It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.

Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.

Thank you.

 

Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.

 

The flaws of capitalism and currency-based societies.

page: 3
4
<< 1  2    4 >>

log in

join
share:

posted on May, 10 2016 @ 07:52 PM
link   

originally posted by: monkeyluv
a reply to: intrptr

One more point to consider: much of the wealth of the rich does not consist of gold or beef but digital money, in the form of money stored in computer accounts, stocks, bonds, etc.

Behind ever major banks digital BS is an u ndergroind vault filled with gold.

In other words they hold the gold, we get fiat 'currency'.




posted on May, 10 2016 @ 07:58 PM
link   
a reply to: monkeyluv


No, the "little guy" is not content.

Because the banks have devalued the currency, replace 'precious metals' (coinage) with paper, resulting in inflation and less value for us, not more. Whats a twenty dollar gold eagle worth these days, by the way?

A copper penny? About 2.4 cents, currently. Thats why originally, they made money from metal, it keeps up with inflation.

Banks know this, thats why their fill their vaults with metal gold.

Zinc Pennies



posted on May, 10 2016 @ 10:58 PM
link   
a reply to: monkeyluv


What you refer to, I see as change. Not necessarily growth. The same towns shrink due to loss of business....say a China, and clientele drops due to work shortages. One can create many scenarios.

I've owned four trucks over the years. My position remains the same. Revenues have varied but no growth....


Growth is a human condition, not necessarily a capitalist one. Like-wise rot and decay. The system is largely workable despite 'flaws'.

None better so far....



posted on May, 12 2016 @ 08:47 AM
link   

originally posted by: nwtrucker
a reply to: monkeyluv


What you refer to, I see as change. Not necessarily growth. The same towns shrink due to loss of business....say a China, and clientele drops due to work shortages. One can create many scenarios.

I've owned four trucks over the years. My position remains the same. Revenues have varied but no growth....


Growth is a human condition, not necessarily a capitalist one. Like-wise rot and decay. The system is largely workable despite 'flaws'.

None better so far....



I didn't say that capitalism doesn't involve losses. What I argued is that it requires growth.

The reason is obvious: the "capital" in capitalism comes from profits and returns on investment. And given competition those can only exist given increasing production and sales. That's growth.

If there's no growth, then capitalist systems fall apart.



posted on May, 12 2016 @ 08:50 AM
link   

originally posted by: intrptr
a reply to: monkeyluv


No, the "little guy" is not content.

Because the banks have devalued the currency, replace 'precious metals' (coinage) with paper, resulting in inflation and less value for us, not more. Whats a twenty dollar gold eagle worth these days, by the way?

A copper penny? About 2.4 cents, currently. Thats why originally, they made money from metal, it keeps up with inflation.

Banks know this, thats why their fill their vaults with metal gold.

Zinc Pennies


It wasn't a matter of devaluing the currency that took place but the demand for credit exceeding the amount of gold. Couple that with the point that banks lend and maintain bank secrecy, and you have a rise in credit involving fiat currency (and later different types of credit) needed for economic growth.

That's why your example is irrelevant.



posted on May, 12 2016 @ 08:53 AM
link   

originally posted by: intrptr

originally posted by: monkeyluv
a reply to: intrptr

One more point to consider: much of the wealth of the rich does not consist of gold or beef but digital money, in the form of money stored in computer accounts, stocks, bonds, etc.

Behind ever major banks digital BS is an u ndergroind vault filled with gold.

In other words they hold the gold, we get fiat 'currency'.


No, almost everyone, including banks, get not only fiat currency but even credit. Check the pyramid chart in this site for details:

www.creditcontraction.com...

The value of all gold and silver worldwide is around $4 trillion. In contrast, the derivatives market has a notional value of over a quadrillion dollars.

That's the bulk of the wealth of the rich.



posted on May, 12 2016 @ 09:05 AM
link   
a reply to: monkeyluv


That's why your example is irrelevant.

The replacement of metal coinage with receipts, notes and 'promises to pay' is very relevant. It violates the constitution, you know the part saying only congress shall have the power to 'coin money' and determine the value there of.

The Fed is not federal its private banks, they usurped the constitution and made the switch.



posted on May, 12 2016 @ 09:08 AM
link   
a reply to: monkeyluv


The value of all gold and silver worldwide is around $4 trillion. In contrast, the derivatives market has a notional value of over a quadrillion dollars.

The wealthiest banks don't keep paper currency in their underground vaults, they keep gold.

The price of gold is artificially kept low by the same players, the only thing saving their fiat towers from crumbling.



posted on May, 12 2016 @ 09:15 AM
link   

originally posted by: intrptr
a reply to: monkeyluv


That's why your example is irrelevant.

The replacement of metal coinage with receipts, notes and 'promises to pay' is very relevant. It violates the constitution, you know the part saying only congress shall have the power to 'coin money' and determine the value there of.

The Fed is not federal its private banks, they usurped the constitution and made the switch.


Only a fraction of world money supply consists of paper money and coins. Most of it consists of digital numbers.

As I said, your example is irrelevant.

Also, the use of bank notes took place centuries before the Constitution was written, and did not even involve governments.



posted on May, 12 2016 @ 09:17 AM
link   

originally posted by: intrptr
a reply to: monkeyluv


The value of all gold and silver worldwide is around $4 trillion. In contrast, the derivatives market has a notional value of over a quadrillion dollars.

The wealthiest banks don't keep paper currency in their underground vaults, they keep gold.

The price of gold is artificially kept low by the same players, the only thing saving their fiat towers from crumbling.


Again, the total amount of gold and silver is only around $4 trillion. Credit levels are more than a quadrillion.

