebrew creation account, and show where Adam is resurrected from "death" in the Genesis creation account. At any rate, what difference does it make and what does that have to do with whether or not Elijah returned incarnated as John the Baptist. What then? Art thou Elias? And he saith, I am not. Art thou that prophet? And he answered, No. Who are you going to believe, the so called accounts of the priests and Levites or the words of Jesus the Nazarene? Like I said you don’t need to go to church to be a Christian. If you go to Taco Bell that doesn’t make you a taco. Justin Bieber"

The reason I interpreted Torah as saying what I wrote is as follows;

Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

By this I have assumed that we are discussing terrestrial Adam. Adam was formed and had no life in him. I believe that Adam lay as a dead man simply because Genesis says that the Holy Spirit of God then breathed into his nostrils the breath of life and then Adam became alive. So in order to become alive one has to be dead does he not?

I agree with you that Adam was a terrestrial soul and that we understand that as being the Image of God but he was formed (created) from the elements of this terrestrial universe as being with no life. Now no life is being dead is it not? So I wrote that the life is the portion of the Spirit of God. If I am right then the spirit continues its existence after it has left the terrestrial body.

Then again Genesis tells us that --

Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

"Let us make man in our image, after our likeness" - These two distinct portions of Image (soul) and likeness (Spirit) are taught in Christianity as Body and Spirit.

As with all theology I can be wrong as well as you can be wrong. No need to be angry as we are simply in a discussion of theological beliefs.

Now let me explain Elias (Elijah). There are several accounts of Elias among the Gospel authors and all were authored by the Apostles of Jesus. Each Apostle wrote their own rendition of this question and all three or four renditions are correct and agree. The problem is in how you have interpreted what you have selected to read. Spirit can have several meanings involved in this. You can be in the spirit of God as well as having the Spirit of God or you can be a Spirit of God.

John the Baptist was asked if he was the incarnated Elias. That is a direct question which was answered by John as a resounding "no" -- In other words he was not the reincarnated Elias just as he also said he was not the Christ.

But also he can be in the spirit of Elias just as any person can be in the spirit of God. Not meaning that you can be God but only that you can be in His favor. Reincarnation was not of the Jewish rabbinical teaching. I am not saying that no one believed in reincarnation. What I am saying is that the rabbinical doctrinal teachings did not teach reincarnation in that day and did not accept reincarnation as part of their existence. Neither Jesus or James taught reincarnation.

I am not trying to argue that reincarnation is true or not true but only what is scriptural understanding on my part.

a reply to: Seede

So in order to become alive one has to be dead does he not?

No. First there must be life, which, in this case life is physical incarnation, in order for something to die. Death follows life.

The "spirit" is eternal. Do you think that the "soul" dies when the body stops breathing? In that case, it's the spirit that lives on, right?

Do you think the soul is created through the act of sex and procreation? In that case, then the soul is the vehicle, the "ego", the "personality" that dies when the body dies, but our spiritual essence is eternal.

Now no life is being dead is it not?

No. What has not yet become isn't dead.

There is no biblical tradition of God creating life from death. Nor do I accept your assumption that dirt is dead. IF it were it wouldn't be able to bring forth and nourish life.

There are several accounts of Elias among the Gospel authors and all were authored by the Apostles of Jesus.

No, they weren't, and no, there aren't several accounts.

Spirit can have several meanings involved in this.

The use of the word spirit, soul and ghost are interchangeable and all have, basically, the same meaning in the New Testament. Although, the "spirit" may emanate different qualities, comparable to fire, wind and water.

John the Baptist was asked if he was the incarnated Elias.

Were they asking him, in your opinion, if he was Elijah, who just flew down from heaven, and if his his arms were tired? John the Baptist was born of woman, he didn't fly down from heaven. Why would he say otherwise?

But also he can be in the spirit of Elias just as any person can be in the spirit of God.

Isn't that possession? What else, and who else can possess a person? Did the spirit of Christ possess Jesus?

And if you are willing to accept it, he is Elijah who was to come.

In the end, we will find that we are all one, one with each other, one with the universe and one with god. There is no separation.

a reply to: windword

No. First there must be life, which, in this case life is physical incarnation, in order for something to die. Death follows life.

