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If reincarnation is not true, then Elijah did not return before the Christ as prophesized

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posted on May, 23 2016 @ 09:05 AM
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a reply to: windword

Yeah but Ben Pandera means son of the lion as Panther was what lions were called in ancient Egypt and is referring to both the lion of Judah and an initiate in Egyptian wisdom.

It's quite clever actually.




posted on May, 23 2016 @ 09:09 AM
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originally posted by: windword
a reply to: Akragon


After God says 120 years Shem's seed lives past that in decreasing amounts through each generation.

I don't think we know everything about this Shem who's name means name, god or heaven. It is a mystery but I know it is a priesthood like Shamans and Egyptian Sem and Sem Sem.



posted on May, 23 2016 @ 07:43 PM
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a reply to: Akragon

Old ones you have to read the early church fathers they were quite frank at times. I believe this is a letter from a Priest to a Rabbi concerning the Talmud or a story known by insiders.



posted on May, 23 2016 @ 08:06 PM
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a reply to: Parazurvan

I've read most of the early church documents, and i don't recall anything like that being written about...

Perhaps a link might be good?




posted on May, 23 2016 @ 08:29 PM
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a reply to: Raggedyman

How many time have I told you that when I started studying for myself that is when I came to realize it's not all true.



posted on May, 23 2016 @ 08:57 PM
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a reply to: Akragon

And you will remain in that thinking until you rightly divide the NT by the gospels(not the four books) the gospel of the kingdom, the gospel of the Grace of God and the everlasting gospel.

Until then you will always wrongly join and dismiss the scriptures.

One thing I have come to know is this a truly saved person believes ALL the word of God.



posted on May, 23 2016 @ 09:04 PM
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a reply to: ChesterJohn

it seems to me, a truly lost and deluded person believes in the "entire" bible as the word of God...

You rightly divide whatever you like my good Paulian friend

i'll stick with the four books

thanks...




posted on May, 23 2016 @ 09:04 PM
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a reply to: ChesterJohn

Why the hell would a supreme creator being have different gospels? Why not one message and one set of rules for all people? Did Jesus ever say there was three different gospels? Does the bible have any reference saying there would be three different gospels given? Or is that just your interpretation of the scriptures.

Believes all the word of god? But the bible was written by many men not god. Then edited and added to and taken away from. Even the first versions of your preserved word as you call it included the apocryphal books.



posted on May, 23 2016 @ 09:06 PM
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a reply to: ChesterJohn

Speaking of which... your hero Paul also said

No flesh can inherit the kingdom of heaven... So as i've said previously... Elijah died

Just like everyone else





posted on May, 23 2016 @ 09:39 PM
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a reply to: Akragon

It's called the codex Aretha or Areta codex and it is by Clement. I just downloaded a PDF let me check it out.



posted on May, 24 2016 @ 11:40 AM
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a reply to: arpgme


The desciples asked Jesus, "Why is it written that Elijah must return first?" and Jesus explained that John the Baptist is the return of Elijah so the prophecy about Elijah and then the Christ coming was fulfilled.... But if reincarnation is false and John is not Elijah as Jesus said, then the prophecy that Elijah must come first was not fulfilled. How do you explain this?

Are you referencing Matthew 17:10-12?
(10) And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come?
(11) And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things.
(12) But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.

It was prophesied by the Hebrews that Elijah would herald throughout the world at the end time the arrival of the Hamashiach Word of God. And that prophecy did come true. Elijah did come and was then taken up in the Shekinah glory of a whirlwind. But the Jews did not understand that the Messiah was Jesus and not a mortal seed of God. Elijah did come and they knew it not.

So as John introduced Jesus as the begotten of God, the Jews then wanted to know if this John was the Elijah who would Hearld the Messiah Jesus. Little did they know that their understanding had already lived and would Hearld in the Messiah Jesus at His second advent.

