Noahic Curse: "Japheth dwells in the tents of Shem"

Very enjoyable read. I don't have much to add, at least at the moment. But the quality of your writing made for a pleasant read.

a reply to: the2ofusr1

Thank you for the information and kind words! The book seems to present an interesting proposal.

There are several published books and articles that directly compare the Samaritan Pentateuch against the Masoretic, Septuagint, and Vulgate texts, however, I can not offer a hand in recommending any specific works, my apologies.

I did find an article from our friend, Michael Heiser, in which he cites the Samaritan Pentateuch to substantiate the plurality of his interpretation of DEUTERONOMY 32:8 AND THE SONS OF GOD

a reply to: Galadriel

Thank you very much!



a reply to: bigfatfurrytexan

I truly appreciate your compliments and interest in the thread.



a reply to: Lazarus Short

I like your sig. It was not too long ago that I first became aware of such ideas through a former ATS member posting about the Paleo-Hebrew script and the meanings of each letter and root word. Very fascinating concept!



a reply to: SargonThrall

Thank you for taking the time to reply.

Moses was rather wise and charismatic, best illustrated by his ability to unify a people under one patriarch and one God. He sure did fulfill that twofold aim that you mentioned,... the rebellious generation perished, while the next generation became battle-hardened. It was a strategy that led to the conquest of the Land of Canaan.

There is indeed a great air of authority and influence that comes with claiming elite or divine ancestry. Rulers of old used to claim descent from the Sun, planets, gods, dragons, and symbolic animals. Hitler used the concept to rally his people under the banner of Arianism. We can still see hints of this concept today in regards to the way in which the children and family of royalty, politicians, and celebrities are distinguished.

There have been several theories throughout the years suggesting a link between the Hebrew-Israelites with the Habiru, Shasu, and/or Hyksos. If there is no factual relation, at least we can acknowledge the similarities between these groups as compared to the Biblical narrative spanning the eras of Jacob through Joshua.

The Samaritans occupy a fascinating position in both history and religion. They managed to escape the Assyrian and Babylonian exiles, while further claiming that their Torah and Samaritanism represents a more pure and direct adherence to the original Hebrew-Israelite religion and culture, as compared to Babylonian influenced Judaism.

Typo in the op: "Yuya"

¡ (Egyptologist and author, Ahmed Osman, has theorized that Joseph may be the Egyptian courtier Yuya (Yu-Sef of Yahweh). !

(“Funerary Mask of Yuya” in the Cairo Museum)

a reply to: Sahabi

From chapter 4 of Martins book

In the three centuries before Constantine, both mainline Christian authorities and those of Rabbinic Judaism equally and unitedly (in this case) condemned the people who were establishing synagogues or churches showing mixed pagan beliefs with biblical themes and with making pagan designs on various funerary artifacts found over the Roman world. As we will come to see, it is the Christian authorities who say more about such people because they were more of a menace to Christian teaching than to Rabbinic Judaism (just why will be explained later). And while Professor Goodenough did not see what he thought might be classified as "Christian" art in the artifacts he catalogued (except at the small church in Dura Europos), he surmised that all the specimens that he recorded were probably "Jewish." He was actually wrong in his identification of the peoples who originated such things. His early training caused him to misjudge the evidence. Goodenough started his academic career by concentrating on the teachings of Philo the Alexandrian Jew who lived in the time of Christ. He reasoned that Philo gave the impetus for later Jews to adopt Hellenistic ways (that is, to use Greco-Roman pagan ideas in their everyday religious beliefs and practices). Goodenough surmised that the majority of Jews after C.E. 70 blended their interpretation of Scripture with pagan motifs into their religious services and into their daily way of living. But Goodenough (as brilliant as he was and deserving great praise for his work) was wrong in his identification. It wasn’t Philo who lived at the time of Jesus who gave the incentive for all of the paganistic artifacts in some of the synagogues and burial grounds found around the Mediterranean basin. The blame goes to another person who also lived at the time of Jesus, and, incidentally, who was a contemporary of Philo. That man is singled out in the New Testament as the originator of the first heresy to afflict the Christian community. Just who was this person? According to all early Christian authorities the person who started the mischief was a man whose people consistently honored and adored the symbols of the Tabernacle of Moses (the Menorah, the Torah shrine, etc.) while regularly mixing these scriptural themes with pagan ideas and theologies. That man, according to all early Christian scholars before the time of Constantine was a Samaritan by the name of Simon Magus. If Goodenough would have substituted all his references to Philo with the name "Simon Magus" as the originator of this so-called paganistic "Judaism" from the first to the sixth centuries, he would have provided the key that would have identified the people who manufactured much of those pagan artifacts. Those people are indeed The People That History Forgot. And who are they? They are principally the Samaritans ― especially those who followed one of their own countrymen called Simon Magus and his successors into the theological teaching called “Gnosticism.” There were countless people in the Roman world who got caught up into the heretical movement of Gnosticism which flourished from the second to the fourth centuries of our era. Indeed, they composed a voluminous amount of literature to back up their various teachings and they were influential in many parts of the Roman world. The Importance of the Samaritans All the mainline (or "orthodox") Christian authorities for the first four centuries claim that the major heresy that afflicted the whole world with error started with the activities of the man called Simon Magus, a Samaritan.

www.askelm.com...

a reply to: the2ofusr1

From chapter 13 we read this from Martins book .

