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OKAY. I'm going with Jill Stein if I can't go with Bernie

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posted on May, 11 2016 @ 04:54 PM
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a reply to: muse7

Actually I'm writing in Bernie. I refuse the lesser of two evils, we all should. Besides Bernie beats Trump in the general by huge margins, Hillary loses or is close to even. That has been consistently shown since early on, why did the DNC keep pushing Hillary? Why hasn't Hillary unified the party and dropped out. I won't reward corruption and I won't vote for Hillary just to save the asses of the people too stupid to vote for Bernie.




posted on May, 11 2016 @ 04:56 PM
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originally posted by: muse7
It's amazing how many "progressives" are willing to cut off their nose to spite their face

I know I'll get flanked from both sides but it needs to be said

We have too many moon bats here that would hand Trump the Presidency

At least Hillary is for a 12 dollar minimum wage, she supports Obama care and an expanded Medicaid, she opposes voter ID laws and voter suppression, she wouldn't ban a whole religion from entering the US and would welcome Syrian refugees and she wouldn't appoint supreme Court justices that would happily over turn Roe v Wade



I can understand how you feel. It would be nice if the Left was unified at a time in which the Right is fumbling about, but I'm glad to see my fellow Leftists disagree with one another. It means that we are free-thinking individuals that do not follow the party line and propaganda.

We follow our hearts and minds, not the beat of the drum like the extreme Right Wing.



posted on May, 11 2016 @ 05:03 PM
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a reply to: Kali74

I want you to know, I am not the enemy.

Trump and Hillary are the faces of the same corporatist state. We do not live under a capitalist system, corporate protectionism is a hallmark of fascism. We are not moving towards a socialist system, under socialism everyone is required to work and produce, if you don't work you don't eat; there are no hand outs under socialism. The system we have been moving towards, which has been packaged as socialism, is a Global Scientific Dictatorship; every aspect of human activity will be monitored and controlled, and due to the advent of technology, it is not only possible, it is happening now.

We should take a look at all areas where government has gained control of industry. The healthcare industry was on par with the rate of inflation, when the state began subsidizing healthcare, the rate of inflation began skyrocketing; under Obamacare the state has gained more control over the health care system, and we are now seeing insurance prices balloon out of control.

There are three areas of the healthcare industry that have remained relatively in the free-market, lasik, lypo, and plastic surgery; these fields have actually seen a DECREASE in price over the years. It's as simple as that, now look at any area where government has control, it is the same story; from the military to social security.



posted on May, 11 2016 @ 05:20 PM
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a reply to: BuzzyWigs

I'm actually not sure what you are responding to. I specifically said that I wasn't going wade into the specifics (or perceptions) of what the different systems entail but rather to explain my general view. I actually made sure to not reply to a specific member to further avoid that confusion. If you took personal issue with that, it's on you.





It just means that "everyone gets to eat, have a roof over their heads, have an education, and have medical treatment."


So, basically, you are advocating for what we have now. We have robust housing programs, equally large food programs, provide primary and secondary education at no charge and nobody gets turned away at the emergency room.




How can you be against those things? HOW can you be anti-healthcare, anti-housing, anti-nourishment,


Do you think it a fair assumption that if someone doesn't agree with your strategy, they are "against" things? Why can they not have differing views on how to accomplish those same goals? Pardon me, but that seems awfully closed minded.




Seriously, again: how do you sleep at night....?


When all else fails, resort to emotional pleas...?

To answer a question that probably isn't worth answering....

I know where my wife and I started from as children. I'm so proud of how far we've come. We haven't cut any corners or broken any rules nor have we ever tried to screw anybody over. We are both as generous as we can be with our time, our efforts and our money. So to answer your question, I sleep just fine.

To be candid, the one thing that actually does keep me up at times is worrying about what this nation will look like in about twenty years when our son will be starting his adult life.



posted on May, 11 2016 @ 05:43 PM
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a reply to: 0zzymand0s

Now you're getting into a more basic principal regarding why I inherently want government involved in less aspects of my life, not more.