So the Jews went to John the Baptist and asked him -------------------
Eth Cepher
Besorah Yahuchanon or Gospel of John 1:19-23
(19) And this is the record of Yahuchanon, when the Yahudiym sent priests and Leviyiym from Yerushalayim to ask him, Who are you? (20) And he confessed, and denied not; but confessed, I am not Hamashiach. (21) And they asked him, what then? Are you Eliyahu? And he said, I am not. Are you that prophet? And he answered No. (22) Then said they unto him, Who are you? That we may give an answer to them that sent us. What say you of yourself? (23) He said, I am the voice of one crying in the wilderness, make straight the Way of Yahuah, as said the prophet Yesha’yahu


KJV bible John 1:19-23
(19) And this is the record of John, when the Jews sent priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him, Who art thou? (20) And he confessed, and denied not; but confessed, I am not the Christ. (21) And they asked him, What then? Art thou Elias? And he saith, I am not. Art thou that prophet? And he answered, No. (22) Then said they unto him, Who art thou? that we may give an answer to them that sent us. What sayest thou of thyself? (23) He said, I am the voice of one crying in the wilderness, Make straight the way of the Lord, as said the prophet Esaias.

The entire problem is that the Jews refused to accept two advents of the same personage. They could not fathom the preexistence of anyone as a human. Reincarnation was not of the Sadducees belief and the Sadducees controlled the temple authority. The Sadducees did not accept an afterlife or anything pertaining to a mortal existing after death. So reincarnation was forbidden to their way of belief.

Their understanding of a Messiah was strictly terrestrial and a one time occurrence. They were expecting a Messiah as a mortal man who would restore the world to its original state of perfection and that Jerusalem would be the central government of the world. Their Hamashiach would be the seed of David restored as king of a one world government. The king would reign a long life and his seed would then do the same. This would continue till the end of this creation. They could not accept a god that had a son. To them it was blasphemy to even suggest that EL could have another extension.

John the Baptist ushered in the doctrine of Jesus. Jesus preexisted in the heavenly realm as the Begotten Word of God. He then shed his celestial image and visited this world as the man Jesus. He would die as a man and return in His original state as The Word of God. He was introduced by John the first time as Jesus while the second time will be by Elias as the Word of God.



posted on May, 24 2016 @ 03:06 PM
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a reply to: Seede

Actually, that passage was added by new testament writers to explain away the unfulfilled Elijah prophecy.

Either that or John the Baptist literally was Elijah. Jews understand prophecy just fine and the whole Christ saviour myth just didn't fit Judaism.

A true Messiah doesn't call himself the Messiah. He gets anointed the Messiah and other people call him that.

Calling yourself the Messiah is the least humble thing a person could do.



posted on May, 24 2016 @ 03:15 PM
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originally posted by: ChesterJohn
a reply to: Akragon

And you will remain in that thinking until you rightly divide the NT by the gospels(not the four books) the gospel of the kingdom, the gospel of the Grace of God and the everlasting gospel.

Until then you will always wrongly join and dismiss the scriptures.

One thing I have come to know is this a truly saved person believes ALL the word of God.


Yeah in all my years of studying Christianity and cults you are the only person I have ever heard say that the New Testament is to be divided.

If that was the case they would be different books. The Bible is a universal collection of scripture equally applicable to all Christians.

Dividing the gospel is not a thing the whole point of the NT is to make ONE universal doctrine.

The only Kingdom is the Kingdom of God. The gospel of grace is a man made doctrine.

So basically you are admitting you don't follow Christ so you aren't a Christian. You follow the teachings of a man instead of God.

But I guess it isn't a crime to make up your own religion so have fun with your cult that you're in.



posted on May, 24 2016 @ 09:48 PM
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a reply to: Parazurvan


Actually, that passage was added by new testament writers to explain away the unfulfilled Elijah prophecy. Either that or John the Baptist literally was Elijah. Jews understand prophecy just fine and the whole Christ saviour myth just didn't fit Judaism. A true Messiah doesn't call himself the Messiah. He gets anointed the Messiah and other people call him that. Calling yourself the Messiah is the least humble thing a person could do.

And you are serious? I don't think you understand what you think you understand. Once more- The Sadducee's were the Rabbinic National Judaic Structure and they did not believe in any sort of afterlife or any celestial creation. Reincarnation was a foreign concept to them and not an authorized rabbinical concept. The ones who did believe in reincarnation were considered the crazies of the other three or four remaining sects. The Sadducee's controlled both the Sanhedrin and the Temple.

