Will An International Peace Keeping Force in Israel Help??????

If I wanted to hear about who is right or who is wrong in this matter than I would have asked that. Thanks a lot for turning this discussion into the blame game. I swear you can't mention this issue ANY WHERE without hearing a bias on the issue. I don't care to hear about who you think is right or wrong. This topic is about a peace keeping force, not about who is peaceful or who is not. Please stay on the topic.

Leveller, you mentioned that this arguement was invalid yet you went full blast right into it. You should just ignore the ignorants who say stupid things like the UN is an enemy of Israel and who preach about the use of nukes. That isn't the issue and you know it. Still you played their game. Don't fo that. You know better than that. I know you are more capable of sense than others here so that is why I am pointing you out. Not to mention you took notice to the side tracking of these posters and you harped on them about it, only to end up doing the same thing as they did. Please next time just ignore them and take the conversation where you know it should be going. Thank you.

Anyway, back to the subject at hand. Just to let you ignorants know the subject is a peacekeeping force. Here goes my opinion:

First of all Israel is not a democracy. I can't stand people who say that. Israel shouldn't even be allowed to have a say in these matters. What matters???

The matter of an buffer zone in place by foreign occupation troops, or the UN. I think everyone knows that Israel is a criminal state. Any state that was formed during war is criminal. Most states are criminal, but Israel is criminal in many, many, ways. So I think that the UN has the authority to do whatever it wants in Israel/Palestine. Leveller says that this situation is the fault of the US. That isn't true. It is the fault of the British, the Jews, and the Arabs. Americans have nothing to do with this fight.

When the UN takes these facts into perspective they should realize that the whole situation there is not just. All the terms and conditions that were formed are completely invalid. Why???

Because there never was peace in Israel. Every time a term or condition was set the terms and conditions were broken by the violence. Because of this I think that the world has the right to beat both these people into submission. Why should they???

Well why shouldn't they???

They did it in Bosnia and Croatia. So why not here????

They did it in Somalia, so why not here???

As for if it will work well, no it won't. The Arab extremists don't care who dies. As long as it makes the news. Hamas and Islamic Jihad especially. Those two groups would kill angels sent down from heaven if they had to. So no bluehats are going to be any different. This situation is basically impossible to solve. The only way peace will ever happen is if these two entities learn to love one another. Right now that is far from reality. No buffer zone could ever work because it wouldn't be a buffer so as long as the so-called buffer was getting attacked.

Look at what happened in Somalia. You had people from all over gathering to fight people from all over. It wasn't just Al-Quida, it was the Saudis, the Iraqis, the Sudanese, and even the Persians. They all had an agreement on one issue. Hatred of America. The UN=America in their eyes. So it will be no different in Israel. Personally I think that an international peace keeping force is a bad idea. It will only cause an even more dire situation than we already have there in Israel/Palestine.

(That is just one man's opinion, nothing to take seriously)



Abraham

Originally posted by KrazyIvan
if the UN or NATO fights isreal it will only win because of sheer numbers. The IAF is compbrable to the Luftwaffe or the USAF. isreal would be a fight make no mistake. not to mention the IDF is also very skilled. Hell the IDF can probally take over the middle east, save saudi arabia, if it wanted to.

Why would you not explain to me why did Israel almost loose the kipur war against Egypt and Syria if they are so strong ? The armies of these two countrys will never worth the army on an western one, but they almost win any way.

[Edited on 24-6-2003 by Salem]

Originally posted by Abraham Virtue

Leveller says that this situation is the fault of the US. That isn't true. It is the fault of the British, the Jews, and the Arabs. Americans have nothing to do with this fight.

Sorry dude. Totally untrue.
Just ask any Arab.

I would guess that you are blaming the UK because we allowed the Jews to create Israel.
Unfortunately the UK couldn't stop them. We weren't powerful enough after fighting WW2.


The creation of the nation state of Israel was funded by the US dollar. And it still is today.

The US needed a white nuclear ally in the region to guard the oil fields during the Cold War and to create confusion amongst the Arabs.
If Middle East oil had fallen into the hands of the Soviets, we would all be writing on this forum in Russian by now.

And now I will return to the subject.

For those of you worried about the UN fighting against Israel - go take a look at www.un.org...

You will find that the UN can only deploy it's peacekeeping force at the request of the nation within whose borders they will be operating.
In this situation both the Palestinians and the Israelis will have to agree to a UN peacekeeping presence.

Once again, this is about the peace keeping force. Not about who is right or who is wrong. We can go that way if you really want to but I would rather see that on a different topic, not on mine. If you want to start a blame game topic on this issue that go ahead be my guest, but please don't do it here.