When the Jews were rebuilding the Temple after the Babylonian captivity, the peoples of Samaria came to the Jews and said, "Let us build with you: for we seek your God, as you do; and we do sacrifice unto him since the days of Esar-haddon king of Assyria, which brought us up hither." Ezra 4:2 The Jews declined this Samaritan petition because they were mixing pagan religious practices with their worship of YHVH. This rejection infuriated the Samaritans. They resolved to thwart any attempt to rebuild the Temple if they could not have a part in its construction. Thereupon, they wrote a letter to the king of Persia asking him to put a stop to the building. The contents of this letter are interesting because its contents reveal a lot more about the origin of the Samaritans (and their brother tribes) and about where they came to reside in Palestine and Syria. The record of this letter in the Bible affords the historian a major key regarding the distribution of Babylonians west of the Euphrates. Let us notice what these Samaritans and their allies said of themselves. "Then wrote Rehum the chancellor, and Shimshai the scribe, and the rest of their companions; the Dinaites, the Apharsathchites, the Tarpelites, the Apharsites, the Archevites, the Babylonians, the Susanchites, the Dehavites, and the Elamites, and the rest of the nations whom the great and noble Asnapper [Asshur-banipal] brought over, and set in the cities of Samaria, and the rest [of the cities] that are on this side the river [in the cities west of the Euphrates], and at such a time." Ezra 4:9–10 Let us notice that all the tribes mentioned in this letter (ten groups of people altogether) were from eastern areas. Almost all were from Mesopotamia and Persia. And more importantly, note that these nations were settled not only in the cities of Samaria, but also in the rest of the cities on the west side of the Euphrates River. As far as the Persian government was concerned (which flourished at the time this letter was written), this whole region was called "Syria." Note what Bevan stated about the phrase "on this side the river." "This was the ordinary designation of Syria in the official language of the old Persian Empire."

www.askelm.com...

a reply to: the2ofusr1

Very interesting read! Thanks for the material

Samaritans, "The Pharisaic and Rabbinical Jews are Babylonian imposters!"

Pharisees and Rabbanic Jews, "The Samaritans are Assyrian imposters!"

Seems quite the debate, huh? According to genetic studies, the Samaritans and the different ethnicities of Jews all share a common ancestral descent, which appears to diverge as a result of the Babylonian and Assyrian conquests of greater-Israel.

I don't know whose religion is more authentic (Samaritanism versus Judaism), however, Samaritan culture 'appears' to be more original to the Levant than Ashkenazi and Sephardi culture. For example, Judaism adopted the Babylonian inspired "Jewish" Calendar, the Talmud, and the Ashuri script, in addition to the European-inspired Yiddish language of the Ashkenazi and the Spanish-inspired Ladino language of the Sephardi,.... while the Samaritans retained the Paleo-Hebrew alphabet and used the Ancient Hebrew and Aramaic languages until adopting modern Palestinian Arabic and Israeli Hebrew.

As mentioned, the destruction of the "Kingdom of Israel" and the "Kingdom of Judah" marked a genetic divergence and cultural shift. It is only my opinion that the Samaritans hold the more original Torah, traditions, and culture.

I always enjoy your input and contributions to the discussions!

a reply to: Sahabi

Thanks for your kind words . Its interesting when you try to put it into a coherent way of understanding what you see as opposed to what you read in the Bible . It becomes easy to see that sharing the same scripture can result in differences in doctrine and practice . Not surprising in one sense as failing to understand the context that is removed from our time by 2 to 3 thousand years . I think the differing creeds and confessions coupled with traditions plays a big role in what we see today . It's more about a business model and a control of peoples then about God and His plan for man .

Martins book brings out the idolatry nature of some of the synagogues unearthed and shows that even in scripture that aspect was well known in NT times .His link to the Bishop in Constantinople from the Samaritan stock and the idolatry nature the eastern church took on speaks volumes .Rome seemed to be more hard core in that aspect as if you look today that is exactly what you see .

