The wage gap

a reply to: amazing

My wife, makes less than her co workers despite more experience and doing better work. They get paid more, merely because they're men. She left, a few months later they begged her to come back for a $20,000 raise. She still makes less but it's at least tolerable now. 

If you can prove the reasons for that are based on gender, you have a legitimate lawsuit on your hands. Because there are laws against that.

Next Jennifer Lawrence. She makes less per movie than her male counterparts. That's just a fact. 

You're using a specific example to prove the existence of "systematic oppression"

And even taking that as fact, I would like proof that the reasons are based on gender alone.

Third is the United States Women's soccer team. Despite winning and winning and winning and generating millions in revenue for the US soccer programs, they make an embarressing amount less than the men, who do not win. 

Lol. Soccer is boring. Women's soccer is ten times as boring. As can be determined by the ratings. Which also determines the pay of the athletes.

Not every female gets paid less, but the wage gap is a real thing

Still asking for proof.

a reply to: ScepticScot

I meant in the United States. The rest of the world has a way to go, but here in the states, and most of the western world, women have 100% absolute equal rights under the law. Actually, women have advantages over men in many instances.

Your race has nothing to do with towing the regressive party line. I would go as far as saying the majority of the leftists that believe that all straight white males are racist sexist predators are actually just white people themselves.

I love that you mention discrimination as a subconscious act. I don't think that you even realize that your verbiage comes off in a manner that clearly points to your political and social leanings. I am going to make an educated guess about you, please indulge me here and let me know if I am wrong or right.
1. You supported Obama
2. Registered democrat. (if you are from the USA)
3. You watch the young turks on youtube.
4. You are most likely a Bernie supporter, but you would settle for Clinto.
5. You think Trump is racist.
6. You believe in "white privilege"
7. You think there is a problem with Islamaphobia in the world.

Let me know how right I am.

a reply to: rockintitz

I gave you three examples. Soccer is the most popular sport in the world for a reason. It's exciting. You might not think so but who are you against Billions of rabid fans. The Women's soccer team is amazing. Sorry you dont' think so but they generate a lot of money and get paid pennies compared to the mens team. That's systematic.

I bring up Jennifer Lawrence but most women in movies get paid less then male stars. The Hunger games movies made about $2,959,967,14 and The actress was reportedly paid $1m for The Hunger Games, $10m for The Hunger Games: Catching Fire and $15m for Mockingjay – Part One and Two.

Christian Bales batman movies made $2,463,716,216 for his three movies he got paid The Dark Knight Rises $15,000,000
The Dark Knight $10,000,000 +$20,000,000 bonus Batman Begin $9,000,000

That's just one example...it's usually way worse for other women actors not of Jennifer lawrence stature. Jennifer Lawrence's movies made about $500 million more than Bales ,she got paid $26 million and bale got paid $54 million That's standard hollywood gender pay gap.

My wife's is my real life experience. Millions of women in the US have the same experience, they can't all be wrong.

The real questions is not that this exists or doesn't exist but why would you pay a woman less than a man.

The second question is, why don't you like Soccer? LOL

Here's an example, local to me;

One source

On April 13, 1999, the United States district court ordered the grocery company to pay $6.2 million in what was one of the largest sex discrimination awards in Eastern Washington history.[6] Only a month later, it was discovered that Tidyman's did not have employment liability insurance when lawsuit was filed and the future of the retailer was in jeopardy.[6] Tidyman's had later purchased the insurance in 1997 but it was unable to help the retailer through the lawsuit.[6]

Another source

But in 1999, the company lost a sexual discrimination lawsuit filed by two former employees who said that Tidyman’s paid them less than their male counterparts and denied them promotions because they were female.

originally posted by: amazing
a reply to: rockintitz

I gave you three examples. Soccer is the most popular sport in the world for a reason. It's exciting. You might not think so but who are you against Billions of rabid fans. The Women's soccer team is amazing. Sorry you dont' think so but they generate a lot of money and get paid pennies compared to the mens team. That's systematic.

I bring up Jennifer Lawrence but most women in movies get paid less then male stars. The Hunger games movies made about $2,959,967,14 and The actress was reportedly paid $1m for The Hunger Games, $10m for The Hunger Games: Catching Fire and $15m for Mockingjay – Part One and Two.

