Muhamed was a child molester.

a reply to: Annee

Really interesting

Even if she was six, child bride does not automatically mean there was sex with a child. Marriage was often about property, uniting clans, blah, blah, blah...

Some saw marrying as many women as you could afford to take care of as a good thing - for the women. Even for society in general

Weird how everyone assumes the worst

Unless someone was actually there to witness the event, it's all hearsay as far as I'm concerned

The fact that we're even arguing about it now is just bizarre

How about a so called god that could create or do anything the entire universe of everything to some, needing to rape a virgin bride to incarnate on earth to see what humanity is like for itself?

People used to create gods out of things they didnt understand as metaphors to teach with so people could adapt easier because life was among the beasts of the fields. In some places life still is that way... just think of the cargo cults of tese benevolent beings coming out to survey and shared all these marvelous things called supplies really. Then flew off and for decades the people made wooden planes hoping to entice the visitors back.

Those not sharing the same conceptual understandings they were taught with others puts them basically in a whole other conceptual reality. Meaning custom and culture and ideas, belief, and reality to their minds is going to be different. This is where the ideas of eugenics and assimilation came about in an ignorance thinking people did not or do not have the capacity to grasp any concepts to grow or learn like anyone else.

When obviously they can... why? Because we are all human and have the ability to not only learn but unlearn. Through wisdom of the past we can see a better way towards the future... but if there really wasnt any wisdom in what was seen? Such as child abuse... because it cuts off their growth potiential, cuts their life short and casts them a lot where if they were an adult? They likely wouldnt choose it. Without a choice it is obviously oppression, but in the cultiures that perpetuate all of it because their chosen diefication can do no wrong are simply blind followers, because all the concepts are carried along...

The teachings of the quran have nothing to do with the path the man himself walked... what they talked however is what are called teachings, pointings at concepts that might benefit themselves and others. No benefit to oneself or others? Leave it buried with the person. Emulation of the person trying to embody them instead of following the directions of their chosen faith or belief system is an error. Because that is no short cut to actually embodying the path itself. Only when one takes the pointing do they arrive. Immitation is supposed to be flattery but its still immitation not the real thing. This is called mistaking the finger for the moon in another historical belief system.

One has to walk according to the pointing, not as the man or so called god did.

Of course, life is something people must cope with death is easy nothing to cope with there unless youre mourning someone lost. Ive used the phrase judgeing a phoenix by its ashes several times... and its people grasping ashes and thinking it the phoenix... if I cupped a pile of poop is that you? Even though we are what we eat?.. no it is a cast off. Judging people by their past does not allow opportunity for growth, like at a concert and people expecting a band to play all their old stuff. Through observation though, we can tell if people have chhanged or not... if they did bad in the past and havent changed through observation? Then there is no phoenix there, just someone still being consumed by an old tired brand of nonsense.

Anyone practicing old tired brands of nonsense in a justification of, god did it, jesus, did it, mohammad did it, or anyone else including your next door neighbor doing it... is not an excuse for you to do it, nor is religion base to be safe against what society has over time seen to be harmful to ones being, development, and personal growth... as many are like gods law or some ancient books laws supercede what has come to be realized as a detriment to human growth, happiness and well being in modern society.

Clinging is bad mmmkay? And there was a philosophical system around before all Abrahamic religions pointing directly to that. Grasping leads to clinging, if that grasping doesnt really benefit anyone and instead becomes an excuse for doing? Still wrong and in error... if society changes and you dont? Clinging still wrong and in error. te same philosophical system not only had monastic rules, it had householder rules for its adherants, as well as a path that could be walked no matter what society the person found themselves in to avoid any local, tribal, or what have you law or customs... separate from those walking its main path called the 4 truths, called the 8 fold path. That 8 fold path is just that ethics of living by any standard of law one wandering around the wide open world one may find themselves in and avoid problems.

But concepts is the issue, all of it is concept... and when a host society says hey youre the guest? Adapt learn grow but the understanding you bring from your culture to others should also echo back as an emmisary to eco back to ones own... this just in they havent killed me yet as a refugee, so not as evil as thought, they also gave me medical care... or is it let me just drag my cultural concepts to this new place that obviously didnt or doesnt work there...or I wouldnt of had to flee the place to begin with. Doing so and thinking those concepts superior is delusional. That does not mean there arent things special to that culture that cant be shared and appreciated like art or food... whenever one finds themselves in a land or country not ones own... like it or not you are a diplomatic represenative of that country or land from which you hail.

If there are plans of permanent settlment in the new land or country, there is a saying... do as the romans do, that derived from rome being a center of trade in the ancient world and if people didnt do as the romans did in a monkey see monkey do fashion? They would be subjected to roman law because hey when in rome... youre in rome, not where ever it is you were coming from. Of course modern day. Same thing, but one does so out of respect and to avoid creating issues for temselves or others... especially when in countries that have more or less freedoms than others do. If a country was kind enough to open its arms and embrace you? Embrace it back, and if there is someting that benefits it that you can bring to the table?

