It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.

Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.

Thank you.

 

Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.

 

The States Begin to Fight Obama’s Transgender “Guidance”

page: 3
19
<< 1  2    4  5  6 >>

log in

join
share:

posted on May, 18 2016 @ 05:39 PM
link   

originally posted by: kaylaluv
a reply to: Grambler

As I said, all these things will work themselves out. No need to fear monger. All will be well.


Not sufficient! You do not get to criticize people's for having questions about this issue and criticizing Obama for making king like decrees, and then belittle people with gender issues that don't fit your agenda. You are the one that said people won't be able to just say they feel like a man/woman. Why are you posting so hard defending the rights of the transgender, but mocking the beliefs of the gender fluid?

I will just ask you straight out then. Do you feel that gender fluid people should be allowed to use whatever restroom they feel comfortable with?




posted on May, 18 2016 @ 05:51 PM
link   
Yo ?

What's wrong with transgenders using either of the restrooms we have now ?

Why do they need their own?

First off that is segregation, and discrimination.

Feel free to go against thousands of years of history with absolutely NO ONE complaining.

Until the US was created. Then after a few centuries til we roll around to 2016 and an election cycle.

Much to do about NOTHING.

What an absolute FARCE.



posted on May, 18 2016 @ 05:53 PM
link   

originally posted by: Grambler
I will just ask you straight out then. Do you feel that gender fluid people should be allowed to use whatever restroom they feel comfortable with?


This isn't about gender fluid gender variant or gender non-conforming people. It is about transgender people.



posted on May, 18 2016 @ 05:58 PM
link   
a reply to: Grambler

Yes, of course gender fluid people should be able to use whatever restroom they feel comfortable with. They will notify the school admin who they are, so they can have protection.

The previous poster was fear mongering that a cisgender boy will be allowed to fake "feeling like a girl today" to sneak a peak at the girls in the shower. That won't be allowed.



posted on May, 18 2016 @ 06:24 PM
link   
People have some really weird visualizations about who these transgender students are. Maybe this will help change that?




Not monsters.




posted on May, 18 2016 @ 06:29 PM
link   

originally posted by: Freija


This isn't about gender fluid gender variant or gender non-conforming people. It is about transgender people.


So then Obama is a bigot? Why are the gender feelings of one group worth defending, and not others? The problem is when the debate is set up by many pro trans (for lack of a better term) people that if you are against the rights of the trans to chose their own restroom you are not just disagreeing, you are in fact a bigot filled with hatred. Once that stance is taken, those people better not neglect the rights of others such as the gender fluid, because they too would then be seen as bigots.

So I will say it this way, either this issue is about how EVERYONE identifies their gender, or the people arguing this are being bigoted towards people with gender identities that do not fit their agenda.

On one hand you have people saying you should use the restroom of the sex you were born with, and on the other you have people saying people should use the restroom of the gender the identify with.

For you to say, "this is only about transgender people" belittles the gender beliefs of the gender fluid and others and is WORSE than the people saying they should use the restroom of the sex they were born, because you are intentionally singling them out.



posted on May, 18 2016 @ 06:36 PM
link   

originally posted by: kaylaluv
a reply to: Grambler

Yes, of course gender fluid people should be able to use whatever restroom they feel comfortable with. They will notify the school admin who they are, so they can have protection.

The previous poster was fear mongering that a cisgender boy will be allowed to fake "feeling like a girl today" to sneak a peak at the girls in the shower. That won't be allowed.


So if a person says they are gender fluid and tells the administrator, they are then allowed to use whatever restroom they wish. Even though a cisgender male can't in one day "fake feeling like a girl" couldn't they tell the administrator at the beginning of the year they are fluid and then come and go as they please?

And whats to stop the next logical argument, why should gender fluid or trans gender be forced to idenitfy? Cis people do not have to idenitfy, so why single out people that are not the majority? Then the next logical step is that we all are forced to idenitfy, or none of us. Maybe the government can keep a nice database of everyones gender, wouldn't that be great?



posted on May, 18 2016 @ 06:43 PM
link   

originally posted by: Freija
People have some really weird visualizations about who these transgender students are. Maybe this will help change that?




Not monsters.