Tell me your opinion on the peace keeping force. Can you supply that???

I know you can. You are a smart guy. I know you have an opinion on that.



(By the way, if you start a topic on who is to blame I will be there to contribute.)


Abraham

LOL. You must have written that just as I posted back on topic.

But if you want my true opinion?

If the UN goes in, Hamas is screwed. Based on the fact that the UN Security Council is contains Israel's closest allies, I would say that there is a strong possibility of favour towards the Israelis. Wether it will be blatant enough to see is another question.
Politically the Israelis may make noise but I believe that this will be to confuse public opinion over the role of the UN and to sell the process to the populations of Palestine and Israel.

I believe that any opposition to the UN will eventually come from the Palestinians when they recognise that there will be peace - but not on their terms.

Yeah I guess we did post those at the same time.

Now I wish I would have waited. My post was a little anal. Sorry.

Thank you for giving me your views on this.

My only concern is the one statement you made about Hamas. Why is it that you think Hamas would be screwed???

Isn't the UN supposed to just act as a buffer and keep the peace???

From what I have learned, or seen the UN just stands around and watches people die. If they are attacked or if their positions are attacked then they can fight back, but as far as I know they can't start a gun battle, no matter the circumstances. Am I right or am I wrong???

Could you enlighten me???

(By the way, I haven't looked into that site you posted above. I will do so now. Maybe the answers are in there.)


Abe

Based on what I have seen in the site you posted it says that force can be used against those that threaten peace by the peace keeping force only if it is approved by the Security Council. So Leveller, do you think such force will be approved in Israel against Hamas and other radical groups????

If you ask me, it will. So as long as those groups continue to murder as they have been for the last few decades.

Opinions anyone????

The reason I see Hamas as screwed if the UN gets involved is this: Public Opinion.

The UN is seen as neutral by the vast majority of people throughout the world. UN "attitude" over Iraq has confirmed and resolved this opinion.
Hamas will have to tread very lightly around the UN. One mistake and they will be pounced on. Opening fire on a neutral organisation will destroy their cause, their credibility and any sympathy that people have for them in the West.

Nobody will care. Our public opinion will look upon Hamas as an enemy which can legally be destroyed.
Militarily it will be open season on them.


Public opinion in the West is very, very powerful. Without public opinion on their side, governments have their hands tied as you have just witnessed in Iraq.
Sure you could say that the West went into Iraq anyway but with on side public opinion don't you think they would have invaded Syria and Iran too?

A partial part of Phase 2 of the roadmap has already taken place:

"Phase 2: (June-Dec 2003) Creation of an independent Palestinian state; international conference and international monitoring of compliance with roadmap."

US monitors have already been sent in. For monitors read "reconnaisance team". It's only a matter of time before the UN goes in.

The UN takes with it our interpretation of neutrality. Those who stand in it's way will not be dealt with gently.

Originally posted by CoLD aNGeR

2.Then u should look again, and please do not victimize the jews like lambs, because then u again are in the side of the jews, and not showing understanding for the otherside, specially u UP, that i supose u studied here in europe history, u know what happened to jews in medieval age in EVERY SINGLE country in europe, if not take a book and start reading about your dear jews in the medieval age , even till 1800...

3.Well that happens not just in arabia, but in america if i go now and i am against bush or against the system i get the same, and even better, do u think the people that lives like that enjoys it?
And do u know that israel know has a policy that normally the people would agree with sharon because of the suicide bombs, so we got that almost everyone agrees with Sharon, and who don�t, is the people that is not agreeing with the goverment, who is listening to them? Nobody...
www.jewsagainsttheoccupation.org...

4. a) Your inconditional support to a massacre like the one sharon is doing means that you wouldn�t mind to nuke those "arabs bads neighbour" or "islamist terrorits", shows once again that u UP, are not seeing the problem in a objective way but in a subjective way...

b) Do u recognize the power of the jews in the world?
Because if u see them as lambs being attacked from the begining of the time in every single country, and that they have been treated really bad, u should revise A LOT OF HISTORY TO SEE WHAT THEY HAVE DONE AS WELL...

2) Yes, I've learned history and I know what happened to the jews in the medieval era. But " my dear jews " ? If this comment is NOT anti-jews, then, I wonder what this comment is ? If I was telling you " your dear Arabs ", the whole website could be able to hear you shouting as a wounded beast. And it's me who's biased.....gee....

3) You are just saying that Sharon is behind these terrorist attacks. Like this, he can have all the public support that he want. I see where you go. GWB Jr is supposed to use the same tactics with the american public, and it's normal, since Sharon and GWB Jr are on the same political line and are very closed allied.