Some people tend to think of The Government as this perfect, infallible entity when it is simply a group of regular old human beings with all the shortcomings of everyone else. On top of that, there is so much bureaucratic redundancy, so much corruption and to be candid, so much incompetence.

Here is one example that I have personal experience with (and how it's not even in any of the major local papers escapes me). After Hurricane Sandy came through, the City set up a program to repair and elevate detached, single family homes. (How that is the business of the government or why tax dollars should pay for that is another story). Anyway, the City is spending anywhere between $600K to $800K to repair/elevate houses that are worth (and could be demolished and rebuilt for) about $300K to $350K. To make matters worse, they are paying for people's short term housing and projects that would take about 3 to 4 months to complete if handled by private companies/developers are taking up to (and over) a year. Does that make sense to anyone in the construction industry? No. Does it make sense to politicians who know not what they are looking? Clearly.

So again, why would I want MORE government in/handling MORE aspects of my life. Or to put it another way, I know how better how to live my life and provide for myself than the government ever could.

And yes, there is no such thing as a 'perfect' system and there is always room for improvement, but you don't throw the baby out with the bath water, as they say.



posted on May, 11 2016 @ 06:16 PM
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a reply to: GodEmperor

I want you to know, I am not the enemy.


You know what, though?

You are. You are acting like the enemy.



Trump and Hillary are the faces of the same corporatist state.
Agreed.


We do not live under a capitalist system,
erm, yes, we do.


corporate protectionism is a hallmark of fascism.


Yep! EXACTLY!!!


We are not moving towards a socialist system,

Yes, we are.


under socialism everyone is required to work and produce, if you don't work you don't eat; there are no hand outs under socialism.

WHAT? ^^Lie.

Sheesh you folks don't even TRY!!! Do you?!!?? No, you don't.

No. It's always just the same asinine lies and disinfo and "Glenn Beck" talking points - the same "Fox News" garbage.

Really? You honestly can't discern between MSM tripe and intelligent dialogue? Sad. Very sad.

Another good reason for me to ditch this.
You all have fun - I'll continue to think. Is that okay with you? Is it okay if I think?????



edit on 5/11/2016 by BuzzyWigs because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 11 2016 @ 06:39 PM
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a reply to: BuzzyWigs

What ever happened to the old saying ....

"When the going gets tough, the tough get going" ?

Maybe it's been changed ....

"When the going gets tough, the "tough" go away"




posted on May, 11 2016 @ 06:45 PM
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a reply to: BuzzyWigs

Here we go, baseless accusations from a person who has no substance on the issue.

The “dangerous class”, [ lumpenproletariat ] the social scum, that passively rotting mass thrown off by the lowest layers of the old society, may, here and there, be swept into the movement by a proletarian revolution; its conditions of life, howeve r, prepare it far more for the part of a bribed tool of reactionary intrigue.
www.marxists.org...

I really don't know if you just make it up, or because you don't like the truth you simply reject it.

Lumpenproletariat is a term that was originally coined by Karl Marx to describe the layer of the working class that is unlikely ever to achieve class consciousness and is therefore lost to socially useful production, of no use to the revolutionary struggle, and perhaps even an impediment to the realization of a classless society.
en.wikipedia.org...

EDIT: I have been quoting directly from the manifesto, I used the online version from the marxist website to show that it's not from Faux News. Please feel free to continue, I will educate, I know you don't care about the truth but there are many more who are reading this.
edit on 11-5-2016 by GodEmperor because: edit



posted on May, 11 2016 @ 06:50 PM
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originally posted by: introvert

I can understand how you feel. It would be nice if the Left was unified at a time in which the Right is fumbling about, but I'm glad to see my fellow Leftists disagree with one another. It means that we are free-thinking individuals that do not follow the party line and propaganda.