Christian Bales batman movies made $2,463,716,216 for his three movies he got paid The Dark Knight Rises $15,000,000
The Dark Knight $10,000,000 +$20,000,000 bonus Batman Begin $9,000,000

That's just one example...it's usually way worse for other women actors not of Jennifer lawrence stature. Jennifer Lawrence's movies made about $500 million more than Bales ,she got paid $26 million and bale got paid $54 million That's standard hollywood gender pay gap.

My wife's is my real life experience. Millions of women in the US have the same experience, they can't all be wrong.

The real questions is not that this exists or doesn't exist but why would you pay a woman less than a man.

The second question is, why don't you like Soccer? LOL

The real questions is not that this exists or doesn't exist but why would you pay a woman less than a man.
Exactly, though I believe it exists.

Female wrestlers apparently too,

@StephMcMahon And yet they receive a fraction of the wages & screen time of the majority of the male roster. #UseYourVoice

[url=https://www.buzzfeed.com/norbertobriceno/wrestler-criticizes-wwe-executive-over-unfair-pay-of-female?utm_term=.sm7dm6Ax6z#.boO3RKW0Kq]Source[/url ]

a reply to: amazing

Those were specific examples. Once again, I am talking about the wage gap overall.

Otherwise I could use specific examples to prove that men are underpaid compared to women.

a reply to: dreamingawake

The real questions is not that this exists or doesn't exist but why would you pay a woman less than a man. 
Exactly, though I believe it exists. 

Based on what? Faith?

I have yet to hear any statistical analysis that proves it.

a reply to: amazing

You might be the victim of brainwashing.

As I said before, extraneous variables can account for your examples rather easily. But I will just examine the movie one below:

Who was a more renowned actor before those movies were made? What was the overall budget of the movie? What about additional revenue generated from DVD/blue ray/merchandising as a result of the movie's release etc.?

As others have stated, if you can provide evidence that gender alone is the reason for the alleged disparity of pay between the sexes, then I will have to re-evaluate my currently held views and concede that I am wrong on this issue. I am yet to see one credible piece of evidence that suggests women are paid less than men due alone to their gender.

a reply to: Winstonian

They may have equal protection under the law but that doesn't mean there isn't still discrimination. Laws against discrimination where enacted for a reason and society and culture does not just change instantly.

Again you seem to have this strange view that that everything must be an absolute, either there is no discrimination or all men are evil. Don't you think the reality is a bit more complicated that that?

Discrimination is nothing to do with left/right politics. Yet again you are looking at things in a vastly oversimplified viewpoint.

I don't think I have ever met anyone that believes all men are racist sexist predators. I very much doubt you have either but I suspect you watch lots of a certain type of talk show that tells you that 'leftists' think like that ( see I can generalise as well, isn't that fun).

Oh and in answer to you questions

1. Not American.
2. Not American.
3. No idea who they are.
4. Not American (but if was wouldn't vote Clinton).
5. Don't think he is personally racist but think some of his polices are.
6. Yes along with a lot of other privileges.
7. Yes, along with a lot of other forms of discrimination.

originally posted by: rockintitz
a reply to: amazing

Those were specific examples. Once again, I am talking about the wage gap overall.

Otherwise I could use specific examples to prove that men are underpaid compared to women.

All you've got to do is google it studies and statistics everywhere. Here's a quote from the white house.

"According to the White House, full-time working women earn 77% of what their male counterparts earn. This means that women have to work approximately 60 extra days, or about three months, to earn what men did by the end of the previous year..."

But the Pew Research group shows a smaller pay gap...and I quote "...But for young women, the wage gap is even smaller – at 93 percent – meaning they caught up to their same-aged male counterparts by roughly the last week in January of this year...."

That statistic is pretty hard and truthful. There is a pay gap, many studies and surveys and research prove it. It varies by profession and location and company though. It's not a conspiracy. It's just the truth, that if you're a woman, you'll probably be paid less than a man for the same job.

originally posted by: Dark Ghost
a reply to: amazing

You might be the victim of brainwashing.

As I said before, extraneous variables can account for your examples rather easily. But I will just examine the movie one below:

Who was a more renowned actor before those movies were made? What was the overall budget of the movie? What about additional revenue generated from DVD/blue ray/merchandising as a result of the movie's release etc.?

