There IS life after DEATH: Scientists reveal shock findings from groundbreaking study

originally posted by: elysiumfire
Xcathdra:

My experience was not something I dreamed or misinterpreted.

Yes, it was.
...
I can no more accept your claim of an 'experience' without direct evidence to support it

Reflect on your error
correct it for furthering your debate ability




___
Answer:
You cannot state flatly that the experience you are skeptical of was dreamed or misinterpreted. That is a possibility, and perhaps even the likely answer, but you yourself have no evidence to insist thats all it was, unless you are magical..therefore you shouldn't have used "yes, it was", but rather "in all likelyhood, it probably was".
Some could say its splitting hairs, but its the difference between reasonable skepticism from lack of evidence verses religious demand from faith.

SaturnFX:

Reflect on your error. Correct it for furthering your debate ability.

There is no error, and I am not debating, merely stating opinions.

You cannot state flatly that the experience you are sceptical of was dreamed or misinterpreted.

Yes I can, and did.

That is a possibility, and perhaps even the likely answer, but you yourself have no evidence to insist that's all it was, unless you are magical..therefore you shouldn't have used "yes, it was", but rather "in all likelihood, it probably was".

I am not accepting of these claims because the claims themselves are not supported by evidence. The onus of proof does not lay in my rebuttal by opinion, the onus of proof is on those who make the claim. Proof is everything!

I cannot use the phrase 'in all likelihood', because there is nothing 'likely' about the absence of proof, there is no proof, it really is absent, for every single claim...no exceptions. The absence of proof really means there is no proof, and it is irrelevant to think that at some time in the future proof may be presented? We are not living in the future, we are living in the present, and at present, there is no proof, and until that time proof is presented, my stance will always be...show me, then I will reasonably change my stance, but not before.

I don't have a closed mind, because if I did, I would not accept the proof, which of course, must fulfil certain criteria of reason.

a reply to: bknapple32

It boils down to two possibilities.

1. Your consciousness generates reality.

2. Reality results in your consciousness.


Basically, either we are spiritual beings experiencing physical existence, or physical beings experiencing spiritual existence. And yes, the truth is, you won't know until you die whether you really die or not. Nothing to be afraid of. If you in fact cease to exist, you won't know it because you can't experience non existence. Or we go on in some way in which case we are still alive, our bodies just stop functioning. My personal favorite, is that the universe just keep oscillating between big bang and big implosion, and in every expansion is every possible expression of reality that can happen.So, in about 30 billion years, I will be here again typing this. Except I may have blue eyes this time. Or be Chinese.

Humans are so strange, if only they knew.

You are all awareness, your bodies are only a host for you to experience life lessons of good and evil.

Fact is, when your body dies you are still "awareness" without a body. You never really die. When you die you are going back home.

What is our home? A very good question. My understanding it is a place that we are all to familiar with a pond death.

Your soul is nothing more then energy that never dies. The souls are like sands on a beach, billions and billions of different souls to so many species although the galaxies. Every soul has a purpose, just the tip of the iceberg before going down this rabbit hole.

originally posted by: Xcathdra
I assume you are an atheist?

Why would you assume that?
a christian would have just as much denial in your experience as an atheist, as a btb christian believes that when you die, you are sleeping until judgment day.

atheist simply means a lack of belief in god.

Did you meet someone you genuinely knew without a doubt was a deity? Wouldn't any advanced being be seen as a deity?
Lets say your experiences are genuinely real, you still cant understand what happened to you given your time there was small and limited, and your understanding had to be filtered back through your faulty meat brain in things you can identify with here with these perspectives.

You can be an atheist spiritualist.

a reply to: elysiumfire

no hearsay is a person repeating what someone else told them. My experience was unique and was not a dream and no amount of your ignorance will change that.

I will take your answer about atheism and deduce that life after death is a concept you do not believe in and the only way to keep that belief intact is to dismiss experiences people have that run counter to your position.

Thank you though for revealing why your opposed to these experiences.

originally posted by: SaturnFX

originally posted by: Xcathdra
I assume you are an atheist?

Why would you assume that?
a christian would have just as much denial in your experience as an atheist, as a btb christian believes that when you die, you are sleeping until judgment day.

atheist simply means a lack of belief in god.

Did you meet someone you genuinely knew without a doubt was a deity? Wouldn't any advanced being be seen as a deity?
Lets say your experiences are genuinely real, you still cant understand what happened to you given your time there was small and limited, and your understanding had to be filtered back through your faulty meat brain in things you can identify with here with these perspectives.