Then there is your livelyhood for survival and growth as one adapts to the host culture and one ceases to be a guest and then becomes a citizen respected and no different than anyone else... other than perhaps an already percieved bias that had nothing personally to do with you., that someone else may have disrespected the host being a bad diplomat or example in the past. Not fair but generalities happen, so show them different. This isnt rocket science... and even if it was? Its just called the art of living and making sure you do it well no matter where one finds oneself... water is water to a duck it can float anywhere theres water.

What bothers me about the people who condemn Islam for the actions of some is that they cherry pick when a religion should be to blame.

Mohammad or any Muslim does something to a child, well all of Islam is sick and perverted. Priests or individuals from the Christian/Catholic faith do the same thing, well those are individuals who do not represent the faith.

If you search, you would see that marrying children was not strictly an Islamic problem but many religions still practice it and many religions at some point in their history have had child marriages.

Before some idiot comes along and says I am for child marriage or pedophilia, I'm not. I am saying stop claiming religious superiority when yours is no better than the one you hate.

I wish I could flag you for that statement!

If we're going to judge people (seems to me that's what this thread is about) then I guess I'm going to say I have a problem with people that go around looking to cause problems based on stuff that isn't affecting them directly

a reply to: Spiramirabilis

a reply to: chelsdh

I'll star you for wishing me a flag :-)

I understand that arguing is the biggest part of why we're here at ATS. I still think it's kinda funny how the same topics keep coming back again and again

The OP must think he's performing some kind of public service

It's exhausting

a reply to: Thetan

If your daughter gets raped by a Middle Eatsern man, you will be hurt and furious. And no amount of "his cultures considerations on the matter are different,"

What a bogus argument - but it is the key to this whole thread

I believe we've had more than enough of this crap at ATS - and you had to work very hard to pretend you weren't trying to say what you're saying

originally posted by: Spiramirabilis
a reply to: Annee

Really interesting

Even if she was six, child bride does not automatically mean there was sex with a child. Marriage was often about property, uniting clans, blah, blah, blah...

Some saw marrying as many women as you could afford to take care of as a good thing - for the women. Even for society in general

Weird how everyone assumes the worst

Unless someone was actually there to witness the event, it's all hearsay as far as I'm concerned

The fact that we're even arguing about it now is just bizarre

Yes, and here's another good article.

“A great misconception prevails as to the age at which Aisha was taken in marriage by the Prophet. Ibn Sa‘d has stated in the Tabaqat that when Abu Bakr [father of Aisha] was approached on behalf of the Holy Prophet, he replied that the girl had already been betrothed to Jubair, and that he would have to settle the matter first with him. This shows that Aisha must have been approaching majority at the time. Again, the Isaba, speaking of the Prophet’s daughter Fatima, says that she was born five years before the Call and was about five years older than Aisha. This shows that Aisha must have been about ten years at the time of her betrothal to the Prophet, and not six years as she is generally supposed to be. This is further borne out by the fact that Aisha herself is reported to have stated that when the chapter [of the Holy Quran] entitled The Moon, the fifty-fourth chapter, was revealed, she was a girl playing about and remembered certain verses then revealed. Now the fifty-fourth chapter was undoubtedly revealed before the sixth year of the Call. All these considerations point to but one conclusion, viz., that Aisha could not have been less than ten years of age at the time of her nikah, which was virtually only a betrothal. And there is one report in the Tabaqat that Aisha was nine years of age at the time of nikah. Again it is a fact admitted on all hands that the nikah of Aisha took place in the tenth year of the Call in the month of Shawwal, while there is also preponderance of evidence as to the consummation of her marriage taking place in the second year of Hijra in the same month, which shows that full five years had elapsed between the nikah and the consummation. Hence there is not the least doubt that Aisha was at least nine or ten years of age at the time of betrothal, and fourteen or fifteen years at the time of marriage.”

www.muslim.org...

a reply to: InhaleExhale

Probably all of them, but the differences are that I dont deify them and hang on their every quote as if from God.

Its all about credibility in leadership. LOL


Let go of the hate? I wouldn't call it hate, just a firm distaste for a culture that perpetuates child rape. Thanks though.

originally posted by: kaylaluv
a reply to: Annee

Doesn't sound like she was too traumatized to me...

No, it sure doesn't.

In many arranged marriages, there is also a mock ceremony... in the arranged marriages in India, the age at wich they are arranged or have a mock wedding or meeting is not when they actually come together in the marriage that was arranged.

Unless stated elsewhere, theres no real proof that that is when Mohammed actually took her as a wife, but thats just at the age when the marriage was arranged.

Not knowing is of course going to lead to all sorts of miscommunications... an investigation into when she bore children might reveal the time when the actual marriage took place if not mentioned elsewhere.

But the assumption that the age of the arrangment was when he actually took her as a bride in marriage is just that an assumption... without actually knowing? Speculation and not truth.