The though that the Protestant reformation win over Rome's influence was only a shift to a fifth column tactic that the Jesuits were to serve and probably still do to a certain extent .. They have a tendency of penetrating all aspects of societies and walking on both sides of the street at the same time ....

a reply to: the2ofusr1

I do not doubt that there were Assyrian-coordinated resettlements of Israel and areas of Samaria, or that outside culture influenced the area. However, if the Samaritan people as a whole represent foreign immigrants, shouldn't we expect to see a stronger departure from Paleo Hebrew, the Torah, or pre-diasporic genetics? If the Samaritans were truly associated with the incorporation of pagan elements into their religion, wouldn't we find evidence of this in the Samaritan religion? We find historic sources written about pagans, idolaters, and polytheists originating from Samaria, but we also find similar reports of such deviation throughout all the land of Israel.

Although I'm aware of academic/religious biases, Benyamim Tsedaka, in his article; Distinguishing Between Old Samaritan and Jewish Synagogues, claims that the early pagan-influenced synagogues were actually affiliated with Judaism, as opposed to Samaritanism.

"Influenced by foreign cultures, the Jews employed pagan symbols in some synagogue mosaics, for example: the Zodiac and the heads of impure animals, such as lions and tigers.

In Samaritan synagogues, even the most complicated mosaics are free of pagan symbols. Samaritan artists were careful to use only symbols mentioned in the Torah: the Tabernacle utensils, particularly the menorah (seven-branched candelabrum); the Shofar (ramshorn), trumpets, and the heads of pure birds and animals, such as doves, sheep and goats. Consequently, when viewed from ground level a Samaritan synagogue interior has a simple, modest appearance."

We have evidence of Hellenized Hebrew-Israelite religion, with Judaism blaming it on the Samaritans, while the Samaritans blame it on Judaism.

a reply to: Sahabi

Not sure on the Paleo Hebrew text but on the symbols displayed in the synagogues using the visual from the text when it clearly says not to was a big Jewish no-no .A 8 ,9 or 10 candlestick is one thing but the seven menorah or any other article from the temple was just not allowed . The northern tribes were either taken into captivity or moved to Judah where the temple was prior to the Babylon . On their return they had some neighbours wanting to help in the rebuilding but were denied . They then petitioned to have the building stopped . At the time of Pentecost all of Israel went to Jerusalem or where there to hear the Gospel that Peter spoke about Jesus .

Later you see the letter by James addressed to the twelve tribes that were spread abroad . It was those same believing Jews that Paul came in contact with when he started his ministry to take the Gospel to the Gentiles . The same Gentile nations that were named in Genesis are also mentioned in the book of act's . We see two groups in NT times that were both Jew and Gentile in one aspect but there were two types of true and false groups as well .

The one person that links the two in the false sense was Simon Magus who was a Samaritan who didn't worship in Jerusalem . The had similar texts and that is why I had asked if you knew of any work done on a comparison of the two . Not the 200 ad masoritic text but the earlier ones . I think the dead sea scrolls might fall into that for the comparison as the 200 ad text varies .

I wish I had better understanding of all of this but am just a layperson . thanks for the reply ..

ETA I found this piece " In Babylonia the synagogues were frequently situated outside the cities, in many cases at a considerable distance from them (see Ḳid. 73b; Shab. 24b; comp. Tan., ed. Buber, "Ḥayye Sarah," p. 7), this custom, apparently, being due to the fact that after the destruction of the synagogues by the Persians during the Sassanian period the Jews were forbidden to rebuild within the city limits (see Hastings, "Dict. Bible," iii. 638)" www.jewishencyclopedia.com...

a reply to: the2ofusr1

You're absolutely right! Graven images are a big no-no, so even the "pure birds and animals" that Tsedaka mentioned would be unlawful adornments in a temple of worship.

I am also a layman, an expert at nothing at all,... a simple student. In reference to your original inquiry, some fragments of the Dead Sea Scrolls corroborate the Samaritan Pentateuch's holy site of worship as Mount Gerizim instead of Judaism's Temple Mount in Jerusalem.

Thanks for the link on synagogues, it's a very informative article. I'm guessing that you cited that specific quote to illustrate religious segregation as a method to avoid Babylonian corruption? Please forgive me if I misunderstood your intentions.