In procreation there must be life before death and in that I agree. But before incarnation or any life form or procreation existed there had to be a start. You may mince words but I call that lifeless or death. In other words you must have a complete pattern for procreation. That pattern was in the form of Adam from the substance of this terrestrial material. But that pattern had no life of consciousness such as we know consciousness and this terrestrial substance did not have consciousness to motorize the pattern. Consciousness, as we have come to understand, is a separate substance which most all call spirit.

Now there are differences of patterns such as those of animals, fowl, fish etc. with differences in consciousness. Even a tree has life but not the consciousness that the Creator gave Adam. There are everlasting spirits and there are life giving spirits. So that is where we disagree. The Genesis account tells us that the Creator did create all life to procreate. You cannot name one pattern of creation that has not been given the ability to procreate. So in that understanding, all life must have not only physicality but the spirit (whatever that may be) of life.

When a creature ceases to have the spirit of life (dies) that creature's terrestrial substances returns to the terrestrial elements do they not? You call that physicality the body or soul. Then do you believe the consciousness continues to exist and if you do believe the consciousness does continue to exist, is that not the spirit that the Creator breathed in to that creature? Explain how that differs from what I have said.

The "spirit" is eternal. Do you think that the "soul" dies when the body stops breathing? In that case, it's the spirit that lives on, right?

Yes, the spirit (consciousness) is eternal. - Yes, when the soul (body) stops breathing and decays, I call that death. - Yes, the spirit (consciousness) continues to exist.

Do you think the soul is created through the act of sex and procreation? In that case, then the soul is the vehicle, the "ego", the "personality" that dies when the body dies, but our spiritual essence is eternal.

No, a soul is not created since Adam. Adam was the only human pattern. Since the creation of Adam all human souls are procreated. I believe that most people are not aware that the brain is not the mind. The mind is detached from the brain and the brain is nothing but a receptor of the mind. The mind is the consciousness or spirit of the soul which is judged. The soul obeys the mind except when receptors of the soul are damaged or missing.

No. What has not yet become isn't dead. There is no biblical tradition of God creating life from death. Nor do I accept your assumption that dirt is dead. IF it were it wouldn't be able to bring forth and nourish life.

That is strictly word bantering. Let me say then that what has not yet become is lifeless. Would you then agree to that?
There is tradition of Lazarus being restored from death by Jesus is there not? No, dirt is not death or dead and I do not assume otherwise but it has no everlasting spirit by tradition. It also will eventually dissolve at the end time and the decayed souls which came from it.


I wrote - There are several accounts of Elias among the Gospel authors and all were authored by the Apostles of Jesus.

No, they weren't, and no, there aren't several accounts.

Matthew, Mark, Luke and John all wrote of Elias-

In your reasoning you say that John the Baptist was the reincarnated Elias. But then on the Mt. of transfiguration Peter, James, John and Jesus were all together and who then was called forth? Was it Moses and Elias or Moses and John the Baptist? Or was there three who were called forth being Moses, Elias and John the baptist?

Also by your understanding Elias died twice with one death as Elias and another as John the baptist. Yet the scriptures say that ------
Hebrews_9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

Who then stands in Judgement? Elias or John the Baptist?

Did the spirit of Christ possess Jesus?

Jesus had life within Him just as the Father has life within Him. He was not a creation but was begotten from the Father. He had memory of heaven as the Word and memory of Satan being cast out of heaven. His spirit was the same in heaven as in the terrestrial world. Jesus had substance change of His celestial image to a terrestrial image which was His soul. His soul did not perish as terrestrial souls do perish but was restored to His celestial image. He then became the Word of God once again. Jesus' resurrection actually was being restored while our resurrection is rebirth. There is a great difference simply because Jesus had preexistence while we do not have preexistence.

a reply to: Seede

Now there are differences of patterns such as those of animals, fowl, fish etc. with differences in consciousness. Even a tree has life but not the consciousness that the Creator gave Adam. There are everlasting spirits and there are life giving spirits. So that is where we disagree. The Genesis account tells us that the Creator did create all life to procreate.

Consider this creation account, from the Book of Jubilees, which was found with the Dead Sea Scrolls, so I think it gives us good idea of what the Jewish/Hebrew tradition held as far as spiritual creation.