As others have stated, if you can provide evidence that gender alone is the reason for the alleged disparity of pay between the sexes, then I will have to re-evaluate my currently held views and concede that I am wrong on this issue. I am yet to see one credible piece of evidence that suggests women are paid less than men due alone to their gender.

It's all out there. If you just google it, you'll see all this evidence. Real surveys, real studies from big name universities like Stanford. Government data from actual census data. You can find examples everywhere. The US women's soccer team is a great example. They win world cups and their players are far more famous than the male counterparts, yet they get paid less.. why? It doesn't matter if you don't like soccer and it's not comparable to WNBA or nonsense like that.

The problem again, is that it's not everywhere, and it's a different pay gap depending location, company, industry etc. Millions of women and thousands of surveys and studies can't all be wrong. LOL

originally posted by: amazing
The problem again, is that it's not everywhere, and it's a different pay gap depending location, company, industry etc. Millions of women and thousands of surveys and studies can't all be wrong. LOL

Okay, I don' dispute that there are studies whose authors have concluded that a pay gap exists. What I dispute is that their conclusions accurately reflect that gender difference alone accounts for this disparity.

As others have stated, the following key arguments cannot be denied:

1) It is illegal (in Western countries at least) to pay somebody less due to their gender
2) Studies that conclude a wage gap is due to gender alone do not take extraneous variables that are very likely to interfere with the integrity of the study into account
3) There are strong political motivations to find that a wage gap does exist instead of looking at the topic objectively

These arguments are grounds alone for critical thinkers to ask themselves: is gender the reason there is pay disparity, or is this the narrative I am being told to accept?

originally posted by: Dark Ghost

originally posted by: amazing
The problem again, is that it's not everywhere, and it's a different pay gap depending location, company, industry etc. Millions of women and thousands of surveys and studies can't all be wrong. LOL

Okay, I don' dispute that there are studies whose authors have concluded that a pay gap exists. What I dispute is that their conclusions accurately reflect that gender difference alone accounts for this disparity.

As others have stated, the following key arguments cannot be denied:

1) It is illegal (in Western countries at least) to pay somebody less due to their gender
2) Studies that conclude a wage gap is due to gender alone do not take extraneous variables that are very likely to interfere with the integrity of the study into account
3) There are strong political motivations to find that a wage gap does exist instead of looking at the topic objectively

These arguments are grounds alone for critical thinkers to ask themselves: is gender the reason there is pay disparity, or is this the narrative I am being told to accept?

But there are still things to discuss..

1) It is illegal (in Western countries at least) to pay somebody less due to their gender There are ways around that. I can hire 10 people for the same job and pay them all differently with no laws being violated. It's very hard to gain any legal traction with these types of claims. You can always say more experience, or education or certification or qualifications or location or tenure.
2) Studies that conclude a wage gap is due to gender alone do not take extraneous variables that are very likely to interfere with the integrity of the study into account. and yet many of these studies do take those extraneous variables int o consideration and into account.
3) There are strong political motivations to find that a wage gap does exist instead of looking at the topic objectively. True in some instances

Yet...despite this women still get paid less than men in an alarming amount of cases. How can you just dismiss it? And then claim that all of those women are lying or sour grapes. Why does Christian Bale deserve more money than Jennifer Lawrence? He doesn't. Why do the men's USA soccer team deserve more money than the women? They don't. Pay everyone equally.

In fact, instead of us arguing whether or not this gap exists or not, why don't we look for every instance where there is a gap, and just fix it?

originally posted by: amazing
But there are still things to discuss..

1) It is illegal (in Western countries at least) to pay somebody less due to their gender There are ways around that. I can hire 10 people for the same job and pay them all differently with no laws being violated. It's very hard to gain any legal traction with these types of claims. You can always say more experience, or education or certification or qualifications or location or tenure.

But if somebody does have more experience, education or certification, aren't they technically entitled to more pay than somebody lacking in those areas? If the subject in question believes the employer is lying, they can take the issue to an authority that deals with issues such as these. If the employer cannot back up their justification for paying person Y more than person X, they have a case on their hands.

The reason it's probably hard to get any legal traction for claims of discrimination based on gender is because that is not the actual reason for the disparity in pay.

2) Studies that conclude a wage gap is due to gender alone do not take extraneous variables that are very likely to interfere with the integrity of the study into account. and yet many of these studies do take those extraneous variables int o consideration and into account.