You can be an atheist spiritualist.

I always equate atheism with the analogy of a wave not believing in the ocean.

originally posted by: elysiumfire

There is no error, and I am not debating, merely stating opinions.
...
Yes I can, and did.

ok, then why should anyone give a toss about your belief system?
Your church group meet on weekdays?

I am not accepting of these claims because the claims themselves are not supported by evidence.

And ironically you claim another person dreamed or misidentified without you giving strong evidence demonstrating why...you didn't suggest, or present likelyhood, you stated flat out.
So
show me evidence of your positive claim
....
fundys are easy to smash apart. your egotism in your belief structure will always be your undoing

The onus of proof does not lay in my rebuttal by opinion, the onus of proof is on those who make the claim.

and you made the claim
you claimed it was a dream, no possible other consideration...dream or confusion..you stood on a mountain of certainty, smashed your flag down, and claimed this with absolute certainty

you are absolutely no different than a cultist

Proof is everything!

Tell yourself that

I don't have a closed mind, because if I did, I would not accept the proof, which of course, must fulfil certain criteria of reason.

your mind is welded shut, your opinions made, and your religion started without any requirement of proof for your own claims.
You are soo tied up in your own belief system that you dont even see the problem with you claiming to know what other people experience without evidence to back you up before you diagnose.

Informer1958

You are all awareness, your bodies are only a host for you to experience life lessons of good and evil. Fact is, when your body dies you are still "awareness" without a body. You never really die. When you die you are going back home.

Interesting opinion, even though you call it a fact. How can you possibly know it to be a fact, and do you expect others to believe you, and if so, by what criteria?

Your soul is nothing more then energy that never dies.

Interesting premise. What kind of energy is it? If you say it is conscious energy or spiritual energy, I would like you to elaborate further, and describe the power source. Thank you.

originally posted by: openminded2011

originally posted by: SaturnFX

originally posted by: Xcathdra
I assume you are an atheist?

Why would you assume that?
a christian would have just as much denial in your experience as an atheist, as a btb christian believes that when you die, you are sleeping until judgment day.

atheist simply means a lack of belief in god.

Did you meet someone you genuinely knew without a doubt was a deity? Wouldn't any advanced being be seen as a deity?
Lets say your experiences are genuinely real, you still cant understand what happened to you given your time there was small and limited, and your understanding had to be filtered back through your faulty meat brain in things you can identify with here with these perspectives.

You can be an atheist spiritualist.

I always equate atheism with the analogy of a wave not believing in the ocean.

I always equate theism as a sailor seeing a ocean and demanding there must therefore be mermaids.

originally posted by: Informer1958
Humans are so strange, if only they knew.

...you're a human

Being comatose doesn't count as life after death. And dimethyltryptamine (sp?) produces experiences every bit as compelling as your generic holy vision.

Xcathdra

No hearsay is a person repeating what someone else told them.

I don't know why you are saying 'no'. You might well be repeating what someone else has stated, either in a book, or some other form of media. No one else could be any wiser...hence hearsay.

My experience was unique and was not a dream and no amount of your ignorance will change that.

Why do you assume I am ignorant? Do you think I would be making posts if I wasn't armed with the relevant knowledge and information on the subject?

...life after death is a concept you do not believe in and the only way to keep that belief intact is to dismiss experiences people have that run counter to your position.

I have no belief either way, I have a current stance that will change with the presentation of appropriate data. Nor am I dismissing the experience people have, I am simply doubting the claim, which runs counter-intuitive to the evidence that there is no evidence. While it remains so, having no data to convince me elsewise, I remain committed to my stance.

a reply to: elysiumfire

Right.. this has become pointless so I will let you go hunt your whale now Ahab.

SaturnFX:

Okay then, why should anyone give a toss about your belief system?

Indeed, why should they?

Ironically, you claim another person dreamed or misidentified without you giving strong evidence demonstrating why?

I made no such 'ironic' claim, as there is no irony. Do you think his claim to be fact, or do you merely think it a possibility? If you think the former you must have the evidence...please show it to me. If you think the latter, then what I state is fact, because it cannot be factually known to be anything other. Possibility isn't fact, it is supposition or speculation, and places the claim in those realms, so if it is not fact, the next level where fact is found is in either dream or misinterpretation.

The rest of your post is nonsensical presumptuous garbage.