We follow our hearts and minds, not the beat of the drum like the extreme Right Wing.

If they all march to the same beat, what exactly are they "fumbling about" over?

This election cycle is a case study in candidates bucking the party line, and having success at it. Republicans are about to tear each other apart from within and you want people to believe that they're all a bunch of brainwashed drones peddling the same unified bulls#?

I'm sorry to interrupt you guys patting yourselves on the back for your free-thinking open mindedness and all, but the most "progressive" politics I see on display aren't coming from you guys.

Most of the propaganda, however, is. Every time I turn around, someone in your camp is trying to control what we can do, think, and say.

But you're the champions of free and open discourse, eh?

The act is getting old.




posted on May, 11 2016 @ 07:00 PM
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a reply to: NthOther


Republicans are about to tear each other apart from within and you want people to believe that they're all a bunch of brainwashed drones peddling the same unified bulls#?


Kinda.

Yeah.

Realize it. Picture it. Absorb it.

edit on 5/11/2016 by BuzzyWigs because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 11 2016 @ 07:07 PM
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a reply to: GodEmperor

So impressive, your research and links!

Nevertheless, you are mistaken.

Democratic Socialism is NOT the same "Marxism" or "Leninism" or "Communism" that you keep trying to present as equivalent.
It just isn't.
It isn't.

When you have looked all of it up, and can present a neutral post regarding the positives and negatives of each side, then -
and only then - you can school us.

Until you are ready, this remains a topic about which you appear to be poorly prepared to argue.
Just saying.



posted on May, 11 2016 @ 07:09 PM
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Anyway, I was going to log off, and should have.
Congrats to all you who kept me responding.
I now realize what a waste it has been.

Good night.
Do whatever.
Take care.

See you on the flip side.
(And yes, this is a challenge for anyone who can tell me where this statement originated....."See you on the flip side.")



edit on 5/11/2016 by BuzzyWigs because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 11 2016 @ 07:33 PM
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a reply to: BuzzyWigs

Why should I?

It is your task to show me the difference. Show me what you know, apparently no matter what information I present to you, will be false.

You tell me I'm wrong, yet provide nothing to correct my supposed error. I should just take you for your word, because your word is law?



posted on May, 11 2016 @ 07:40 PM
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originally posted by: BuzzyWigs
a reply to: GodEmperor

So impressive, your research and links!

Nevertheless, you are mistaken.

Democratic Socialism is NOT the same "Marxism" or "Leninism" or "Communism" that you keep trying to present as equivalent.
It just isn't.
It isn't.

When you have looked all of it up, and can present a neutral post regarding the positives and negatives of each side, then -
and only then - you can school us.

Until you are ready, this remains a topic about which you appear to be poorly prepared to argue.
Just saying.



I hope you'll consider my take earnestly.

I think we are looking at Fabian socialism in the U.S.

It's deeply rooted in our Ivy League college system. It's the socialism choice of the global elite-elite.


The Fabian Society is a British socialist organisation whose purpose is to advance the principles of democratic socialism via gradualist and reformist effort in democracies, rather than by revolutionary overthrow.


link

Surely, in 57 years, you've learned that Congress is corrupt. I'm 45 and admit I have a socialist heart, but....would I ever let our corrupt Congress anywhere near a (more) socialist spending plan? No way.

I think the spending oversight problems in Congress are far worse than most people want to admit. Congress is corrupt. And no one is doing the job of overseeing the government effectively.

It's enough to make me pause on socialism. Plus, the dismal amount of success in our current social welfare programs....I know people that really needed affordable public healthcare, btw. They didn't get it. I know a few generations of families stuck in a social welfare system of dependence and under education/job training.

I don't like how the U.S. does 'socialism.' Not at all.

Fix corruption and government oversight problems first. Then let's talk more socialism.



posted on May, 11 2016 @ 07:45 PM
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a reply to: BuzzyWigs

My best guess is that the "flip side" has to do with the side B of vinyl records, back in the day.