For on the first day He created the heavens which are above and the earth and the waters and all the spirits which serve before him -the angels of the presence, and the angels of sanctification, and the angels [of the spirit of fire and the angels] of the spirit of the winds, and the angels of the spirit of the clouds, and of darkness, and of snow and of hail and of hoar frost, and the angels of the voices and of the thunder and of the lightning, and the angels of the spirits of cold and of heat, and of winter and of spring and of autumn and of summer and of all the spirits of his creatures which are in the heavens and on the earth, (He created) the abysses and the darkness, eventide , and the light, dawn and day, which He hath prepared in the knowledge of his heart.

And thereupon we saw His works, and praised Him, and lauded before Him on account of all His works; for seven great works did He create on the first day.
www.pseudepigrapha.com...

WE according to tradition, as well the all the "spiritual factions of Heaven and Earth, were conscience as spiritual beings, with God, from the moment of creation.

You cannot name one pattern of creation that has not been given the ability to procreate.

These "patterns of creation" do not procreate:

the angels of the presence, and the angels of sanctification, and the angels [of the spirit of fire and the angels] of the spirit of the winds, and the angels of the spirit of the clouds, and of darkness, and of snow and of hail and of hoar frost, and the angels of the voices and of the thunder and of the lightning, and the angels of the spirits of cold and of heat, and of winter and of spring and of autumn and of summer

In your reasoning you say that John the Baptist was the reincarnated Elias. But then on the Mt. of transfiguration Peter, James, John and Jesus were all together and who then was called forth? Was it Moses and Elias or Moses and John the Baptist? Or was there three who were called forth being Moses, Elias and John the baptist?

I believe that the appearance of Elijah was confirmation that Elijah and John the Baptist were one in the same.

Also by your understanding Elias died twice with one death as Elias and another as John the baptist. Yet the scriptures say that ------ Hebrews_9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

Well, first of all, Paul could be wrong. Secondly, the truth is that in reincarnation tradition one returns to source and reevaluates their preexistence and chooses, according to their spiritual learning needs, what do to next. This could be considered to be "the judgement" of which Paul speaks, without violating his doctrine.

You don't suppose the saints are sitting around n Heaven sipping on Pina Coladas while the world goes to hell in a handbag, do you? There's work to be done! One life does not a blissful eternity secure.

a reply to: windword

WE according to tradition, as well the all the "spiritual factions of Heaven and Earth, were conscience as spiritual beings, with God, from the moment of creation.

I did read my Eth Cepher YOVHELIYM - Jubilees and it is almost word for word in the English. I find nothing unscriptural in that post.

Not wanting to put words in your mouth please explain just what do you reference when you highlighted the word WE. Are you believing that this terrestrial creation had preexistence before it was created?

Yes there is a possibility that Hebrews could be wrong just the same as one could say the same of any literature. But no, Paul did not pen Cepher Ivriym - The Pseudepigraphal Cepher to the Hebrews was penned by Timotheus from Italy. Not that it matters much since it has been dissected by the best scholars that have ever existed.

One question. How did reincarnation start? Where is the first incarnated entity originated from in order to reincarnate?

a reply to: Seede

Consider the idea that there is also life else where in this universe... thus there is almost an unlimited number of places a spirit could go... or come from

Oh by the way... Hebrews 9:27 has nothing to do with reincarnation

a reply to: Seede

I did read my Eth Cepher YOVHELIYM - Jubilees and it is almost word for word in the English. I find nothing unscriptural in that post. Not wanting to put words in your mouth please explain just what do you reference when you highlighted the word WE. Are you believing that this terrestrial creation had preexistence before it was created?

WE are the Ain Soph. We are the "WE", as in "Let US" create man in "OUR" image. My point in this thread is to show that reincarnation is not only compatible with Christianity and Judaism, but that it's actually incorporated within its traditions.

I define "God" as everything that exists, did exist, will exist as well what never existed doesn't exist and never will exist. I define God's body as the physical manifestation that naturally arises from the universe itself and God's mind is all consciousness that naturally arises from the universe. Everything that is IS God, and therefore, we are all a part of God's mind and body and WE naturally arose simultaneously with God. There is no separation.

Yes there is a possibility that Hebrews could be wrong just the same as one could say the same of any literature.

Other than Paul's assertion, where is it written that "It is appointed for man to die once and then the Judgement"? Further, if you read the chapter in question, Paul is answering the question, "Does Christ have to reincarnate generation after generation to save future lost souls?" ....Because Paul believed that "Christ" died for the sins of the world. I don't.

a reply to: windword

WE are the Ain Soph. We are the "WE", as in "Let US" create man in "OUR" image. My point in this thread is to show that reincarnation is not only compatible with Christianity and Judaism, but that it's actually incorporated within its traditions.

