German Wind Turbines, Are They Efficient?

I don't like big wind turbines that are connected to the grid. There are many ecological issues concerning manufacture, installation, operation, and the bit everyone wants to ignore, decommissioning.

Recently while visiting a friend I commented on the two turbines near his house. He has inside information and he told me they are German and the German turbines are efficient.

Is this true? Does anyone here have knowledge on this subject? Are the German wind turbines worth having?

a reply to: Kester

They are efficient and environmentally friendly, well except to birds.

originally posted by: Kester
I don't like big wind turbines that are connected to the grid. There are many ecological issues concerning manufacture, installation, operation, and the bit everyone wants to ignore, decommissioning.

Recently while visiting a friend I commented on the two turbines near his house. He has inside information and he told me they are German and the German turbines are efficient.

Is this true? Does anyone here have knowledge on this subject? Are the German wind turbines worth having?

Wind turbines are an ecologically less damaging source of energy than many other alternatives.

As technology improves, the efficiency of turbines (regardless of their source country) would reasonably be expected to improve.

But, there are many other issues than just efficiency that need be considered. As you have mentioned, the decommissioning of superseded technology comes with its own costs but there are running and maintenance costs and mean time before failure figures. High speed turbines have issues of noise and bird strike as the extended tips of turbine blades can move faster than the eye can see.

There are also low speed turbines that accommodate different wind conditions and adjust blade pitch and gearbox settings to prevent overspeed, but these are usually less efficient, and significantly more expensive than high-speed fixed pitch (and super simple) ones.

There are also vertical axis turbines that, while less popular, have some design features that may be better than a flat bladed fan in particular situations.

a reply to: Kester

Wind power generation is inefficient because it has to be massive to begin to fulfill the 'expectations' of the modern power grid. It is only electrical for starters and only when the wind blows.

As far as efficient there are other designs for smaller (read that individual) needs…
Combined with solar, both electrical and thermal, water wheels and say methane gas from organic decay, it is possible to generate enough power for any need (individual wise, not mass corporate greed).

Most efficient wind turbine designs

Would make sense to just use cameras that scan for birds and then launch a drone that can scare them away or just launch some fire work bursts to get them to dodge the spot maybe but hey that might be a pricey system to make work.

As far as efficiency goes what ever happened to incorporating the elements of whale fins into the blades? I have not heard much about that for a long time so I might have to look into that.

Germans are pretty crafty but I know jack about the current state of their turbines.

a reply to: chr0naut

We have to expect the unexpected.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

However, all of the research have been mostly on the impact of single wind turbines, and not on the accumulative effect of large wind farms. While a single wind turbine will have some effects on marine life and birds and insects, large wind farms will mimic the effects of Earth's magnetic field since they cover large areas of land and oceans and will have a greater impact on marine life as well as birds and insects mainly over land.

Many species of birds, as well as bats seem to be attracted by the wind turbines. There are several hypotheses of what exactly is attracting these animals including acoustic distortion, electromagnetic field disorientation, heat attraction, roost attraction, etc.

. . .

These anthropogenic electromagnetic disturbances which will continue to increase can have a much larger impact than all the anthropogenic disasters we have seen so far, such as oil spills.

. . .

. . . wind turbines generate a lot more power than what we actually use from them, and this power alongside with the low frequency sounds and infrasound generated by the wind turbine farms is what is causing all the negative health problems to people.

Knowing these real problems a lot of people are experiencing from wind turbines, which surpasses the negative effects normally felt by people from cell phones and cell phone towers, can you imagine the problems being caused to birds and insects that have the ability to use magnetoreception and, or electroreception?

. . .

Note that this paper states clearly that the more turbines the wind farm has, sound pressure increases and has more variations in frequency as a result of the combined sound generated by more turbines. Also, notice that in this field testing the engineers chose ten frequency sounds being generated by the turbines ranging from 55Hz to 315Hz. That's a wide range of frequencies many of which are used by animals for navigation, migration, breeding, feeding, etc.

originally posted by: intrptr
a reply to: Kester

Wind power generation is inefficient because it has to be massive to begin to fulfill the 'expectations' of the modern power grid. It is only electrical for starters and only when the wind blows.

Harnessing wind power has been around for quite some time, and while it's not an alternative to a complete grid supplement, it is a viable source for electricity just because someone put a windmill there.

a reply to: intrptr

Wind power generation is inefficient because it has to be massive to begin to fulfill the 'expectations' of the modern power grid. It is only electrical for starters and only when the wind blows.

Efficiency and cost effectiveness are not the same thing. If a power generation device only extracts 10% of the available energy from its source it can still be cost effective.

I'm waiting for fission energy

a reply to: Phage

All costs have to be included. Those costs will not all be immediately apparent. This thread has numerous links that are worth pursuing. www.abovetopsecret.com...

originally posted by: Sillyosaurus
I'm waiting for fission energy

Why? There's plenty of it. Didn't work out so good in some places. Three mile island, Chernobyl, Fukushima.

originally posted by: Sillyosaurus
I'm waiting for fission energy

You don't have to wait

a reply to: Phage

Efficiency and cost effectiveness are not the same thing.

I agree. Especially on a massive scale. The bigger the generator, the bigger the prop to turn it, the more wind to get it started, etc.

I was directing comments at the small scale of individual homesteads. Propellers aren't the best choice.

