voodoo, nocebo and the placebo effect, are they indications of "the law of attraction"?

First of i started this thread last night then lost an 1hr and a halfs worth of work
So this post will be short and to the point with a load of links on the subject matter,
my first hand experience of the nocebo effect was when i was in primary school and i
used to pretend to be ill to have a day off now and again, yet most of the time the
symptoms would actually develop and i would get ill. Just recently i had to go to the
doctors to re-register as the had taken me off there books as i hadn't been in 18 years,
when i was 18 (chest infection). It was because of that chest infection that made me
think more of how i could make myself ill and i wondered why i had developed this illness,
anyway i cant remember if i did find that cause, but it did make me have instinctive
"positive affirmations" from then on, this was before i new about the LOA and had read
books on it. Thoughts have energy, energy cant be destroyed or created, only transformed.
that's a basic principle of science. There is so much we dont know about the human body and
mind, or even the magnetic field that emits from everyone of our bodes, that disregarding
anything is just wrong, every avenue should be explored, no matter how
outrageous it may seem. But things put in place like the scientific method doesnt allow us to
test things that cant be measured, which to me is a major hindrance and the reason as to why
things like the placebo effect are "unexplained"


i would love to hear other peoples thoughts on this, Thanks.

en.wikipedia.org...
www.psychologytoday.com...
psmag.com...
www.psychologytoday.com...
www.collective-evolution.com...
www.collective-evolution.com...

a reply to: Davg80

Mind over matter comes to mind...

DNA memory, thought projection, intuition, sixth sense etc.

Whenever I hear anyone talk in the definitive that these things don't exists due to scientific inability to prove such things are real, I always question. Maybe we haven't yet develop the right scientific methodology to not only prove their existence and viability but also how to exploit them.

Interesting premise.

Sorry about the loss of your previous work, I personally know how frustrating that can be, Been there, done that.

a reply to: Davg80

Our thoughts are the driving force of creation within this realm.

When our thoughts are untamed they are like a wild animal, as we develop we learn to tame the animal to a certain extent however when we are left ignorant of the power of thought, it can create cycles that run our lives from a habitual mindset as opposed to our conscious direction of them.

The placebo effect truly is a case and point when it comes to the effects of the mind on our physiological being. We have barely scratched the surface of our innate power.

There are those in the esoteric realm who have understood ancient methods of causing change in the physical world through their intentions and rituals. Sadly they have used this power in the dark arts and it has caused the worst aspects of humanity to thrive, which has been their intention.

We are currently seeing a revival of sorts and more people are coming back to their spiritual nature and power, as people throw off the shackles of fear and take the time to experience aspects of their consciousness previously explained away as unconscious we will see much balance returned!

First, thoughts don't "have energy". Especially not a 'new age' definition of energy, since they really don't have one, but love to toss the term around.

Syncretism between physics and new age doesn't really work, because pretty much any new age concept is woo. So, trying to take the new age usage of the term 'energy' and conflate it with the first law of thermodynamics as some sort of proof of woo is shaky at best.

This is similar to the woo syncretion wherein people claim souls have energy (a double woo), and therefore according to the first law of thermodynamics cannot be created or destroyed, and therefore "we are immortal!!".

Doesn't work.

In order to use the term 'energy' with the first law of thermo, you have to use the physics version of 'energy'.

There also isn't any scientific basis for the 'law of attraction', which seems to be little more than confirmation bias on steroids. Not that there's anything wrong with that. Getting your mind right is often a good starting point for any task, and if writing your goals over and over helps you do that, great. But don't think the universe notices. It doesn't.

yes the "right scientific methodology" may well be to introduce a method that can use the "esoteric realm" to test so called
unmeasurable phenomenon. And we may use these things in the near to distant future to prove, measure and use to our own advantage, i have always been interested in things like the paranormal and tried to meditate to have an OBE when i was about 15 after reading a book called "forbiddenknowledge" that had that bamphomet dude on the front,(my mum got it for me out a charity shop).On trying it, i remember feeling as if it was happening then getting scared and thinking what if i cant get back lol, and never done it again, but i love to hear of people that can do this sort of thing and have vivid memories of it, it fascinates me.

originally posted by: Davg80
i
used to pretend to be ill to have a day off now and again, yet most of the time the
symptoms would actually develop and i would get ill.