Jesus revealed his being the messiah on the mount of transfiguration and ordered those who were with Him to not reveal this till He was dead. He also revealed to Peter through the Holy Spirit that He was the Christ and upon that revelation His church would be built.



posted on May, 24 2016 @ 10:12 PM
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a reply to: Parazurvan



Yeah in all my years of studying Christianity and cults you are the only person I have ever heard say that the New Testament is to be divided. If that was the case they would be different books. The Bible is a universal collection of scripture equally applicable to all Christians. Dividing the gospel is not a thing the whole point of the NT is to make ONE universal doctrine. The only Kingdom is the Kingdom of God. The gospel of grace is a man made doctrine. So basically you are admitting you don't follow Christ so you aren't a Christian. You follow the teachings of a man instead of God. But I guess it isn't a crime to make up your own religion so have fun with your cult that you're in.

Chester John is absolutely correct and once again you are very wrong. The NT is a transformation from rabbinical doctrine to that of Jesus' doctrine. The NT is loaded with rabbinical belief and must be rightly divided to believe in the Christ Jesus. You must remember that all of the NT authors were born and raised in the National Rabbinical doctrines and the process of learning the doctrine of the Christ Jesus went on till their deaths. John's Revelation was not even understood till all had died except John. In fact even today we do not understand the complete doctrine of Jesus.

There are two distinct Kingdoms. The kingdom of God is that which is within one who is worthy. It is a spiritual awakening. The kingdom of heaven is the New Jerusalem with a new heaven and new earth and is a celestial place. They are both needed for salvation.



posted on May, 24 2016 @ 10:55 PM
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a reply to: Seede




The ones who did believe in reincarnation were considered the crazies of the other three or four remaining sects.


Really? The Pharisees were considered "crazies"?



posted on May, 25 2016 @ 08:23 AM
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a reply to: windword

I have a hard time believing that the Sadducees were a real sect that sprung up after the Maccabean wars and get no mention in any of the dead sea scrolls, a sect that fully believed in the ressurection and had a list of enemies some being Israelites not in their sect and sub sects. If anything the people who were in that sect were insane. Racist too.

The Pharisees I believe existed because they were always in the favor of the Monarchs until their tactics of manipulation would be realized by the Governments and they got expelled. A recurring theme throughout history that always regroups from any tragedy. And in the Scrolls they are they darlings of Queen Salome. They are definitely not crazy, rather, brilliant tactitions.
edit on 25-5-2016 by Parazurvan because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 25 2016 @ 08:39 AM
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a reply to: Seede

I don't think either of you are really within the theology of any Biblical Christian churches but I don't care what you do with your bibles.

I will agree that two separate religions exist in the New Testament, that of Paul and that of The James and the 12 Apostles chosen and taught by the Messiah.

My belief is that for the sake of testing a mans loyalty to the teachings of the Messianic Apostolic Church and those who can't figure out that Paul is the false prophet who deserve to be misled and will forever remain so, the story of Paul remains a part of the Bible.

On the other hand for the few who understand it is clearly laid out. We are the disciples of he who was, is and will be the Messiah and indulge in knowledge and Wisdom having the Spirit to discern and interpret.

We are comfortable letting you remain deceived and confused because you refuse to learn any and all true things anyway.
edit on 25-5-2016 by Parazurvan because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 25 2016 @ 10:40 AM
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a reply to: Parazurvan


On the other hand for the few who understand it is clearly laid out. We are the disciples of he who was, is and will be the Messiah and indulge in knowledge and Wisdom having the Spirit to discern and interpret. We are comfortable letting you remain deceived and confused because you refuse to learn any and all true things anyway.

You are quite mistaken in the assumption that you know more than the Holy Spirit. Jesus made it very clear that the Holy Spirit would teach what is of God and what is not of God. That knowledge is for all people and not for a few. You are also mistaken in your assumption that the ability to discern and interpret that which is of God is by your own ability. Those are gifts of the Holy Spirit to protect and strengthen His church.

