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My wife, makes less than her co workers despite more experience and doing better work. They get paid more, merely because they're men. She left, a few months later they begged her to come back for a $20,000 raise. She still makes less but it's at least tolerable now.
Next Jennifer Lawrence. She makes less per movie than her male counterparts. That's just a fact.
Third is the United States Women's soccer team. Despite winning and winning and winning and generating millions in revenue for the US soccer programs, they make an embarressing amount less than the men, who do not win.
Not every female gets paid less, but the wage gap is a real thing
On April 13, 1999, the United States district court ordered the grocery company to pay $6.2 million in what was one of the largest sex discrimination awards in Eastern Washington history.[6] Only a month later, it was discovered that Tidyman's did not have employment liability insurance when lawsuit was filed and the future of the retailer was in jeopardy.[6] Tidyman's had later purchased the insurance in 1997 but it was unable to help the retailer through the lawsuit.[6]
But in 1999, the company lost a sexual discrimination lawsuit filed by two former employees who said that Tidyman’s paid them less than their male counterparts and denied them promotions because they were female.
originally posted by: amazing
a reply to: rockintitz
I gave you three examples. Soccer is the most popular sport in the world for a reason. It's exciting. You might not think so but who are you against Billions of rabid fans. The Women's soccer team is amazing. Sorry you dont' think so but they generate a lot of money and get paid pennies compared to the mens team. That's systematic.
I bring up Jennifer Lawrence but most women in movies get paid less then male stars. The Hunger games movies made about $2,959,967,14 and The actress was reportedly paid $1m for The Hunger Games, $10m for The Hunger Games: Catching Fire and $15m for Mockingjay – Part One and Two.
Christian Bales batman movies made $2,463,716,216 for his three movies he got paid The Dark Knight Rises $15,000,000
The Dark Knight $10,000,000 +$20,000,000 bonus Batman Begin $9,000,000
That's just one example...it's usually way worse for other women actors not of Jennifer lawrence stature. Jennifer Lawrence's movies made about $500 million more than Bales ,she got paid $26 million and bale got paid $54 million That's standard hollywood gender pay gap.
My wife's is my real life experience. Millions of women in the US have the same experience, they can't all be wrong.
The real questions is not that this exists or doesn't exist but why would you pay a woman less than a man.
The second question is, why don't you like Soccer? LOL
@StephMcMahon And yet they receive a fraction of the wages & screen time of the majority of the male roster. #UseYourVoice
The real questions is not that this exists or doesn't exist but why would you pay a woman less than a man.
Exactly, though I believe it exists.
originally posted by: rockintitz
a reply to: amazing
Those were specific examples. Once again, I am talking about the wage gap overall.
Otherwise I could use specific examples to prove that men are underpaid compared to women.
originally posted by: Dark Ghost
a reply to: amazing
You might be the victim of brainwashing.
As I said before, extraneous variables can account for your examples rather easily. But I will just examine the movie one below:
Who was a more renowned actor before those movies were made? What was the overall budget of the movie? What about additional revenue generated from DVD/blue ray/merchandising as a result of the movie's release etc.?
As others have stated, if you can provide evidence that gender alone is the reason for the alleged disparity of pay between the sexes, then I will have to re-evaluate my currently held views and concede that I am wrong on this issue. I am yet to see one credible piece of evidence that suggests women are paid less than men due alone to their gender.
originally posted by: amazing
The problem again, is that it's not everywhere, and it's a different pay gap depending location, company, industry etc. Millions of women and thousands of surveys and studies can't all be wrong. LOL
originally posted by: Dark Ghost
originally posted by: amazing
The problem again, is that it's not everywhere, and it's a different pay gap depending location, company, industry etc. Millions of women and thousands of surveys and studies can't all be wrong. LOL
Okay, I don' dispute that there are studies whose authors have concluded that a pay gap exists. What I dispute is that their conclusions accurately reflect that gender difference alone accounts for this disparity.