Just a guess so I could be wrong.



posted on May, 11 2016 @ 07:57 PM
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You might want to just move to Venezuela and get your socialism now, because that is our future under any form of socialism Bernie and Jill and Hillary have in mind. Enjoy those 2 mile long food lines and toilet paper shortages.

Do we keep having to repeat the same mistakes over and over again? Yes capitalism is a terrible, unfair system, that is better than any other economic system ever tried. A similar statement could be said about democracy.



posted on May, 11 2016 @ 08:09 PM
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a reply to: MotherMayEye

Human nature guarantees socialism is doomed to fail, corruption will never be rooted out from the seats of power.

Democracy is dependent on the mindfulness of the population, it has failed every time. We live in a federal constitutional republic for a reason, I could point out examples of what a democracy would look like from the change dot org site; it has been a while since I checked on it but when I did the top petitions were to build a death star and deport Justin Bieber. That's democracy for you, and that is the only difference between democratic socialism and socialism; whether we are under mob rule or dictatorial rule.

The very idea of socialism escapes most people, socialism is not an end product; it is a transitional system to something else. The theory is about an evolution from capitalism(private ownership) to socialism(public ownership) to communism(no government exist, people just live in peace and harmony).

The theory is wrong. Dead wrong.

Capitalism transforms into fascism, fascism leads to a global oligarchical technocracy. Every brand of socialism is a vehicle to propel us into a global dictatorship.

Hope for the best with your socialist heart, but prepare for the worst with your capitalist mind.



posted on May, 11 2016 @ 08:10 PM
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originally posted by: SevenThunders

You might want to just move to Venezuela and get your socialism now, because that is our future under any form of socialism Bernie and Jill and Hillary have in mind. Enjoy those 2 mile long food lines and toilet paper shortages.

Now now. Everyone knows that the only acceptable examples of socialism to be used in popular discourse are Nordic/Scandinavian.

You know, the ones that only exist because of the massive wealth (and resultant security, allowing for free expression) created by free enterprise and "enlightenment" liberalism (not to be confused with modern, bulls# liberalism).

Everything else you're supposed to shut up about.

Now that I think about it, it's kind of a form of racism. You can't talk about brown peoples' socialism, only lily white European socialism. Brown-country socialism (and their numerous atrocities and failures) is swept under the rug and hushed as though it's a family secret.

Who knew socialists were racists deep down inside?




posted on May, 11 2016 @ 08:29 PM
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a reply to: NthOther

Ahh yes the supposed Nordic socialism. You know the one where social security is privatized and invested in corporations, and as a result, in Norway everyone is a paper millionaire? How about the fact that Sweden is dumping universal health care in favor of private plans in order to stay solvent?

Does the fact that no one in Denmark can afford to buy their own home or own a car because taxes are too high, ever enter into consideration for the fledgling socialist? But the best example of socialism is .... Iceland, where corporate and personal taxes are lower in the US and enjoys a higher standard of living? ie Iceland is far more capitalistic than the US.

I submit there is no example in the world or history of socialism being a successful economic model. As Churchill said it really is only good for equally spreading misery. But that doesn't stop a new crop of millennials from being brainwashed into wanting to give it yet another go. That's because they are so smart they are going to get it right this time.
edit on 11-5-2016 by SevenThunders because: sentence fragment



posted on May, 11 2016 @ 08:30 PM
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originally posted by: Kali74
a reply to: muse7

Actually I'm writing in Bernie. I refuse the lesser of two evils, we all should. Besides Bernie beats Trump in the general by huge margins, Hillary loses or is close to even. That has been consistently shown since early on, why did the DNC keep pushing Hillary? Why hasn't Hillary unified the party and dropped out. I won't reward corruption and I won't vote for Hillary just to save the asses of the people too stupid to vote for Bernie.


yes, what you said...ditto




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