These posts have nothing to do with the issue. No one cares how they look, the issue is Obama and many people with power forcing an agenda down the throats of the people.

I do have to comment though, are you saying all of those people are transgender. Some of them look to be no more than 5 years old?



posted on May, 18 2016 @ 06:51 PM
link   
a reply to: xuenchen

Only three......needs to be all fifty! Some, of course, will be right on board with his madness.

At least there are challenges!



posted on May, 18 2016 @ 07:28 PM
link   
Go piss on the grass if you have a problem.
This topic of discussion is stoopid.



posted on May, 18 2016 @ 08:14 PM
link   

originally posted by: Grambler

So if a person says they are gender fluid and tells the administrator, they are then allowed to use whatever restroom they wish. Even though a cisgender male can't in one day "fake feeling like a girl" couldn't they tell the administrator at the beginning of the year they are fluid and then come and go as they please?


Gender fluidity and non-binary gender identities are not the same as being transgender with a medical diagnosis of gender dysphoria. Maybe you don't understand that most all kids with gender dysphoria are stereotypically binary and want to fit in as normal boys and girls and those that are gender variant or non-conforming are called "transgender" because that is a broad umbrella term encompassing a wide spectrum of behaviors and identities. Transgender kids don't switch back and forth and most are deeply involved with therapists and counselors along with their parents and siblings. This is a shortcoming of current language and indeed it is PC madness that equates transgender with gender whatever.

I'm not putting anyone down for how they want to express themselves, that's everyone's right to do so and these issues are complicated and evolving. The issues of distinction between trans and GNC reminds me somewhat of the discussion about those that change gender, transgender people, and those that actually change sex, transsexual folk. People not studied or familiar with these things want to lump everyone under one queer bucket and that's not doing anybody any favors but what do you expect in this Fox News'd, Kardashian-ified and dumbed down culture?

I don't agree with a lot of what this chick says and she is intentionally being controversial, but it may give you a look at how some transgender people feel about intermediate gender identities?



And whats to stop the next logical argument, why should gender fluid or trans gender be forced to idenitfy? Cis people do not have to idenitfy, so why single out people that are not the majority?


See, that's the thing. Transgender kids don't want to be identified, singled out or excluded. Take for example a young transgender girl that may have transitioned in 1st or 2nd grade or even before starting school. Other kids don't know of her status. For the 150 or so transgender kids that are "out" or visible in the media, there are thousands living in complete stealth. Often times when a child transitions, parents will move so their kids can live privately. Watch the video with Nicole Maines and see what her family went through. So what these laws like have been passed in NC have done, is take these transgender kids that may have gone to school all their lives as normal girls and boys and send them into the bathroom matching their natal sex (kids cant get sex reassignment surgery before 18 except in rare cases). What kind of psycho-sociological damage do you think this is going to cause these kids? If you had a transgender daughter, is that what you'd want for her? Parents do everything for these kids to have a chance at a normal life which they will if outside people and politicians stop meddling.


Maybe the government can keep a nice database of everyones gender, wouldn't that be great?

Ever fill out a census form? Have a Social Security Card?

And yes, some of those kids I posted are very young and if you weren't aware of this, it only tells me you have very little factual understanding of these things. This is off topic for this thread but there are several others on transgender children so I won't go into it here with you or anyone that wants to debate it or share unfounded opinions.



posted on May, 18 2016 @ 08:31 PM
link   
There have been cross dressers as long as there has been indoor plumbing. Where did those people "go" over the decades? Why is this NOW an issue?

Quick...look over here...SQUIRREL!!! And let's discuss, ad nauseaum, where the squirrel is gonna pee.

The dollar is precarious; well soon see more Venezualas. Many more. ObamaCare is ready to collapse under its own mismanagement and cronieism.

We have a crazy man in North Korea who HAS nukes; we have cray cray types, in Iran, who we (the US) are practically GIVING nukes. And ISIS is practicing genocide of Christians across the Middle East. Our borders are flooded; unemployment; suicides and drug use are at all time highs. AND where Joe/Joanne pees is what concerns Obama?

Smoke and mirrors. Wag the Dog...and get them arguing where the dog is gonna pee.