As others have stated, the following key arguments cannot be denied:
1) It is illegal (in Western countries at least) to pay somebody less due to their gender
2) Studies that conclude a wage gap is due to gender alone do not take extraneous variables that are very likely to interfere with the integrity of the study into account
3) There are strong political motivations to find that a wage gap does exist instead of looking at the topic objectively
These arguments are grounds alone for critical thinkers to ask themselves: is gender the reason there is pay disparity, or is this the narrative I am being told to accept?
originally posted by: amazing
But there are still things to discuss..
1) It is illegal (in Western countries at least) to pay somebody less due to their gender There are ways around that. I can hire 10 people for the same job and pay them all differently with no laws being violated. It's very hard to gain any legal traction with these types of claims. You can always say more experience, or education or certification or qualifications or location or tenure.
2) Studies that conclude a wage gap is due to gender alone do not take extraneous variables that are very likely to interfere with the integrity of the study into account. and yet many of these studies do take those extraneous variables int o consideration and into account.
3) There are strong political motivations to find that a wage gap does exist instead of looking at the topic objectively. True in some instances
Yet...despite this women still get paid less than men in an alarming amount of cases. How can you just dismiss it? And then claim that all of those women are lying or sour grapes.
Why does Christian Bale deserve more money than Jennifer Lawrence? He doesn't.
Why do the men's USA soccer team deserve more money than the women? They don't. Pay everyone equally.
In fact, instead of us arguing whether or not this gap exists or not, why don't we look for every instance where there is a gap, and just fix it?
originally posted by: Dark Ghost
originally posted by: amazing
But there are still things to discuss..
1) It is illegal (in Western countries at least) to pay somebody less due to their gender There are ways around that. I can hire 10 people for the same job and pay them all differently with no laws being violated. It's very hard to gain any legal traction with these types of claims. You can always say more experience, or education or certification or qualifications or location or tenure.
But if somebody does have more experience, education or certification, aren't they technically entitled to more pay than somebody lacking in those areas? If the subject in question believes the employer is lying, they can take the issue to an authority that deals with issues such as these. If the employer cannot back up their justification for paying person Y more than person X, they have a case on their hands.
The reason it's probably hard to get any legal traction for claims of discrimination based on gender is because that is not the actual reason for the disparity in pay.
2) Studies that conclude a wage gap is due to gender alone do not take extraneous variables that are very likely to interfere with the integrity of the study into account. and yet many of these studies do take those extraneous variables int o consideration and into account.
Hmm, not the ones I've seen or the examples you have shared so far.
3) There are strong political motivations to find that a wage gap does exist instead of looking at the topic objectively. True in some instances
Well, according to my research it is true in the majority of them. When you research a study, you should be mindful of who funds the research or who has a vested interest in promoting it. There isn't ALWAYS a conflict in interest, but usually that's the case.
Yet...despite this women still get paid less than men in an alarming amount of cases. How can you just dismiss it? And then claim that all of those women are lying or sour grapes.
I dismiss that they are being paid less due to their gender, and instead examine other variables which might explain why there is a disparity. IF none can be identified, then you have a point.
Why does Christian Bale deserve more money than Jennifer Lawrence? He doesn't.
Do you have the number of hours worked of each, number of days taken off by each during filming? Did you consider their compared fame levels before filming started?
Why do the men's USA soccer team deserve more money than the women? They don't. Pay everyone equally.
Do the men and women's teams train for the same duration and play the same number of matches per calendar year, bring in the same revenue flow, have the same audience demand, devote the same time to promoting and participating in the game?
These are relevant questions which should be answered by any critical thinker before jumping to the "it's because of their sex" explanation.
In fact, instead of us arguing whether or not this gap exists or not, why don't we look for every instance where there is a gap, and just fix it?
Using that logic, if I am a retail assistant, I can demand equal pay with somebody that works longer hours, gets more work done in the same duration as me, makes more sales and brings in more customers than me, and takes less time off work than me.
All in the name of equality, right? Do you think a business will end up successful or a failure with such an approach?
originally posted by: Dark Ghost
But if somebody does have more experience, education or certification, aren't they technically entitled to more pay than somebody lacking in those areas? If the subject in question believes the employer is lying, they can take the issue to an authority that deals with issues such as these. If the employer cannot back up their justification for paying person Y more than person X, they have a case on their hands.
originally posted by: amazing
With regard to actors and actresses. Jennifer Lawrence is a good example She made more money than Christian Bale, by about $500 Million and got paid about $25 Million less with the extra work, being a whole extra movie. That's just one example. She worked more, made more money, is a better actress (debatable) and got paid less. That's a classic example.