For instance, this design begins spinning at lower wind velocities, from any direction ( doesn't need to 'turn into the wind').

Image

a reply to: Sillyosaurus

I'm not trusting the decision makers. Ross Hesketh complained that the safer designs recommended were always turned down in favour of the cheaper options, leaving the government advisers wondering why they'd been hired.

originally posted by: Kester
a reply to: Phage

All costs have to be included. Those costs will not all be immediately apparent. This thread has numerous links that are worth pursuing. www.abovetopsecret.com...

Indeed they do.
I was not talking about any particular existing technology, just in general. Efficiency is a separate factor from cost effectiveness. A good example:
Where I live (in the tropics) PV technology is a very good alternative, year round. Up until last year it would have been cost effective for me to purchase a system. But politics (net metering got cancelled) and falling electric rates due to reduced fuel costs made it impractical.

But to get back to your OP, I would think that German wind turbines are efficient. Whether they are cost effective, as I said, is another matter.

originally posted by: intrptr

I was directing comments at the small scale of individual homesteads. Propellers aren't the best choice.

They are not a bad choice at all. The only downfall they have is required area. Windmills of any kind are very low cost to build, maintain, repair, and harness. Downside is they also are low producing and unreliable. Other than that there is really no downside to a windmill, other than the birds that fly into them.

a reply to: intrptr

Seems like good information here.
www.homepower.com...

Making electricity with the wind is not easy. As seasoned wind-energy installers with decades of experience, we—as well as thousands of others who live with home-scale wind turbines—tell a challenging tale. And the small wind industry today reflects those challenges, with long-established companies struggling and going under while the cost of reliable solar-electric modules continues to drop. If you think you want a wind-electric system, first think smart, then realistically.

Done well, residential-scale wind energy can provide clean kilowatt-hours in a very satisfying way. But because of the characteristics of the wind, wind systems have several strikes against them:

Tall towers are required for meaningful production
Reliability and robustness are hard to come by
Compared to solar electricity, the cost per kWh can be high
Qualified local installation and maintenance help is difficult to find
Hype, misinformation, and outright scams are too common
This article will help you sift through the rhetoric and numbers, and make a wise decision about whether or not to tap local wind energy. If you decide that wind is right for your site, we want to help you understand how to make it work for the long term.

Why Wind?

First, we suggest you get a handle on your motivations, needs, and situation. These will help determine whether a residential wind-electric system makes sense for you. People choose wind energy for several reasons, including:

Environmental concerns
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Each of these motivations—and combinations of them—will lead to different choices. Be realistic about why you are considering wind energy and make sure the actual results satisfy your expectations and goals.

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a reply to: Kester

I really don't know which country manufactures the most efficient but you make good point's.
Still they are not as polluting as some energy production method's but YES they do cause some ecological harm especially as Vector99 rightly point's out to sea bird's with thousands (Very conservative estimate) of them killed every year by wind turbines which also interfere with there breeding sites in many cases plus they are awfully ugly to say the least.

Then again the same argument's can be made against any ecological harvesting technology's such as wave generators that harvest the power of the waves, they interfere with marine habitat's and affect erosion rates slowing them but also causing natural sand bars and even beaches to disappear as a result of the slowed erosion at other location's.

I would suggest though that German's are actually excellent engineer's, I would like to say otherwise out of traditional disdain for our teutonic cousin's as I am English but if it is produced by a German manufacturer and it is made in Germany then odd's on it is damn good quality, no one makes better car's if you have ever driven a BMW (the ones manufactured in Germany that is as like everyone they are outsourcing these day's) then you will understand, or German Electronic's which until the seventy's led the world for a few decades with the likes of Grundig etc though the Japanese and then the Korean's soon out paced them.

originally posted by: Kester
There are many ecological issues concerning manufacture, installation, operation, and the bit everyone wants to ignore, decommissioning.

Power has to come from somewhere, and in comparison to all other sources of energy renewable methods are the only valid option.

Even when you factor in manufacturing, maintenance AND decommissioning, they are still far more viable.

You suggest that some of these things are ignored, but what about decommissioning of coal fired power stations? What about decommissioning of nuclear? What about the waste management? What about the clean up after?

No matter how you look at it, the overall costs are certainly NOT higher for renewable options, while they're also LESS damaging to the environment.

People know this, which is why campaigns against it have to focus on "It will spoil my view!!!!" as their only complaint.

I fully believe that we need to tackle our energy problem in multiple ways, incorporating renewable energy production with declining consumption. We need to spend more money on tackling waste and minimizing power consumption while also increasing the amount of energy produced through safer and cleaner means.

We waste far too much energy and we've become complacent, lazy, selfish. We expect to be able to flick a switch and it just to be there without considering how much we use and waste, and without considering where it comes from.

originally posted by: Rocker2013

originally posted by: Kester
There are many ecological issues concerning manufacture, installation, operation, and the bit everyone wants to ignore, decommissioning.

We waste far too much energy and we've become complacent, lazy, selfish. We expect to be able to flick a switch and it just to be there without considering how much we use and waste, and without considering where it comes from.

I think it's more a matter of we have been commissioned into such a state of apathy. Attempts to segregate from the apathy usually lands you in trouble. Some states in the US have made it illegal to collect rainwater. Water is the main ingredient to human survival.