I dont know Islam well enough to know this myself, but I do know the marriage custom of arrangment well enough to know.. the arrangment or mock ceremony is a promise for a future time... and rarely is the actual time in which it occurs... as there are stipulations that must be met on both sides for the agreement to take place... even in christianity there once was the concept of a dowery. 3 more pigs or goats and you can have her... basically family slave trading out their children but children were not embraced as anything but a useful tool at the time, and many cultures still feel the same way, with cild labor to benefit their family...

so looking at what gets called 3rd world by 1st world standards is an obvious problem when it comes to the value of life and ethical standards. This is why western countries seek to help the people advance beyond stuff weve already been through, and know the suffering attached and the societies seeing the western world look to their leaders and teaching and say why dont we have tat even though we make it by the 100s for them every day? Then its a culture shock and cultural disparity... especially when tose entrenched in power in such places live without want... this is why it gets called oppression because theres no other mode of living or opportunity offered and unless the people force change or the leaders have a change of heart like the grinch? Things likely wont change.

The world is becoming more and more connected through the internet. Vocalizing human abuse may help them and eventually change minds.

Also, when you are born into a life of abuse and inequality, you are less likely to rebel or disagree.

It is our business about how others are treated. We are all human beings and it is retrogressive to turn away from injustice and unethical treatment out of "respect" for wacky cultural pratices.

a reply to: Thetan

Muhammad was engaged to a 6 year old and married her when she was 9 .

originally posted by: Jessie8802
a reply to: Thetan

Muhammad was engaged to a 6 year old and married her when she was 9 .

I found and posted credible sources that say other wise.

Your turn.

a reply to: Annee

It says she was with him for a total of 9 years after marriage. She would play with dolls in the early years, and she was 18 when he died.

When did you stop playing with dolls?

a reply to: blueman12

If one strips away the people and place the names or forms? Theres not really much difference except the concepts. Even here in the US and oter placed concidered advanced... people still work their children as a useful tool mowing lawns wasing dishes etc. not saying that is wrong but all of that kinda fast forwards them into adulthood meaning tired of it before they even got started if there was no interest and made too or no reward for doing it.

Thats just simple conditioning or training... not all of it good and not all of it bad, knowing the proper balance however is key, to avoiding disparity. If one recalls Romney saying that everyone makes about 50k a year per individual can you imagine how many jaws dropped in such a generality of belief? Of course not knowing means such ignorance is not bliss especially when it means running for an office representing people that recieve nothing per year to millions per year.

But basically take away the names and faces and the trope is there no matter one finds themself in the world making ones experience situational, and if one does not step outside of their own situational belief or conceptual ideas or walk in someone elses shoes in a metaphorical understanding... how could they know anything else? One must pop ones own bubble of willful ignorance to experience something to see what that other point of view is if they want to grow and not become so polarized or stagnant in beliefs or concepts that are individual situational and not shared meaning its only relavant to that to which they have already formed a bias.

originally posted by: Butterfinger
a reply to: Annee

It says she was with him for a total of 9 years after marriage. She would play with dolls in the early years, and she was 18 when he died.

When did you stop playing with dolls?

Provide source.

Unless its a Christian apologist.

If, as shown in the previous section above, Aisha was nineteen at the time of the consummation of her marriage, then she would be twenty years old at the time of the battle of Uhud. It may be added that on the earlier occasion of the battle of Badr when some Muslim youths tried, out of eagerness, to go along with the Muslim army to the field of battle, the Holy Prophet Muhammad sent them back on account of their young age (allowing only one such youngster, Umair ibn Abi Waqqas, to accompany his older brother the famous Companion Sa‘d ibn Abi Waqqas). It seems, therefore, highly unlikely that if Aisha was ten years old the Holy Prophet would have allowed her to accompany the army to the field of battle.

www.muslim.org...

originally posted by: Butterfinger
a reply to: InhaleExhale

Probably all of them, but the differences are that I dont deify them and hang on their every quote as if from God.

Its all about credibility in leadership. LOL


Let go of the hate? I wouldn't call it hate, just a firm distaste for a culture that perpetuates child rape. Thanks though.

Its the 21st century, and the catholic church is the one religion that people are coming out since the 80s with child rape and abuse stories.

But yea a guy who lived a couple hundreds of years ago is the problem.

We should ban everything christian, there pedophile protectors.

a reply to: Thetan

Was also a warlord and religious zealot for a cult

Oh and he only had visions in isolation

a reply to: dukeofjive696969

Child rape is rampant in the middle east and in some places accepted

Also Muhammad was about 1500 years ago

a reply to: Thetan

The religion of peace is false, and for almost all religions. Islam is just behind where all of the other religions are at this point in history. They are all based on violence and murder. Look at the mormons. Look what they did and went through in order to be established. I can not support anything that is based on violence. Can you imagine someone claiming that they were a prophet and then getting a bunch of people together to attack a military base?