Don't get me wrong, I don't say you right. I just say that I see what you mean.

4a) I don't support ANY massacre as I don't support terrorism. Also, I don't want to nuke any nation, area, race, mainland, peoples and so on....
But I suppose you don't believe me.

4b) Ok CA. What did they do who's so horrible to your eyes ? They have survived to the nazis and the Shoa ? That's it ?

[Edited on 24-6-2003 by ultra_phoenix]

Originally posted by Salem
It only depends of the proof US is providing to invade a country.

They gave up. They pulled a France! if they knew that we didnt have that good of evidence why didnt they stop us. they should of fought it out kicking and screaming. if they wanted to stop us they shoulda put un troops at the Iraqi broder and said "Shoot any one that tries to cross" that woulda stopped the US. talk is cheap. if you want something done the way you want it to be done use force: its that simple

You say that public opinion would become a factor and because of that Hamas would have to steer their activites to a limit that public opinion could handle. Well, I disagree. I don't know anyone in the Western World who thinks that Hamas is right. Here in America we call the people who agree with Hamas terrorist supporters. What about in 'Great' Britian????

What do you call them there????

Basically I think that if the UN goes into Israel/Palestine it will be the UN who will be screwed not Hamas. Remember Somalia???

Hamas doesn't care about Western opinion. In their eyes Israel and the Likud party is Western anyway, and those are their most hated enemies. So what makes you think that they are going to slack up for the UN????

Like I said earlier, the UN=America. Yeah I know that Hamas has vowed to keep America out of the fight. But they have also vowed to destroy Israel. So if any Americans get in the way then they will die with the rest of them. It isn't like Hamas does head counts on the buses and nightclubs they target before a bombing to make sure they are killing just Israelis. They have killed Americans, British, innocent women and children. You name it. They don't give a crap about public opinion. Think about this:

Hamas targets it's own people. They kill Palestinians for talking to Israelis. They chop off the heads of call girls and drug dealers, with no remorse, on the spot. They are strict in their enforcement policy. They don't have much time for talks at the table or political red tape.

What are your thoughts on that?


Abraham

Originally posted by Salem

Originally posted by KrazyIvan
if the UN or NATO fights isreal it will only win because of sheer numbers. The IAF is compbrable to the Luftwaffe or the USAF. isreal would be a fight make no mistake. not to mention the IDF is also very skilled. Hell the IDF can probally take over the middle east, save saudi arabia, if it wanted to.

Why would you not explain to me why did Israel almost loose the kipur war against Egypt and Syria if they are so strong ? The armies of these two countrys will never worth the army on an western one, but they almost win any way.

[Edited on 24-6-2003 by Salem]

Because the IDF and IAF have western technology and the men that use that western Technology are trainded by westen soilders. thats why. western armies would be fighting their own stuff.

Originally posted by KrazyIvan
Because the IDF and IAF have western technology and the men that use that western Technology are trainded by westen soilders. thats why. western armies would be fighting their own stuff.

Totally wrong, western technologies are created to fight any other conventionnal tech like soviet technologies, and Syria and Egypt was using soviet tanks, soviet weapons and soviet shoulder anti-air missiles etc...


[Edited on 25-6-2003 by Salem]

[Edited on 25-6-2003 by Salem]

Originally posted by Abraham Virtue
You say that public opinion would become a factor and because of that Hamas would have to steer their activites to a limit that public opinion could handle. Well, I disagree. I don't know anyone in the Western World who thinks that Hamas is right. Here in America we call the people who agree with Hamas terrorist supporters. What about in 'Great' Britian????

The vast majority of our people here see Hamas as a terrorist organisation. We have fought terrorism for years. But it all comes down to how you define a terrorist at the end of the day.

We view terrorists as "people" until they step over the line. Whilst they are behind that line we protect them from ourselves. Once they cross it, we may take measures that we know are morally wrong but we may see no other option. We see may ourselves as being forced to take drastic action and because it wasn't through "choice" we won't blame ourselves.

Eventually we may get to the stage where Hamas terrorists stop counting as human beings and we will accept any means of destroying their organization. We certainly have that power in my opinion.

Basically I think that if the UN goes into Israel/Palestine it will be the UN who will be screwed not Hamas. Remember Somalia???

I don't see this happening for a number of reasons. But the main one is that the West seems to want peace. We will give the UN power to go along with their authority.
Unfortunately, we didn't care about Somalia. It was always just a token gesture.