They are playing us folks.



posted on May, 18 2016 @ 08:59 PM
link   
a reply to: Freija

I watched the video and I thought that she was spot on with how many people just "pretend" to be one of these gender categories for attention or political points. A couple of points though.

1. Many people would make the same argument about trans people. Why couldn't a person "fake" being trans for the same reasons they fake being gender fluid. I am sure a gender fluid person or any of those other categories would call her a bigot. This is the problem with using this type of language when arguing an issue.

2. The argument for what restroom to use is still a "feeling" issue. No matter how you slice it, even if being trans is 100% legitimate as a medical condition, the argument for which restroom to use still is a feeling issue. Why is the feeling of trans people more important than cis or gender fluid people?

I honestly don't care who is in the restroom with me. I think that as many have said, many trans people have used the restroom of their choice for ever, and it wasn't really a problem. What angers me is the establishment, media, academia, Obama, etc. all forcing this on people, and then calling anyone with questions or disagreements a bigot. The very girl in the video you show would be called a bigot by these very people!

Lastly, I am not sure what the picture you are showing prove. You can be trans gender at 5 or younger? Are those pictured born female, transitioning to men? If so, are you suggesting that 5 year olds use the restroom of what they are transitioning too? That seems insane!



posted on May, 18 2016 @ 09:30 PM
link   
a reply to: DBCowboy

You guys ever see that 90's movie "Starship Troopers"?

They had coed showers and fought giant bugs! But that's all just fantasy.



posted on May, 18 2016 @ 10:06 PM
link   

originally posted by: Grambler
a reply to: Freija

I watched the video and I thought that she was spot on with how many people just "pretend" to be one of these gender categories for attention or political points. A couple of points though.

1. Many people would make the same argument about trans people. Why couldn't a person "fake" being trans for the same reasons they fake being gender fluid. I am sure a gender fluid person or any of those other categories would call her a bigot. This is the problem with using this type of language when arguing an issue.

How exactly do you fake being trans? I'd like to get a better understanding what you're thinking here?


2. The argument for what restroom to use is still a "feeling" issue. No matter how you slice it, even if being trans is 100% legitimate as a medical condition, the argument for which restroom to use still is a feeling issue. Why is the feeling of trans people more important than cis or gender fluid people?

How about the right to equal accommodations and services which doesn't have much to do with with "feelings"? What rights are being violated if a transgender woman uses the same bathroom as other women? In the case of transgender students in the education system, which is specifically what this thread is about, they are a highly vulnerable, at risk demographic for suicide and other co-morbidities such as depression, anxiety, eating disorders and cutting not to mention violence, which I can speak of personally, and bullying. 87% of transgender students report feeling unsafe at school. Several organizations have put together guidelines you might find informative. Please download and review the PDF, Schools in Transition: A Guide for Suppoting Transgender Students in K-12 Schools


I honestly don't care who is in the restroom with me. I think that as many have said, many trans people have used the restroom of their choice for ever, and it wasn't really a problem.

It is not.


What angers me is the establishment, media, academia, Obama, etc. all forcing this on people, and then calling anyone with questions or disagreements a bigot. The very girl in the video you show would be called a bigot by these very people!

Being obnoxious and anti-feminist is kind of this YouTuber's schtick. She's certainly not PC, that's for sure. When there are social issues like this that are new and unfamiliar and people are ignorant of the facts, it does make people angry and is polarizing. If you watched the one Ted Talk with Nicole Maines, her parents sued the school board for the right for her to use the girl's bathroom and won. These legal challenges have been happening all over because parents want things to be the best for their special children so they are treated inclusively and have normal educational opportunities and lives like any other kid.

Why this is in everyone's face is because of the religious fundamentalist lobby, cleverly under the guise of "family values" made it an issue, got anti-trans legislature incorporated to the official Republican National Committee platform and turned the whole thing into a sh!tstorm that has now turned transgender issues into a political wedge using transgender people as pawns. This is in direct retribution of the Obergfell decision on marriage equality, plain and simple.


Lastly, I am not sure what the picture you are showing prove. You can be trans gender at 5 or younger? Are those pictured born female, transitioning to men? If so, are you suggesting that 5 year olds use the restroom of what they are transitioning too? That seems insane!


Who would send ANY 5 year old into a restroom alone? Yikes!