Xcathdra:

I will let you go hunt your whale now Ahab.

Lol! Call me Ishmael. There she blows!

Gotta love science.

Has it ever gotten anything right the first time? lol.

Can't do that

yes you can

no you can't

watch

oh well, of course it works!



eta; and that's just stuff that is in the material world!

a reply to: elysiumfire

Interesting opinion, even though you call it a fact. How can you possibly know it to be a fact, and do you expect others to believe you, and if so, by what criteria?

I do not expect anyone to believe me, the people who have seriously researched the many topics of NDE, ADC, Spirituality, many religions, clairvoyants, and many psychic phenomena will tell you what I have written is true.

Not everyone on ATS has the same interest as I do, correct?

Interesting premise. What kind of energy is it? If you say it is conscious energy or spiritual energy, I would like you to elaborate further, and describe the power source. Thank you.

Power source?

You are looking for something earthly and tangible, something like matter? It is an energy beyond human science and will never be proven on earth. It is beyond mans understanding and billions of other species, beyond our solar system.

Not everything can be explained by science, there are things that man will never understand and rightly so.

Man has a lot to learn on earth, man will not love unconditionally, man refuses to get along with their neighbors, much less different cultures from around the world.

Yet a dog, a species much lower then man can love, and love unconditionally, why is that? Perhaps we humans can learn a thing or two from our own pets.

Love is the most powerful energy in the world and can solve all of mans problems, yet many powerful men around the world love evil and embrace it, why?

No, I do not expect anyone to believe me, we all have our own journey in this universe of life lessons.

Informer1958:

Not everyone on ATS has the same interest as I do, correct?

I agree.

I do not expect anyone to believe me...

That's fine.

...people who have seriously researched the many topics of NDE, ADC, Spirituality, many religions, clairvoyants, and many psychic phenomena will tell you what I have written is true.

Do you think I have not seriously researched the topics you have mentioned? I have studied the subjects since the mid-seventies, from the perspective of acceptance of an afterlife. When Moody's book "Life After Life" came out in '76, I thought here was a new phenomenon that could lend itself to some form of evidential proof, but as time went by, it proved not to be the case.

Power source?

Yes, power source. For a disembodied awareness to persist after the destruction of the physical organic body, it would require a means of power by which it could persist. Power source is everything.

No, I am not looking for something earthly or tangible, like matter, but an energy differing in wavelength that is as ethereal as a radio signal, but with a definite source of power...there has to be energetic exchange between the disembodied awareness and the environment in which it abides? How else could it persist in existence?

As you are quite aware, for the human body to grow and mature and to persist throughout its life, it requires a power source, a fuel, and that is catered for by the input of food, and its breakdown by digestion. This is one form of energy exchange between the entity and the environment in which it abides. This principle of energy exchange between the internal and external (implicate and explicate) would necessarily be the same for all forms of existence. It is what allows for existence. in the first place. Without some form of energy exchange taking place (the type of which to be determined), there can be no existence.

By the way, it is not the energy that underlies the emergence of consciousness, as consciousness is a 'state of condition' that the entity comes into through energy exchange. Trust me, I have been down that route. We are not consciousness made entity, we are entity made conscious. Consciousness is a resonance by-product of energy exchange, and thus, a disembodied awareness necessarily remains conscious by some energy exchange mechanism.

Further more, a disembodied awareness would also require a many-layered, wide spectrum of memory which would need to be permanently energised in order that the entity can intelligently persist, but with a means of focus to narrow and filter the chatter down to specific attention. So a disembodied awareness would have at least two levels of of mind, the conscious and subconscious? Of course, these are hypothetical speculations on my part which logical analysis throws up.

Not everything can be explained by science...

Science is far better at deducing what things are not, rather than what they are. It is an excellent tool for bringing things into a range of understanding by its stern and austere method. It is disingenuous to place a belief in the refuge of a claim that the scientific method will never bring about an understanding of a subject. The scientific method should be free to look at whatever subject it pleases, but work and remain within ethical and moral considerations. It should seek to eradicate fallacy with truth without being destructive.

Wish it were so but many years of seeing this and that just won't allow me. Does anyone know if this story is being carrried by other websites? I don't trust hte express.

Sigh. I believe when we die our body and mind dies. Life is what it appears to be. What we leave behind us very important.

I won't say I KNOW> I don't. I don't have anyting against rleigious people. They might be right. Live to the fullest you can.

Wish I could be more substantive. Just not right now.