1st Corinthians 12: 1-13
(1) Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant.
(2) Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led.
(3) Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.
(4) Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
(5) And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.
(6) And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.
(7) But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
(8) For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
(9) To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
(10) To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
(11) But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.
(12)For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.
(13) For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

It would do you well to study and and become aware that you are to share your gifts if your your gifts are from the Creator. Not to be comfortable in seeing others live in darkness. Your fruit is from the wrong tree and your pride is not from the Creator.

Now in your hatred of the beloved Saul/Paul you are once again in a corrupt state of mind and you seem to have much difficulty in understanding what is written, Saul/Paul is written in eight separate MSS of various NT authors and is reported as to have been loved as a brother in Christ Jesus. And repoted by Jesus also. You seem to have a problem with a great share of the entire bible. Do you understand that you suggest removal of the seven MSS of Paul from the bible? Then you must remove or edit the ten MSS authors of the ones who spoke well of Paul. That alone would leave you with about ten MSS instead of twenty seven MSS in cannon. Are you implying that your wisdom is this foolishness? That is not even reality.

Luke and Acts - 129 verses found - 132 matches
1 Corinthians - 7 verses found - 8 matches
2 Corinthians - 2 verses found - 2 matches
Ephesians - 2 verses found - 2 matches
Philippians - 1 verse found - 1 match
Colossians - 3 verses found - 3 matches
Philemon - 3 verses found- 3 matches
1st and 2nd Peter - 1 verse found - 1 match

Can you explain what your problem is with the Apostle Paul by giving theological references instead of the usual parroting with nothing but a rant? Simply list them one at a time so that we might discuss them one at a time and with sources.



posted on May, 25 2016 @ 02:39 PM
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originally posted by: Seede
a reply to: Parazurvan


On the other hand for the few who understand it is clearly laid out. We are the disciples of he who was, is and will be the Messiah and indulge in knowledge and Wisdom having the Spirit to discern and interpret. We are comfortable letting you remain deceived and confused because you refuse to learn any and all true things anyway.

You are quite mistaken in the assumption that you know more than the Holy Spirit. Jesus made it very clear that the Holy Spirit would teach what is of God and what is not of God. That knowledge is for all people and not for a few. You are also mistaken in your assumption that the ability to discern and interpret that which is of God is by your own ability. Those are gifts of the Holy Spirit to protect and strengthen His church.

1st Corinthians 12: 1-13
(1) Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant.
(2) Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led.
(3) Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.
(4) Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
(5) And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.
(6) And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.
(7) But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
(8) For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
(9) To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
(10) To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
(11) But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.
(12)For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.
(13) For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

It would do you well to study and and become aware that you are to share your gifts if your your gifts are from the Creator. Not to be comfortable in seeing others live in darkness. Your fruit is from the wrong tree and your pride is not from the Creator.

Now in your hatred of the beloved Saul/Paul you are once again in a corrupt state of mind and you seem to have much difficulty in understanding what is written, Saul/Paul is written in eight separate MSS of various NT authors and is reported as to have been loved as a brother in Christ Jesus. And repoted by Jesus also. You seem to have a problem with a great share of the entire bible. Do you understand that you suggest removal of the seven MSS of Paul from the bible? Then you must remove or edit the ten MSS authors of the ones who spoke well of Paul. That alone would leave you with about ten MSS instead of twenty seven MSS in cannon. Are you implying that your wisdom is this foolishness? That is not even reality.

Luke and Acts - 129 verses found - 132 matches
1 Corinthians - 7 verses found - 8 matches
2 Corinthians - 2 verses found - 2 matches
Ephesians - 2 verses found - 2 matches
Philippians - 1 verse found - 1 match
Colossians - 3 verses found - 3 matches
Philemon - 3 verses found- 3 matches
1st and 2nd Peter - 1 verse found - 1 match

Can you explain what your problem is with the Apostle Paul by giving theological references instead of the usual parroting with nothing but a rant? Simply list them one at a time so that we might discuss them one at a time and with sources.


For you to say that I am mistaken you would have to know everything that I know. And you don't.

You have your beliefs and I have mine. But I am far from mistaken.



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