Yes, all those children were assigned male at birth. The weight of all current scientific and medical evidence points to the causes of gender dysphoria being biological or genetic in nature. Yes, it can be observed in very young children who often protest they are not boys or girls as soon as they can talk. Any child development book will tell you a child's awareness of gender and sense of their own develops between 2 and 4 and is very resistant if not impossible to change.

What clinicians look for is that this is demonstrated insistently, persistently and consistently over time (years). Parents do not make kids transgender. They are often horrified and do everything in their power to make their kids "normal" which only exacerbates the situation. Nothing is done medically to these kids and at most they socially transition with different clothes, hair style, names and pronouns. This is all very complicated and nuanced and really off topic for this thread but letting a young child transition is often a last resort and is done under the care of specialists in the field and is unique to each family situation. Let's not go there now, please.



posted on May, 18 2016 @ 10:45 PM
link   

originally posted by: Freija

How exactly do you fake being trans? I'd like to get a better understanding what you're thinking here?


By claiming it. I will grant you schools are requiring medical documentation but not the rest of the world. If a man wants to put a dress on and go to the ladies room in a bar restaurant etc. who is to stop him?



How about the right to equal accommodations and services which doesn't have much to do with with "feelings"? What rights are being violated if a transgender woman uses the same bathroom as other women? In the case of transgender students in the education system, which is specifically what this thread is about, they are a highly vulnerable, at risk demographic for suicide and other co-morbidities such as depression, anxiety, eating disorders and cutting not to mention violence, which I can speak of personally, and bullying. 87% of transgender students report feeling unsafe at school. Several organizations have put together guidelines you might find informative. Please download and review the PDF, Schools in Transition: A Guide for Suppoting Transgender Students in K-12 Schools


I agree that trans people are bullied qnd attacked, and it is a terrible thing. No one deserves this, regardless of any situation.

How are trans people not being offered equal restrooms? The restrooms are designed based on sex, not gender. A born sex male would be more suited to a urinal than a toilet to pee right? So what is unequal? Next people will be saying trans men that want to use womens room need urinals in the womens room because they are not being offered appropriate facilities for their sex in the gender facility they want. This is proven by the fact that some trans students have been offered separate facilities, but they didn't feel like they wanted to be separated. Remember this thread on Lila? www.abovetopsecret.com...

Also, I have only found one long term study on trans people and their propensity to be violent, and it concludes that most trans people tend to be as violent as the sex they were born. In other words, men trans to women that use womens rooms are just as likely to be violent as men. Given this, shouldn't the girls who will have the trans in their restrooms have the right to be concerned?


Second, regarding any crime, male-to-females had a significantly increased risk for crime compared to female controls (aHR 6.6; 95% CI 4.1–10.8) but not compared to males (aHR 0.8; 95% CI 0.5–1.2). This indicates that they retained a male pattern regarding criminality. The same was true regarding violent crime. By contrast, female-to-males had higher crime rates than female controls (aHR 4.1; 95% CI 2.5–6.9) but did not differ from male controls. This indicates a shift to a male pattern regarding criminality and that sex reassignment is coupled to increased crime rate in female-to-males. The same was true regarding violent crime.


journals.plos.org.../journal.pone.0016885

I am sorry it is late but I promise to read your PDF. I hope you read my link as well.

Also I added this;

Here are a list of 25 incidents of criminality occuring with people cliaming they were trans and other issues such as this.
www.breitbart.com...
edit on 18-5-2016 by Grambler because: added link



posted on May, 19 2016 @ 12:01 AM
link   

originally posted by: Grambler

--- How exactly do you fake being trans? I'd like to get a better understanding what you're thinking here?

By claiming it. I will grant you schools are requiring medical documentation but not the rest of the world. If a man wants to put a dress on and go to the ladies room in a bar restaurant etc. who is to stop him?


This thread and Obama's guidelines are about schools. Does a man in a dress present some particular threat? Should he do something untoward or inappropriate, that would already be against the law and a dude in a dress is likely to be under a lot of scrutiny. Comes in, pees in a stall with the door closed, washes hands and leaves, what's the problem? That's not saying it might make people uncomfortable, and I admit it might make me a bit but being uncomfortable doesn't trump a person's right to pee. There are far better venues for predators than in a restaurant or bar anyway and why would someone go to all the trouble of dressing up?