Hmm, not the ones I've seen or the examples you have shared so far.

3) There are strong political motivations to find that a wage gap does exist instead of looking at the topic objectively. True in some instances

Well, according to my research it is true in the majority of them. When you research a study, you should be mindful of who funds the research or who has a vested interest in promoting it. There isn't ALWAYS a conflict in interest, but usually that's the case.

Yet...despite this women still get paid less than men in an alarming amount of cases. How can you just dismiss it? And then claim that all of those women are lying or sour grapes.

I dismiss that they are being paid less due to their gender, and instead examine other variables which might explain why there is a disparity. IF none can be identified, then you have a point.

Why does Christian Bale deserve more money than Jennifer Lawrence? He doesn't.

Do you have the number of hours worked of each, number of days taken off by each during filming? Did you consider their compared fame levels before filming started?

Why do the men's USA soccer team deserve more money than the women? They don't. Pay everyone equally.

Do the men and women's teams train for the same duration and play the same number of matches per calendar year, bring in the same revenue flow, have the same audience demand, devote the same time to promoting and participating in the game?

These are relevant questions which should be answered by any critical thinker before jumping to the "it's because of their sex" explanation.

In fact, instead of us arguing whether or not this gap exists or not, why don't we look for every instance where there is a gap, and just fix it?

Using that logic, if I am a retail assistant, I can demand equal pay with somebody that works longer hours, gets more work done in the same duration as me, makes more sales and brings in more customers than me, and takes less time off work than me.

All in the name of equality, right? Do you think a business will end up successful or a failure with such an approach?

originally posted by: Dark Ghost

originally posted by: amazing
But there are still things to discuss..

1) It is illegal (in Western countries at least) to pay somebody less due to their gender There are ways around that. I can hire 10 people for the same job and pay them all differently with no laws being violated. It's very hard to gain any legal traction with these types of claims. You can always say more experience, or education or certification or qualifications or location or tenure.

But if somebody does have more experience, education or certification, aren't they technically entitled to more pay than somebody lacking in those areas? If the subject in question believes the employer is lying, they can take the issue to an authority that deals with issues such as these. If the employer cannot back up their justification for paying person Y more than person X, they have a case on their hands.

The reason it's probably hard to get any legal traction for claims of discrimination based on gender is because that is not the actual reason for the disparity in pay.

2) Studies that conclude a wage gap is due to gender alone do not take extraneous variables that are very likely to interfere with the integrity of the study into account. and yet many of these studies do take those extraneous variables int o consideration and into account.

Hmm, not the ones I've seen or the examples you have shared so far.

3) There are strong political motivations to find that a wage gap does exist instead of looking at the topic objectively. True in some instances

Well, according to my research it is true in the majority of them. When you research a study, you should be mindful of who funds the research or who has a vested interest in promoting it. There isn't ALWAYS a conflict in interest, but usually that's the case.

Yet...despite this women still get paid less than men in an alarming amount of cases. How can you just dismiss it? And then claim that all of those women are lying or sour grapes.

I dismiss that they are being paid less due to their gender, and instead examine other variables which might explain why there is a disparity. IF none can be identified, then you have a point.

Why does Christian Bale deserve more money than Jennifer Lawrence? He doesn't.

Do you have the number of hours worked of each, number of days taken off by each during filming? Did you consider their compared fame levels before filming started?

Why do the men's USA soccer team deserve more money than the women? They don't. Pay everyone equally.

Do the men and women's teams train for the same duration and play the same number of matches per calendar year, bring in the same revenue flow, have the same audience demand, devote the same time to promoting and participating in the game?

These are relevant questions which should be answered by any critical thinker before jumping to the "it's because of their sex" explanation.

In fact, instead of us arguing whether or not this gap exists or not, why don't we look for every instance where there is a gap, and just fix it?

Using that logic, if I am a retail assistant, I can demand equal pay with somebody that works longer hours, gets more work done in the same duration as me, makes more sales and brings in more customers than me, and takes less time off work than me.

All in the name of equality, right? Do you think a business will end up successful or a failure with such an approach?

I don't know how to do the cool multi quote thing, so please forgive my crude format response. LOL

With regard to actors and actresses. Jennifer Lawrence is a good example She made more money than Christian Bale, by about $500 Million and got paid about $25 Million less with the extra work, being a whole extra movie. That's just one example. She worked more, made more money, is a better actress (debatable) and got paid less. That's a classic example.