Hamas doesn't care about Western opinion. In their eyes Israel and the Likud party is Western anyway, and those are their most hated enemies. So what makes you think that they are going to slack up for the UN????

I believe that they do care about our opinion. In fact our opinion is their most important weapon and their most important target. It can also be their worse enemy.

Terrorism is physical propaganda. It's all about changing opinion through fear.

Once Hamas realises that we don't care if they bomb the Israelis, kill the UN, create unrest or bother about any of their other aims or methods, but we WILL have peace at ANY cost to them if they don't behave, there is a strong possibility that they will recognise fighting UN forces will only weaken their hand.

Like I said earlier, the UN=America. Yeah I know that Hamas has vowed to keep America out of the fight. But they have also vowed to destroy Israel. So if any Americans get in the way then they will die with the rest of them. It isn't like Hamas does head counts on the buses and nightclubs they target before a bombing to make sure they are killing just Israelis. They have killed Americans, British, innocent women and children. You name it. They don't give a crap about public opinion.

If they were only killing soldiers nobody would care.
Again, they are actually manipulating opinion. They are creating confusion and fear.

Hamas targets it's own people. They kill Palestinians for talking to Israelis. They chop off the heads of call girls and drug dealers, with no remorse, on the spot. They are strict in their enforcement policy. They don't have much time for talks at the table or political red tape.

Same again. Creating opinion.


The Israelis are creating opinion by attacking Hamas with missiles seemingly every other day.

Public opinion is everything.
Not only ours in the West, but also that of the Palestinians' and the Israeli's. Hamas' immediate survival depends on goodwill.

I believe Hamas will look for peace. They don't have much hope otherwise. Every day the Israelis are hitting them physically and psychologically and getting away with it. Hamas is having a tough time of it right now. If the UN gets involved it's only going to be another headache for them.

news.bbc.co.uk...


Events are slowly pushing Hamas and others to a ceasefire.
Whether the Israelis will just see this as a temporary halt to allow the extremists to regroup will depend how Arafat presents the ceasefire statement.
You can guarantee that if it is only a move to stall for time, the IDF will continue with it's missile attacks.

I'm pretty sure that Arafat will try to release the ceasefire statement before Abu Mazen.
It will keep him in the game.

I wouldn't be suprised if the ceasefire takes a couple of weeks longer to put in place. It looks to me like the Israelis are targetting those who they see as being a threat at a later date.
They are cleaning house before peace is made.

I have often thought that it would be impossible for the UN to keep the peace in Israel and the occupied territories. The UN is too decentralized, too western, and too wimpy.

I have often thought that what may be ultimately needed for peace is thus: a single, semi-powerful nation will decide to bear the burden of enforcing peace between the Arabs and the Jews. But what nation?

The nation in question would ideally posses the following qualifications:

1. A modern, proficient, and professional military
2. An economy that can handle the tremendous cost (hopefully offset by other nations)
3. People who do not worship the Islamic or Judeo/Christian diety
4. Little or no economic interest in Israel or the surrounding nations
5. A single-minded will to see this task out to the very end

After thinking about what nations could qualify, I kept coming back to one - Japan. What if they, under a UN mandate and with the approval of the Palestinians and Israelis, moved into the occupied territories in force and "imposed order?"

It seems to me that both sides could use a little dose of Bushido and Samurai justice. That would settle them down quickly......

No way. It just won't happen.


The UN peacekeepers have to be multi national.

No country will take the risk of deploying it's troops only for their society to become a target for extremists at a later date.

I would expect the makeup of the force to contain some of the smaller European nations backed by moderate Arab countries as the acceptable face of the UN.

You mean the same small European countries and Arab nations that have been trying to exterminate the Jews for the last 300 years?

Sorry, I just couldn't resist....

Originally posted by Pyros
You mean the same small European countries and Arab nations that have been trying to exterminate the Jews for the last 300 years?

If that is your view of them, why not?
What better way to show a neutral face?


The countries I see taking part are any 4 to a dozen of the following:

From Europe

Belgium
Bulgaria
Czech Republic
Denmark
Estonia
Finland
Greece
Hungary
Norway
Poland
Romania
Slovakia
Sweden



From the Middle East.

Kuwait
Morocco
Oman
Qatar
Possibly Jordan

Others.

Australia
Canada
India
Mexico
New Zealand
South Africa

I would imagine this force to be backed logistically, intelligence-wise and financially by the West.

Most are pretty neutral in one or other of the warring parties' eyes. The Arab countries will have to take part, as I see the UN force working physically closer to the Palestinians than the Israelis.

US monitors are already in Israel but I believe they will not be a major part of a peace keeping force.