Actually, the laws that force buff transgender men, who look like men, sound like men and act like men into the ladies room are what allows a predatory male to walk into the women's bathroom without even wearing a dress. Just has to say he is a transgender man.




How are trans people not being offered equal restrooms? The restrooms are designed based on sex, not gender. A born sex male would be more suited to a urinal than a toilet to pee right?


God, I swear you've been watching too much porn or something or have being transgender mixed up with cross-dressers or drag queens or I don't know what? Here's some average and not so average trans women. Even should some of them have the plumbing that facilitates standing to pee, which is none of our business to know, do you really think they're going to be standing at a urinal? Seriously. Trans women are not men.




So what is unequal? Next people will be saying trans men that want to use womens room need urinals in the womens room because they are not being offered appropriate facilities for their sex in the gender facility they want.


How about this, trans men use the men's room and trans women use the women's room. This is the way it has always been and it has worked out fine until the godsquad made transgender people more feared than Muslims. (think about that one for a minute)


This is proven by the fact that some trans students have been offered separate facilities, but they didn't feel like they wanted to be separated. Remember this thread on Lila? www.abovetopsecret.com...


This particular case is problematic but it does highlight the issue of exclusion and being singled out and the whole separate but equal thing that historically hasn't worked out too well. Back to our hypothetical high school girl where no one knows of her history - force her to use a special bathroom and she is outed and becomes a target. Most kids just want to get quietly through their day, be treated like any other kid and particularly for the ones that have been on blockers and hormones and do have the secondary sexual characteristics of their peers, segregating and isolating them is really unfair and how this got started in the first place.


Also, I have only found one long term study on trans people and their propensity to be violent, and it concludes that most trans people tend to be as violent as the sex they were born. In other words, men trans to women that use womens rooms are just as likely to be violent as men. Given this, shouldn't the girls who will have the trans in their restrooms have the right to be concerned?

journals.plos.org.../journal.pone.0016885



Here are a list of 25 incidents of criminality occuring with people cliaming they were trans and other issues such as this.
www.breitbart.com...


Breitbart Huh? 20 whole stories out of how many millions of people in this country?

Deep sigh - same ol' thing over and over and I don't know how many times I have to post this?


Whenever a concern troll "someone playing the moral high ground" brings up Dr. Dehjne’s study, they try to use it to prove that transgender people commit suicide at a really high rate. Or that they’re just as criminal as men. Or that health care for transgender people is ineffective and should be discontinued. In fact, all of these are either gross representations of the actual findings of the study. Let’s take them one by one.

So what does the study say about transgender people and suicide? It’s higher, but only statistically so for those who transitioned before 1989. Afterwards, there’s no statistically significant difference between transgender people and the general population.

What does it say about criminal convictions? It says the same thing, no statistically significant different for those who transitioned after 1989. What does it say about the efficacy of health care for transgender people? It says the study shouldn’t be used to make any judgments about the efficacy of transgender health care, because there is no control group, and that the consensus is health care is beneficial.

So what does the study ACTUALLY recommend? Transgender people need better follow up care after surgery.


Try reading what the lead researcher had to say about this study: Interview with Dr. Dehjnes



posted on May, 19 2016 @ 04:46 AM
link   
a reply to: Grambler

Yes, and how are we going to stop all those thousands of people who are going to marry their dogs or their toasters or their 6 year old children if we allow gays to marry????

Your attempts to fear monger by using the slippery slope are just as pathetic. There are other states and cities who have for some time now had similar non-discrimination laws - their world hasn't ended because of it.



posted on May, 19 2016 @ 07:18 AM
link   

originally posted by: kaylaluv
a reply to: Grambler

As I said, all these things will work themselves out. No need to fear monger. All will be well.


With that attitude, I am confused as to why you have been so vocal about this on other threads? I mean, I know the answer, I just wonder if you do.
edit on 19-5-2016 by network dude because: bad spler



posted on May, 19 2016 @ 08:30 AM
link   

originally posted by: Freija

There are far better venues for predators than in a restaurant or bar anyway and why would someone go to all the trouble of dressing up?