That would tend to happen if you do something that makes you ill during your day off - partying, interacting with alot of people and germs, etc.

Thoughts have energy, energy cant be destroyed or created, only transformed.
that's a basic principle of science.

Transformed, yes - into other forms of energy. This is what is meant by "energy transformation":

There is so much we dont know about the human body and
mind, or even the magnetic field that emits from everyone of our bodes

Actually we know about bodily magnetic fields, and scientists do measure it - it's the whole point of magnetoencephalography. Nothing mysterious about it.

a reply to: Davg80

is there any evidence that alledged " voodoo " has any effect when its alledged victim is unaware of it ?

a reply to: Bedlam

i dont think we can make assumptions like that about a field of study that has barely been scratched.
are electrical impulses energy and does our magnetic field interact with the earths, these are things we dont know the answer to.


www.quora.com...
"Perhaps the larger question, though, is how does conscious thought arise from the electrical signaling that occurs between neurons?
This question does not have a simple answer, since the brain is extraordinarily complex and is still being investigated by neuroscientists."

a reply to: ignorant_ape

all the instance i have found have been reliant on the person knowing of the "curse" for it to take effect.
a typical case of "you brought it on yourself"



this article has a more in depth look at it from the BBC

www.bbc.com...

originally posted by: Bedlam
But don't think the universe notices. It doesn't.

What an interesting statement.

This is going to make your eyes roll, im sure....but im not even sure the universe exists. Or, perhaps, that the universe only exists from the perspective of me observing "it".

In a subjective universe, the universe would care intrinsically about what you are thinking. In an objective universe, it would be utterly unconcerned.

I guess what I am getting at is: study of consciousness is so much in its infancy that there really cannot be any statements made with absolute authority. Even if it sounds "woo". Because Lord knows "spooky action at a distance" is pretty woo, too. Even if its a woo we call "science".

a reply to: Davg80

Im a firm believe in the law of attraction. I need to keep imagining myself with lots of money and living on the beach. I have already attained one of my goals unexpectedly. I really do not want to ask for too much more but dang...it seems to work perfectly.

originally posted by: SLAYER69
a reply to: Davg80

Mind over matter comes to mind...

DNA memory, thought projection, intuition, sixth sense etc.

Whenever I hear anyone talk in the definitive that these things don't exists due to scientific inability to prove such things are real, I always question. Maybe we haven't yet develop the right scientific methodology to not only prove their existence and viability but also how to exploit them.

Interesting premise.

Sorry about the loss of your previous work, I personally know how frustrating that can be, Been there, done that.

DNA memory is a real, verified fact. Now thought protection and other sixth senses just don't have a carrier. There is no way to transfer the information. Intuition, I think is a mixture of deductive reasoning and lucky guesses. Same with predictive dreaming...when you have 7 billion people on the planet, who all dream every night. Then of course some are gonna get it right.

Now your brain being able to heal you or make you sick is a entirely different animal.

If I'm right a large percentage of medications we take just trick the brain into doing something it could have done anyway. Such as releasing a chemical to counteract some condition....AND now that I think about it. A large percentage of illness are your own immune system attacking itself! It is kinda an alergic reaction.

So yea I think we do have the capacity to controls our bodies functions to a superhuman degree.....but until we can colonize space, we don't need to be extending people's lives too far.

originally posted by: Davg80
a reply to: Bedlam

i dont think we can make assumptions like that about a field of study that has barely been scratched.
are electrical impulses energy and does our magnetic field interact with the earths, these are things we dont know the answer to.