Men's/women's soccer. Women have won 3 world cups or maybe more, all they do is win, they bring in millions of extra revenue just by virtue of winning so many games, advancing to semi-finals, finals and championship matches. They even have more endorsements and and exposure. Let's see, they're better, they work more and they make the US more money and get paid less than the men. That's another classic example.

Back do your work example and why people get paid less, than others. It's complicated. So if two people have similar but different experience even though it's roughly the same. They can be paid differently. No lawsuit. If two people have similur tenure but different say 6 months, you can pay the guy that has six months more experience more, even if his job quality is less. But what is that difference worth? How do you calculate it? You could argue the specifics in front of the supreme court and not get a good decision.

At the end when I said find it and fix it, you gave me a ludicrous example. I mean the real examples, like women's soccer. They should be paid more. It's all there in black and white...not just equal but more. Jennifer lawrence should be paid as much as Christian Bale. If you find a woman and man and both are exactly the same in quality, experience and everything else pay them the same. simple.

I'll take it a step further. In business the only thing that matters is results. If two people bring in the same results, they should be paid the same regardless of experience, education or anything else. Results are all that matter.

originally posted by: Dark Ghost
But if somebody does have more experience, education or certification, aren't they technically entitled to more pay than somebody lacking in those areas? If the subject in question believes the employer is lying, they can take the issue to an authority that deals with issues such as these. If the employer cannot back up their justification for paying person Y more than person X, they have a case on their hands.

It's due to the free market, everything is subjective. I knew 3 guys at a company in LA, after a couple years of working together they finally discussed their salaries. One was 133k, one was 110k, one was 75k. Same position, same experience, comparable education, same company. It all came down to how aggressive they were about asking for more money, defending themselves in raises, and asking for initial salary.

What people are paid is all a game, it's not about your abilities, it's about what you get your employer to agree to.

One possible reason for a pay gap is that women in general are less aggressive and as a result don't self advocate enough, for example the dunning kruger effect is more common in women which can lead to someone who is capable not fighting for a higher salary.

originally posted by: amazing
With regard to actors and actresses. Jennifer Lawrence is a good example She made more money than Christian Bale, by about $500 Million and got paid about $25 Million less with the extra work, being a whole extra movie. That's just one example. She worked more, made more money, is a better actress (debatable) and got paid less. That's a classic example.

Hmm, did Lawrence make more money in virtue of her participation, or did the movie of which she was apart of make more money than Bale's movie did? BIG DIFFERENCE.

Again, do you have evidence she worked more hours on set than him? Who the better actor is doesn't matter, it's who the potential audience are willing to pay more to see that counts.

Men's/women's soccer. Women have won 3 world cups or maybe more, all they do is win, they bring in millions of extra revenue just by virtue of winning so many games, advancing to semi-finals, finals and championship matches. They even have more endorsements and and exposure. Let's see, they're better, they work more and they make the US more money and get paid less than the men. That's another classic example.

No offence, but that paragraph is a logical mess. You should read that again and see if your arguments make sense or not.

Back do your work example and why people get paid less, than others. It's complicated. So if two people have similar but different experience even though it's roughly the same. They can be paid differently. No lawsuit. If two people have similur tenure but different say 6 months, you can pay the guy that has six months more experience more, even if his job quality is less. But what is that difference worth? How do you calculate it? You could argue the specifics in front of the supreme court and not get a good decision.

If there is no evidence, there should be no case.

At the end when I said find it and fix it, you gave me a ludicrous example. I mean the real examples, like women's soccer. They should be paid more. It's all there in black and white...not just equal but more. Jennifer lawrence should be paid as much as Christian Bale. If you find a woman and man and both are exactly the same in quality, experience and everything else pay them the same.

Why don't you demonstrate that the women's soccer team are underpaid for the work they do relative to the tournaments they participate in? Why the need to compare them to the men's team, acting as though EVERY factor is the same except the genders. That is your biggest error.

Your last sentence is essentially what I have been saying since my first reply.

I'll take it a step further. In business the only thing that matters is results. If two people bring in the same results, they should be paid the same regardless of experience, education or anything else. Results are all that matter.