Yet your argument seems to be that people are lining up at bars and restaurant etc. to beat trans people in the wrong room. You are saying it is not about feelings but safety, my argument is if trans people have the right to feel safe, why shouldn't non trans?


Actually, the laws that force buff transgender men, who look like men, sound like men and act like men into the ladies room are what allows a predatory male to walk into the women's bathroom without even wearing a dress. Just has to say he is a transgender man.

Thats a fair point. However, its not always so cut and dry. The truth is the worlds not fair. You post all of these examples of good looking trans people, and the reality is that is not what most people look like, trans or not. Before all of this was made a media extravaganza, the man you posted would have used the mens room, and I would have been fine with that. What Obama and others are pushing is that people should be allowed to use whatever restroom they want. For this thread particular, as you have brought up, we are talking about schools. What does this man have to do with using a school restroom?

And is it just me or do you seem obsessed with looks? All of the pictures you post are from innocent looking harmless trans. Why not post these photos?

(I cant figure out how to post photos, here is the links)

www.google.com... ent.co.uk%2Fnews%2Fworld%2Famericas%2Fstefonknee-wolschtt-transgender-father-leaves-family-in-toronto-to-start-new-life-as-a-six-year-old-a6769051.htm l&bvm=bv.122129774,d.cWw&psig=AFQjCNFdNibDlzm6ysXK6o9m9zyPrHqPNg&ust=1463748608108952

www.google.com... .wordpress.com%2Fauthor%2Farharrod%2F&bvm=bv.122129774,d.cWw&psig=AFQjCNH7_XGar7g1uaA7X8KSl5fIKUid4Q&ust=1463749188530770

Also, if it is about safety, wouldn't it be true that regardless of your gender or anything, you are more likely to be attacked in a mens room? So wouldn't that mean the trans man you have posted a picture of would still be less likely to be attacked in the womens room? Ah, but he wouldn't FEEL right there, correct? This proves that many times it is not about safety but feelings.




God, I swear you've been watching too much porn or something or have being transgender mixed up with cross-dressers or drag queens or I don't know what? Here's some average and not so average trans women. Even should some of them have the plumbing that facilitates standing to pee, which is none of our business to know, do you really think they're going to be standing at a urinal? Seriously. Trans women are not men.


What is unequal between mens and womens rooms?




How about this, trans men use the men's room and trans women use the women's room. This is the way it has always been and it has worked out fine until the godsquad made transgender people more feared than Muslims. (think about that one for a minute)


You hate Muslims?




This particular case is problematic but it does highlight the issue of exclusion and being singled out and the whole separate but equal thing that historically hasn't worked out too well. Back to our hypothetical high school girl where no one knows of her history - force her to use a special bathroom and she is outed and becomes a target. Most kids just want to get quietly through their day, be treated like any other kid and particularly for the ones that have been on blockers and hormones and do have the secondary sexual characteristics of their peers, segregating and isolating them is really unfair and how this got started in the first place.


See this is what I mean. The ones that are lucky enough to be able to afford treatment and fortunate enough to look the part are the ones you are concerned with. What about the others? Look you can blame the godsquad all you want, the truth is people on the other side have done their share of nitpicking and pushing too. You claim it is about safety, Lila here was offered a safe space, but that wasn't good enough. The truth is the battle will continue until trans people get things exactly the way they want, they are as unwilling to comprise as the "godsquad".




Breitbart Huh? 20 whole stories out of how many millions of people in this country?


You don't like the source. I mean, clearly they are not as unbiased as your source, The Transadvocate. This merely proves that these laws can be used by criminals to take advantage of the situation.


Deep sigh - same ol' thing over and over and I don't know how many times I have to post this?


Fair enough. However, bad work by the author not mentioning the difference between the group to 88 as opposed to 2003. Clearly she should expect people to assume she meant the entire group when she said they maintain male criminality patterns.

Look I get it. You think good looking trans people who can afford proper care should have the ability to chose where they go to the restroom. You think it is a safety issue, except when its not and then it doesn't matter there feelings should take precedent. You do not think that gender fluid etc. should have their feelings taken into account, and everyone who disagrees with you is a godsquad bigot.




top topics



 
19
<< 1  2    4  5  6 >>

log in

join