Muslim World War or Muslim Civil War?

Originally posted by Majic

Basically, it's Charles Manson's "helter skelter" strategy applied to Islam.

This is my point. Will it spread to the point where the Muslim world is at war with the entire planet or will will it split them into two (or more) camps as it seems to be doing. The Peace makers among them seem to be scared to speak up.

And it not just on their side, PLENTY of people (even here) would love to just "Nuke the hell out of them" (the middle east)


[edit on 15-1-2005 by Amuk]

Originally posted by Amuk
The Peace makers among them seem to be scared to speak up.

If they lose, we lose.

The fact that you see this does you credit in my humble opinion.

Victory does not come from the fist, but from the embrace.

Originally posted by Majic

If they lose, we lose.

That is part of what I am trying to get debated here. I think the answer lies WITHIN the Muslim world not from us forcing it on them. But they have elements that will not stand for peace with the infidels and we have people that arent much better.

Victory does not come from the fist, but from the embrace.

Again true. But I cant see this happening till they make a stronger attempt at controling or at least speaking out against those who dont want it.

Originally posted by Amuk
But I cant see this happening till they make a stronger attempt at controling or at least speaking out against those who dont want it.

Absolutely. And it's worth pointing out that even the "peacemakers" will spit on us if we show so much as a moment's weakness.

That's one of the reasons why the "Surrender Now!" crowd here on ATS and elsewhere make me nauseous: because they are prolonging the war with their mealy-mouthed ambiguity.

By doing so, they directly contribute to the deaths of innocents, and blood is on their hands whether they refuse to admit it or not.

You don't defeat evil by saying "Maybe you're right..."

Idiots.

its a difficult one, the risk is to surrender then to find out about extermination and slavery agendas later, theres a famous saying where they say something along the lines,

"when we where burning in the ovens, we then wished we had not surrended and when they came for us met them with axes and pokers etc".

can anyone post the proper qoute for this as i cant find it?.



[edit on 15-1-2005 by MysticOfRadiance]

Originally posted by Amuk
It seems to me that the world is headed in one of two directions, a Muslim World War OR a Civil War among the Muslims between the extremists and the "sane" ones.

We are not the only people fighting the Extremists, so are Russia and I only see it expanding further in the future. There are already problems in Europe, Asia, India, Africa all with Muslim Extremists.

I am not in any way saying that ALL Muslims are "crazed killers" far from it, but I am begining to think the only the more rational ones are going to stop a full world war with their religion is to take it back from the crazies.

Any thoughts on the subject?

This is one of the reasons why we are fighting the war on terror Amuk. i really wish there was another way to solve this problem, and it is a problem, but the only way i see it is by what you mentioned above. i sounds harsh, but I don't see any other way. Look at what extremists Muslims are doing in south Africa and other nations around the world. More than half of the conflicts in the world have extremist Muslims as the cause, or one of the groups fighting.

Originally posted by Majic

Originally posted by Amuk
But I cant see this happening till they make a stronger attempt at controling or at least speaking out against those who dont want it.

Absolutely. And it's worth pointing out that even the "peacemakers" will spit on us if we show so much as a moment's weakness.

That's one of the reasons why the "Surrender Now!" crowd here on ATS and elsewhere make me nauseous: because they are prolonging the war with their mealy-mouthed ambiguity.

By doing so, they directly contribute to the deaths of innocents, and blood is on their hands whether they refuse to admit it or not.

You don't defeat evil by saying "Maybe you're right..."

Idiots.

how did you read my post before i wrote it, though i was talking about the iraqis not the ats'ers.

they always say its best to go out fighting then to be tagged and rot in some extermination/concentration camp at the hands of the corrupt.

Originally posted by St Udio
Whats this 21st century theme?
The Amish and other communities co-exist & flourish within the USA,
these communities are also socially & governmental wise, considered
'backward' and 'archaic' by the modern american standards...
Are these people next in line for a 'modernization & enlightenment' ?

...---...---...
Bread & Circus adventure

Last time I checked the Amish are not going around killing innocents and demanding that the world must be dominated by their religion or be destroyed. There is no chance we will be going after the Amish or anyone that just wants to live in peace, even if they follow another religion.

This really is a most excellent topic and one we have kicked around in our house from time to time. I actually posted an article on ATSNN about fault lines growing in Islam.

The actions of Bin laden and the like are simply not congruent with mainstream Islam. It is our fundemental misunderstanding of the reegion, its religion, and our own history of disaterous interference that gives the impression that every Arab is a car bomber.

Whabbi Islam is to regular Islam what say David Koresh's is to the Vatican. Its an ultra radical world view where violence is an acceptable means to an end.