Agreed. But can you compare the results of a secretary with the results of a CEO in terms of raw money earned? NO YOU CAN'T! There are obvious variables you need to take into account before you can do so. Which has been my key argument from the beginning...

PS: For formatting, it takes practice, but just put a [quote] at the beginning of where my texts starts and a [/quote] where my text ends. Your own new text for the reply should NOT be enclosed in those tags; only what you want to be appear as quoted should be.

originally posted by: Dark Ghost

originally posted by: amazing
With regard to actors and actresses. Jennifer Lawrence is a good example She made more money than Christian Bale, by about $500 Million and got paid about $25 Million less with the extra work, being a whole extra movie. That's just one example. She worked more, made more money, is a better actress (debatable) and got paid less. That's a classic example.

Hmm, did Lawrence make more money in virtue of her participation, or did the movie of which she was apart of make more money than Bale's movie did? BIG DIFFERENCE.

Again, do you have evidence she worked more hours on set than him? Who the better actor is doesn't matter, it's who the potential audience are willing to pay more to see that counts.

Men's/women's soccer. Women have won 3 world cups or maybe more, all they do is win, they bring in millions of extra revenue just by virtue of winning so many games, advancing to semi-finals, finals and championship matches. They even have more endorsements and and exposure. Let's see, they're better, they work more and they make the US more money and get paid less than the men. That's another classic example.

No offence, but that paragraph is a logical mess. You should read that again and see if your arguments make sense or not.

Back do your work example and why people get paid less, than others. It's complicated. So if two people have similar but different experience even though it's roughly the same. They can be paid differently. No lawsuit. If two people have similur tenure but different say 6 months, you can pay the guy that has six months more experience more, even if his job quality is less. But what is that difference worth? How do you calculate it? You could argue the specifics in front of the supreme court and not get a good decision.

If there is no evidence, there should be no case.

At the end when I said find it and fix it, you gave me a ludicrous example. I mean the real examples, like women's soccer. They should be paid more. It's all there in black and white...not just equal but more. Jennifer lawrence should be paid as much as Christian Bale. If you find a woman and man and both are exactly the same in quality, experience and everything else pay them the same.

Why don't you demonstrate that the women's soccer team are underpaid for the work they do relative to the tournaments they participate in? Why the need to compare them to the men's team, acting as though EVERY factor is the same except the genders. That is your biggest error.

Your last sentence is essentially what I have been saying since my first reply.

I'll take it a step further. In business the only thing that matters is results. If two people bring in the same results, they should be paid the same regardless of experience, education or anything else. Results are all that matter.

Agreed. But can you compare the results of a secretary with the results of a CEO in terms of raw money earned? NO YOU CAN'T! There are obvious variables you need to take into account before you can do so. Which has been my key argument from the beginning...

PS: For formatting, it takes practice, but just put a [quote] at the beginning of where my texts starts and a [/quote] where my text ends. Your own new text for the reply should NOT be enclosed in those tags; only what you want to be appear as quoted should be.

Thanks mate! I'll work on that.

back on track. you're last example. Of course a secretary shouldn't make as much as a CEO. But a male secretary and a female secretary should be paid the same. A female CEO and a Male CEO should be paid the same.

When the hunger games came it, it was the hot thing. Batman was the hot thing. People wanted to see them both the same. Why does Christian Bale get paid $25 Million more if Jennifer Lawrence brings in $500 more?

Women's soccer...they do work more and bring in more revenue. The men get paid more. Not like a few thousand more but hundreds of thousands more, just to lose.

originally posted by: amazing
When the hunger games came it, it was the hot thing. Batman was the hot thing. People wanted to see them both the same. Why does Christian Bale get paid $25 Million more if Jennifer Lawrence brings in $500 more?

Hollywood pay is a function of 'what have you done for me now?".

When Hunger Games came out, Lawrence was still a Hollywood 'nobody'. She had done one major film, and nobody knew whether or not her fame would flicker or progress on.

Christian Bale was already established, and had commanded some large salaries before Batman.

I find it funny how you have yet to mention how much Ms. Lawrence was overpaid in the remaining Hunger Games movies...in relation to her male counterparts. Granted, I find it kind of funny that Ms. Lawrence hasn't had anything to say about that either.

That all being sad, la-la land is the worst place to get 'wage gap' evidence from. Their entire 'pricing system' is so screwed up, that it is borderline criminal.