I now understand your premise even though I am not into mystical Kabbalah. My belief is the first century Nazarene teachings of James who teaches the doctrine of his brother Jesus. I believe it is fruitless to pursue an incompatible subject such as has been discussed knowing that no understanding can be reached. We could never be on the same page.

a reply to: Akragon

a reply to: Seede Consider the idea that there is also life else where in this universe... thus there is almost an unlimited number of places a spirit could go... or come from Oh by the way... Hebrews 9:27 has nothing to do with reincarnation

Yes I have considered the evidence of life forms on other planets and perhaps in or on stars also. But not of the Adamic creation. There is nothing in the biblical account that gives the Adamic creation the authority of any thing other than what is written concerning this world. There could very well be other life forms in this universe. Whether there are life forms with everlasting spirits is not even remotely possible to determine.

Concerning Hebrews 9:27 was given in response to the belief that there is reincarnation in the Adamic creation. Meaning that if a soul reincarnates then that soul must die more than once. Hebrews 9:27 states that a soul dies only once and then is judged. Reincarnation is not compatible with the doctrine of Christ Jesus.

a reply to: Seede

Oh but it is... in fact who is to day that Gods judgement won't be a return trip...

That passage has nothing to do with reincarnation what so ever... Its only believed that it does because people choose to read the one verse and omit the rest of the chapter when they need a counter for reincarnation

The subject being discussed isn't reincarnation... nor does it apply to it...

The subject is whether or not Christ had to die more then once

Nothing more or less...

a reply to: Akragon

That passage has nothing to do with reincarnation what so ever... Its only believed that it does because people choose to read the one verse and omit the rest of the chapter when they need a counter for reincarnation The subject being discussed isn't reincarnation... nor does it apply to it... The subject is whether or not Christ had to die more then once

Hebrews 9:26-28
(26) For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
(27) And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
(28) So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

As verse 27 is given in comparison to verse 28 (which is the subject matter), it is very clear that as it is appointed for men (the Adamic Seed) to die only once as It also was appointed for Jesus to die only once.

Yes Jesus is the subject matter and is likened to men to only die once. That is a comparative teaching and does teach that the only rebirth is that of the resurrection from the terrestrial to the celestial. There is nothing in scripture that teaches rebirth from celestial back to terrestrial.. Even Jesus does nothing of the sort. His second advent will be as the celestial "Word of God." The terrestrial Adamic pattern is the celestial "Word". We were created in the image of the Word and the Word came in His own celestial image but retained his spirit. The Word as Jesus and in the flesh, died only once and taught that, as He died only once , men will also die only once.

Now if you are trying to fit Elias into being taken to a celestial realm and then returning to a terrestrial realm, it simply is not true. Being in the spirit of Elias is not a reincarnated entity. It is simply as being infilled with like mindedness.

a reply to: Seede

And as i've stated, who is to say that Gods judgement will not be a return visit to this or some other planet in the physical realm?

I've heard some Christians say "God doesn't do that"... and even "can't" do that... yet that is placing limits on The Father which is usually not wise.

There is nothing in scripture that teaches rebirth from celestial back to terrestrial.

I disagree... Again, IF Jesus is the door to heaven, how does one go IN and OUT of said door...

Also he stated clearly, No one goes to heaven except those who came from heaven... which implies a return to the physical realm...

Then theres Job... a book that is nothing more then a story but none the less...

And, behold, there came a great wind from the wilderness, and smote the four corners of the house, and it fell upon the young men, and they are dead; and I only am escaped alone to tell thee.

20 Then Job arose, and rent his mantle, and shaved his head, and fell down upon the ground, and worshipped,

21 And said, Naked came I out of my mother's womb, and naked shall I return thither: the Lord gave, and the Lord hath taken away; blessed be the name of the Lord.

As i've said... the teaching of reincarnation has always been around... though it was likely removed from the bible because it relies on the self Rather then the church and its priests for salvation

Fortunately they couldn't remove all traces of it without mutilating the texts

Reincarnation is mentioned in the Bible imo many times. It's all about interpretation of the scriptures however my interpretation says reincarnation is in the Bible many times. lol

www.thenazareneway.com...

a reply to: MamaJ

Reincarnation is mentioned in the Bible imo many times. It's all about interpretation of the scriptures however my interpretation says reincarnation is in the Bible many times. lol

That is your prerogative to believe whatsoever you want to believe and interpret selected incomplete thought of scriptures as you wish. You cannot get around the direct answer to the question regardless of your spin. The scriptures are very clear with out the need for interpretation of other out of context opinions.