The Babylonian deportation and exile of the Hebrew-Israelites occurred during 597 B.C.E. to 539 B.C.E., while the Sassanian period ranged from 224 C.E. to 651 C.E. That's over half a millennium of religious and cultural intermingling before the edict to keep synagogues outside city limits was decreed. The Sassanian period was also after the Babylonian Torah was reintroduced to Jerusalem and the Priestly reforms of the Second Temple Period were enacted.

originally posted by: JohnthePhilistine

Yeah, I know what you mean! That's why I authored this thread in "RATS" instead of "Conspiracies in Religion". It would be nice to fly this topic high and get as much critical input and discussion as possible, however, that may inadvertently open the thread up to much more trolling, derailment, and possible thread closure. I hope that you enjoyed and/or were given some new food for thought from this thread.

a reply to: Sahabi

Part of the reason I posted the link to the synagogues was it had a different reason then the reasons in the link you provided www.israelite-samaritans.com... That site seems to be more about selling books as far as I can tell . I went to a place where they had links to commentary on the 5 OT books and I wanted to check out the Det.32:8 to see what they said . ie.sons of God or sons of Israel . There were supposed to be PDF files but the links went no where . I did find a quote on the site somewhere that said there were over 3000 variances between the two but most would have been the peoples names. They offer a book to tell you but I buy few books these days and will pass on that .

a reply to: the2ofusr1

Now I see why you asked for academic works in particular. All sides of the old rivalries have produced much bias propaganda instead of a shared and common history. Thank you ever so much for the contributions and criticality constructive discussion!

a reply to: Sahabi

I want to thank you for this thread again because I think I am getting it ,and really appreciate the work you put into it .A lot of the time we are shown things we can't identify until we take it upon ourselves to find a answer to our own question .Usually its a question we haven't asked yet so it becomes more of a journey .Along the journey we pick up enough bits to form the question which is what has happened in your thread .

With that being said I want to drop a link to a podcast and to a piece on revised history on the subject matter in hope it might fall into the eyes of others that might be questioning things . tribaltheocrat.com... Who/What: Mickey Henry from Empty Tomb Books discusses Judaism, the Talmud, Michael Hoffman’s relevant research, and Jewry in general.

www.revisionisthistory.org...
one last link to another podcast I listened to over the weekend Its Micheal Heiser ..Lots of Christians interested in prophecy talk about the tribulation period (aka, the “Great Tribulation”), but they never seem to get around to asking where the idea comes from. In this episode we explore the development of the eschatological tribulation idea in Second Temple Jewish literature up to and including the time of Jesus. Surprisingly, asking what the tribulation meant in the actual New Testament era is a recent strategy of scholars – and something that never happens in popular prophecy teaching. www.nakedbiblepodcast.com...

a reply to: the2ofusr1

Oh, now you've gone done it! I'll be glued to those interviews for the remainder of the night

The content of the "revisionist history" link that you shared seems to be the basis of the recent research of Ranajit Das, Paul Wexler, Mehdi Pirooznia, and Eran Elhaik that was mentioned in the op.

My own unknown and unformulated questions actually drove the creation of this thread. I was introduced to a theory by a former Black Hebrew Israelite. This theory proposed that Ashkenazi, European, and light-complexioned Jews were "those who say they are Jews but are not." He went on about the Khazarian Theory, Ethiopian Jews, the Lemba, Bilad el-Sudan, etc., and related it to the diaspora of the "true" Hebrew Israelites who are now known as African Americans. It was in the research and fact-checking of his theory that caused me to stumble upon the many questions that led to the formulation of the theory of this thread.

I'll let you know what I think about those interviews. Thanks!

a reply to: Sahabi

I have to plead guilty of not checking all of the links and thinking much on what you put in your op . It is a lot to go through and I promise to go through it all in time . I am running down a rabbit hole that I think links to the one this thread is on .See you in the cave

a reply to: the2ofusr1

Just dropping this excellent presentation by Micheal Hoffman titled Judaism's Strange God's ....well worth the watch .

also this is a PDF to Symbolism of the Temple defiled . emptytombbooks.com...

a reply to: the2ofusr1

Holy cow! 0_0
Although I am a student of comparative religion, that last lecture by Michael Hoffman has shaken my understandings. I was aware of the influence of the Oral Law and Talmud, however, I had no idea as to the extent of which preeminence and superiority is placed on these works above and beyond the Pentateuch and Tanakh.

"Coincidentally" enough, the Semites (Samaritans & Karaites) who practice a strict observance of the Pentateuch and Tanakh as their primary authority without the influence of the Talmud or Oral Law are mostly ostracized and marginalized by mainstream Rabbinical Judaism.

Much to consider and reconsider,.....

a reply to: Sahabi

That is why I thanked you for the thread as I would not have come across Hoffmans work . It gave a new meaning to the term Mystery Babylon for me and as usual it was right in the open all along . That is why you see suck Israeli influence on the US ,Canada and many other countries . They are deeply embedded and would seem to be almost impossible to root out . When the cry that Babylon has fallen has fallen and you see that all the merchants of the world mourned then it looks like a monetary crash of world proportions . You also see the western Beast of Daniel's 4 Beast kingdoms disappear as the others are allowed to go on for a time .....