Men's/women's soccer. Women have won 3 world cups or maybe more, all they do is win, they bring in millions of extra revenue just by virtue of winning so many games, advancing to semi-finals, finals and championship matches. They even have more endorsements and and exposure. Let's see, they're better, they work more and they make the US more money and get paid less than the men. That's another classic example.
Back do your work example and why people get paid less, than others. It's complicated. So if two people have similar but different experience even though it's roughly the same. They can be paid differently. No lawsuit. If two people have similur tenure but different say 6 months, you can pay the guy that has six months more experience more, even if his job quality is less. But what is that difference worth? How do you calculate it? You could argue the specifics in front of the supreme court and not get a good decision.
At the end when I said find it and fix it, you gave me a ludicrous example. I mean the real examples, like women's soccer. They should be paid more. It's all there in black and white...not just equal but more. Jennifer lawrence should be paid as much as Christian Bale. If you find a woman and man and both are exactly the same in quality, experience and everything else pay them the same.
I'll take it a step further. In business the only thing that matters is results. If two people bring in the same results, they should be paid the same regardless of experience, education or anything else. Results are all that matter.
originally posted by: Dark Ghost
originally posted by: amazing
With regard to actors and actresses. Jennifer Lawrence is a good example She made more money than Christian Bale, by about $500 Million and got paid about $25 Million less with the extra work, being a whole extra movie. That's just one example. She worked more, made more money, is a better actress (debatable) and got paid less. That's a classic example.
Hmm, did Lawrence make more money in virtue of her participation, or did the movie of which she was apart of make more money than Bale's movie did? BIG DIFFERENCE.
Again, do you have evidence she worked more hours on set than him? Who the better actor is doesn't matter, it's who the potential audience are willing to pay more to see that counts.
Men's/women's soccer. Women have won 3 world cups or maybe more, all they do is win, they bring in millions of extra revenue just by virtue of winning so many games, advancing to semi-finals, finals and championship matches. They even have more endorsements and and exposure. Let's see, they're better, they work more and they make the US more money and get paid less than the men. That's another classic example.
No offence, but that paragraph is a logical mess. You should read that again and see if your arguments make sense or not.
Back do your work example and why people get paid less, than others. It's complicated. So if two people have similar but different experience even though it's roughly the same. They can be paid differently. No lawsuit. If two people have similur tenure but different say 6 months, you can pay the guy that has six months more experience more, even if his job quality is less. But what is that difference worth? How do you calculate it? You could argue the specifics in front of the supreme court and not get a good decision.
If there is no evidence, there should be no case.
At the end when I said find it and fix it, you gave me a ludicrous example. I mean the real examples, like women's soccer. They should be paid more. It's all there in black and white...not just equal but more. Jennifer lawrence should be paid as much as Christian Bale. If you find a woman and man and both are exactly the same in quality, experience and everything else pay them the same.
Why don't you demonstrate that the women's soccer team are underpaid for the work they do relative to the tournaments they participate in? Why the need to compare them to the men's team, acting as though EVERY factor is the same except the genders. That is your biggest error.
Your last sentence is essentially what I have been saying since my first reply.
I'll take it a step further. In business the only thing that matters is results. If two people bring in the same results, they should be paid the same regardless of experience, education or anything else. Results are all that matter.
Agreed. But can you compare the results of a secretary with the results of a CEO in terms of raw money earned? NO YOU CAN'T! There are obvious variables you need to take into account before you can do so. Which has been my key argument from the beginning...
PS: For formatting, it takes practice, but just put a [quote] at the beginning of where my texts starts and a [/quote] where my text ends. Your own new text for the reply should NOT be enclosed in those tags; only what you want to be appear as quoted should be.
originally posted by: amazing
When the hunger games came it, it was the hot thing. Batman was the hot thing. People wanted to see them both the same. Why does Christian Bale get paid $25 Million more if Jennifer Lawrence brings in $500 more?