John Baptist is not Elijah (Elias) nor ever was Elijah (Elias). John was in the spirit of Elias but was not the spirit of Elias.

Eth Cepher
Besorah Yahuchanon or Gospel of John 1:19-23
(19) And this is the record of Yahuchanon, when the Yahudiym sent priests and Leviyiym from Yerushalayim to ask him, Who are you? (20) And he confessed, and denied not; but confessed, I am not Hamashiach. (21) And they asked him, what then? Are you Eliyahu? And he said, I am not. Are you that prophet? And he answered No. (22) Then said they unto him, Who are you? That we may give an answer to them that sent us. What say you of yourself? (23) He said, I am the voice of one crying in the wilderness, make straight the Way of Yahuah, as said the prophet Yesha’yahu

1611 KJV bible John 1:19-23
(19) And this is the record of John, when the Jews sent priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him, Who art thou? (20) And he confessed, and denied not; but confessed, I am not the Christ. (21) And they asked him, What then? Art thou Elias? And he saith, I am not. Art thou that prophet? And he answered, No. (22) Then said they unto him, Who art thou? that we may give an answer to them that sent us. What sayest thou of thyself? (23) He said, I am the voice of one crying in the wilderness, Make straight the way of the Lord, as said the prophet Esaias.

Now you can spin this with all of your other interpretations of scriptures all you want but you must answer this scripture also. It is clear and precise with a resounding no. There is no need for expert interpretations to understand what is credited to the Apostle John. Don't be foolish and try to change the doctrine of Jesus.

a reply to: Seede

Pretty simple man...

John was wrong on two different situations...

For one he said he wasn't a prophet... Jesus disagrees in Luke...

And for the second, Jesus disagrees about who he was...

He made it very clear that he was Elijah...

So you have one instance where John was wrong about his status as a prophet... So we know for a fact he can easily be wrong about something that was beyond his ability to know in the first place... being the reincarnation of Elijah

a reply to: Seede

Art thou that prophet? And he answered, No.

And.... that would have beeen before or after John The Baptist, supposedly, prophecies this?

I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire: 12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

a reply to: Seede

I'm not spinning anything although I would like to spin your head around the fact there is indeed energy that transforms and doesn't cease. We are always evolving. We are always becoming and any follower of Jesus and his teachings KNOWS this truth because he reveals such in your spirit. I promise you the church doesn't want you to KNOW because how else will they control you other than damning you to hell if you don't follow THEIR way. Has nothing to do with Jesus. The Bible has many layers of truth and imo there are people who will never get it because they haven't transformed/grown enough to actually get it.

"Before I formed you in the womb, I knew you."

a reply to: Akragon

Pretty simple man... John was wrong on two different situations... For one he said he wasn't a prophet... Jesus disagrees in Luke... And for the second, Jesus disagrees about who he was... He made it very clear that he was Elijah... So you have one instance where John was wrong about his status as a prophet... So we know for a fact he can easily be wrong about something that was beyond his ability to know in the first place... being the reincarnation of Elijah

And you have the audacity to believe that you can determine that the Apostle John is wrong? What a mindset of arrogance you have. It is no wonder that you have this self grandeur. Do you realize that Apostle John was the deputy Nasi of the Nazarene synagogue under James the brother of Jesus? And you know more of the Christ then does the Deputy Nasi? You are not in reality at all.

Now I have shown you that John the Baptist came in the spirit and not reincarnate physicality of Elias and you have rejected that truth. Now I want to show you another Apostle and what he had wrote.

Luke 1:13-17
(13) But the angel said unto him, Fear not, Zacharias: for thy prayer is heard; and thy wife Elisabeth shall bear thee a son, and thou shalt call his name John.
(14) And thou shalt have joy and gladness; and many shall rejoice at his birth.
(15) For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.
(16) And many of the children of Israel shall he turn to the Lord their God.
(17) And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.

Now you can also believe that Luke was wrong. You are very well mistaken in your interpretation in this matter and as said before, reincarnation is totally foreign to both Rabbinic Judaism and the doctrine of Jesus.