If the conditions allow themselves to manifest you may see a internal struggle between the sects. And make no mistake the world will be drawn in. Imagine if the jihadist take Saudi. It will be more than a name change (Saudi is named after the ruling House of Saud). Not only are we talking an extremist nation with alot of oil, money, and a decent modern military, we are talking about a radical nation that will controll the holy shrines of Mecca and Medina. Block pilgrims from say a Shiite nation from making the sacred Haj and you have the grounds for war. As simple as it sounds, this is a plausable scenario.

While the hatred for the west may date back a century, the internal strife has been there for a milenia.

Sorry if I rambled, I havent been able to sleep for 28 hours so Im a bit tired.

Well Amuk I am not sure how exactly to feel about muslims. I live in NY and I had to go through the hole 9/11 thing. I almost lost a cousin of mine because of those terrorists. I also have muslim cousins. A part of my people are muslim. If a civil war broke out Im sure they would probably try to kill my cousins. I dont think it would go that far. They are to busy fighting the rest of the world to kill other people of their own religion. It would probably be those muslims against the rest of the world.

FredT, just so, just so.

I am furious that no "way above" option appears below your name.

Originally posted by Majic
FredT, just so, just so.
I am furious that no "way above" option appears below your name.

Thanks Majic! I appreciate that. The Middle East is an area I have studied for some time with particular emphasis on the West's influence and lack of over the years. We are truly responsable for alot of the problems in the region oil or no oil

Great Post Fred

That is exactly what I am trying to bring into this debate. Most of us have really little knowledge of the average Muslim or the Middle east culture. I would love to hear more from you and others that have first hand knowledge of the area and its people.

What seems to me is that the time is aproaching where the Muslim world ITSELF is going to have to deal with the extremists or risk what could easily BECOME a true world wide holy war. I know the Muslims I know dont agree with the extreem views any more than most Christians agree with Burning witches.

But what is the answer? Are the more moderate affraid to speak up OR are they just not getting the media coverage? I remember in the South during the 60s a lot of us were for equal rights for blacks but every interview was with a KKK member it seemed like. It made it look like ALL Southerners were Bigots a tag we still after 50 years havent shaken. Could that be similar to what the Moderates are experincing there?

It could have a lot to due with the fact that both their media and ours isn't out to show the whole story. They are out to make money.

If the normal muslims are to take control in the middle east they will have to do it without goverment support, without media support, and with tons of enemies.

Those people won't get press time for their messages and actions won't be as riveting and well extreme as the battles between our forces and the extremists.

I frankly think the whole situation is going to have to get much worse before it can get better. I'm not sure how it will happen but someone or some group of people will have to rise that can directly counter the extremists. To rise they will need to communicate, and communicate quickly. I'm not so sure word of mouth will suffice this time.

The current mullahs and such dont seem that willing and the ones that do seem willing have their voices drowned out by the media and the extremists. As biased as you think Al-jazerra and the like are, I don't beleive they are biased to the terrorists as much as they are biased to the money. Controversy and death sell, and they sell well.


I also truly beleive that between Christianity and Islam there are no differences that matter. Every difference I've seen are not important once compared to the fundamental teachings both offer. Which are nearly identical.

While traditions and practiced law differ greatly and almost entirely between the two their teachings on respect, love, peace, god, and a afterlife are near identical.

Err and I would say Muslim World War..

There is no way this can end without everyone getting involved. Truthfully it already is a world war.

Start naming countries that aren't at war, including civil war, domestic terrorists, and lending aid to other countries at war.

I'm betting that will be a short list.



--- Semi OFF Topic ----

Anyone play command and conquer generals, and zero hour? I wouldnt be surprised if that game turns out to be a damn near prophecy.

[edit on 16-1-2005 by Xerrog]

Originally posted by Xerrog
It could have a lot to due with the fact that both their media and ours isn't out to show the whole story. They are out to make money.

True. Both presses seem to paint a picture of the ENTIRE Muslim world as foaming at the mouth sucide bombers intent on the destruction of every non-Muslim.

While I havent met many Muslims the ones I have met did not fit this description. I think the peacemakers on both sides are being drowned out but reporters looking for "blood".

Hmmm Islam isn't stuck in the 12th century. 12century Islam is radically different from current Islam. Back then Women had more rights. Science was deemed important. Currently there are lot's of muslims which have turned to Wabbaism (i think that that was the term) which is less friendly to women.

Islamic world is currently in its dark age. like the western countries had a 1000 years ago.

A reason why theres so much opposition against western countries is that Islam was always attacked by the Christians while muslims accepted christians. The hatred against jews is something i am not sure about.