Nerves have electrical impulses associated with them, but do not conduct electricity like a wire. Thoughts are structured aggregates of large numbers of neuronal activity. There's not an impulse you can point to and say 'there's Dave thinking about his dog's left ear'. And yes, there's some electrical noise involved in the neural operation, but it's like crowd noise at a stadium - it goes with the game but isn't the game.

And yes, WE know the answer. You would too, all you need's an undergrad in physics with some biology. You'd know all about whether an electrical impulse HAS energy associated with it. And by Fields II, you'd have a lot more of a clue about magnetic fields. Although that's a lifetime's work.

But no, you can't put a thought through a calorimeter and say how much energy is there, and since it's energy it can't be destroyed yada yada. What you don't get from reading Chopra is that the energy doesn't have to have any structure to it. The energy involved in Heifetz playing his very best performance of Intermezzo lives on as random unmeasureable heat energy. But not as a musical performance wafting about in the Earth's magnetic field.

www.quora.com...
"Perhaps the larger question, though, is how does conscious thought arise from the electrical signaling that occurs between neurons?
This question does not have a simple answer, since the brain is extraordinarily complex and is still being investigated by neuroscientists."

Quora and Answers are easily among the two worst sources ever, down there with biblioteclyapades and educateyourself, but even they agree with me, although you're not reading it that way. Not only do neurons not act like wires, but thoughts are not some single impulse. And after they're gone, only heat remains. Not the original thought. But "thought" doesn't have "energy", in the way that New Agers think ideas can have "positive and negative energy". And that's where, I think, you are trying to drag the NA concept across into physics. And it won't fit.

The First Law doesn't mean that things transform into lovely butterflies or 'ascend' to 'higher realms' or any of that. Just that energy can't be destroyed. That doesn't mean it doesn't end up as random unstructured heat. Which most of it does.

originally posted by: bigfatfurrytexan
In a subjective universe, the universe would care intrinsically about what you are thinking. In an objective universe, it would be utterly unconcerned.

Except that you can set up little experiments and discover that it doesn't. A million affirmations won't cause you to roll fifty consecutive snake eyes on a set of unrigged dice.

I guess what I am getting at is: study of consciousness is so much in its infancy that there really cannot be any statements made with absolute authority. Even if it sounds "woo". Because Lord knows "spooky action at a distance" is pretty woo, too. Even if its a woo we call "science".

SAAD is repeatable, instrumentable, provable. You might not understand why that's happening in fine detail, but it happens, and you can see it is so.

Writing down "I want a new Corvette" until your hand cramps isn't going to move the universe to provide you with one. And that's the sort of thing "the law of attraction" pushes.

If you intentionally adopt a better attitude, and you watch to see if others do too, then you are guaranteed to see it, but it's not by 'the law of attraction' or the Universe wanting to provide you with happiness. It's because people are nicer to you when you're nicer to them. And you notice it more because you're looking for it. That's the law of confirmation bias, not the law of attraction. It's related to the 11:11 effect. It's not changing. But you notice it because it looks unusual, and you don't notice the ones that aren't repeats. It's more a flaw of human memory than it is the universe giving you a signal.

a reply to: Bedlam

we cant measure dark energy but we know its there, in fact it could be all around us but we cant find it, we know nothing of it, i have no proof that the LOA works, i know that if you think about a corvette though thats not gonna get you a corvette, thats nonsense after all my true self has no interest in materialistic gains, us silly humans have thought we have been at the pinnacle of our existence since time immemorial..... ohhh fire.....oh our world is flat....... ohh jebus fed 5000 men with one fish....... ohhh the moon is made of cheese, science is forever changing views on things they thought were fact or such and we will forever be doing that as we are evolving constantly, im not saying it as fact, but i will keep thinking the way i do as it keeps me healthy if nothing else, the placebo and nocebo effect are scientifically proven theories, we can measure that they make a difference in respondents who are receiving them. so whats your theory on why the things mentioned in the OP appear to work?