That means much of the wealth of banks does not consist of gold, silver, or even paper currency, but numbers in accounts.



posted on May, 12 2016 @ 09:22 AM
link   
a reply to: monkeyluv


Also, the use of bank notes took place centuries before the Constitution was written, and did not even involve governments.


All those governments eventually failed. Devaiuing 'currency' (paper, bark, beads, whatever) is the greedy, wealthiest mission throughput the ages. King TUT was buried with over 7 tons of gold.

Look that up in your history of gold.



posted on May, 12 2016 @ 09:25 AM
link   
a reply to: monkeyluv


That means much of the wealth of banks does not consist of gold, silver, or even paper currency, but numbers in accounts.

Dude you overlook whats at the core of modern banking and why their vaults are filled with gold. Between themselves they only deal in precious metals, they aren't stupid, the 'current' receipts are for the little people, big banks ship tons of gold to each other all the time for collateral.

They would not accept currency or promises, if you tried to borrow from the big boys and you didn't have any hard assets or holdings you'd be laughed out the room.



posted on May, 12 2016 @ 07:20 PM
link   

originally posted by: intrptr
a reply to: monkeyluv


Also, the use of bank notes took place centuries before the Constitution was written, and did not even involve governments.


All those governments eventually failed. Devaiuing 'currency' (paper, bark, beads, whatever) is the greedy, wealthiest mission throughput the ages. King TUT was buried with over 7 tons of gold.

Look that up in your history of gold.


But no governments were involved. Rather, merchants realized that they had difficulty (and found it very risky) to move around large amounts of gold. That's why they decided to ask for receipts or bank notes for trade. It also didn't help when trade rose to such an extent that even precious metals weren't enough.

That's why today the total value of all gold and silver worldwide is only around $4 trillion. I think global GDP is more that $50 trillion. The size of the credit market, which includes much of the wealth of the richest people in the world, has a notional value of more than $1 quadrillion, and most of it consists of numbers stored digitally.

Divide the total amount of gold and silver worldwide by the world population, and each person gets only around two or three ounces. And that's for the person's lifetime. Not exactly what capitalists (never mind governments) want in a world where more people want to sell and buy more goods and services each time.



posted on May, 12 2016 @ 07:25 PM
link   

originally posted by: intrptr
a reply to: monkeyluv


That means much of the wealth of banks does not consist of gold, silver, or even paper currency, but numbers in accounts.

Dude you overlook whats at the core of modern banking and why their vaults are filled with gold. Between themselves they only deal in precious metals, they aren't stupid, the 'current' receipts are for the little people, big banks ship tons of gold to each other all the time for collateral.

They would not accept currency or promises, if you tried to borrow from the big boys and you didn't have any hard assets or holdings you'd be laughed out the room.


The core of the modern banking system isn't gold but fractional reserve, and even that is irrelevant given endogenous money.

Also, what's been taking place across several decades is the complete opposite of what you said: banks have been readily borrowing and lending freely. That's why the unregulated derivatives market is around $1.2 quadrillion, more than twenty times larger than the global economy itself.

Most of that credit is not backed up at all by physical assets, let alone gold or silver, for which the total value worldwide is around $4 trillion.

And that's the bulk of the wealth of the richest people and banks worldwide.



posted on May, 12 2016 @ 11:43 PM
link   
a reply to: monkeyluv


I question selecting capitalism as a target. Growth? How about gov't power? Gov't size, gov't restrictions on freedoms. Every vested interest and 'ism', grows shrinks.

Everything seems to suffer from 'growth'.....else it stagnates and dies.

As far as capitalism goes ,it is capable of finding solutions to various ills via that very market demand, organic foods, alternate fuels, safer, cheaper, cleaner. Smaller cars. The list is long.

Your statement strikes as as much political as reality. Even space travel/exploration is moving into the private sector.

It surely isn't perfect, but there's a lot to be said for it, especially when compared to the alternative
s.



posted on May, 14 2016 @ 10:52 PM
link   

originally posted by: nwtrucker
a reply to: monkeyluv


I question selecting capitalism as a target. Growth? How about gov't power? Gov't size, gov't restrictions on freedoms. Every vested interest and 'ism', grows shrinks.

Everything seems to suffer from 'growth'.....else it stagnates and dies.

As far as capitalism goes ,it is capable of finding solutions to various ills via that very market demand, organic foods, alternate fuels, safer, cheaper, cleaner. Smaller cars. The list is long.

Your statement strikes as as much political as reality. Even space travel/exploration is moving into the private sector.

It surely isn't perfect, but there's a lot to be said for it, especially when compared to the alternative
s.


Capitalism actually relies on government. How do you think private property and the formation of modern private corporations took place?

Also, the problem isn't that capitalism is capable of finding solutions to problems. It's that it does so only when there is profit involved:

www.youtube.com...

Finally, the problem isn't that capitalism isn't perfect but the opposite:

www.counterpunch.org...

In short, because it is based primarily on profit-making, it requires growth and increasing productivity on efficiency, which in a physical world cannot be maintained.

That's why the global economy has been facing one financial and resource crisis after another.



posted on May, 14 2016 @ 10:54 PM
link   
As for space travel, that should have been in place decades ago. It's too late now given lower energy returns and a large human population that will continue to grow.



posted on May, 15 2016 @ 12:15 AM
link   
a reply to: monkeyluv

Capitalism existed BEFORE 'corporations'.

'Profit' or personal gain existed before Capitalism. Usually in the form of barter.

Exchanging a product or service for a perceived equitable exchange is fundamental.

Corporations may require your 'growth'.

Good old "Hang out a Shingle" and start a business merely requires viability, not unceasing growth.

You avoid the other growths I mentioned, I wonder why. You also offer no alternative to the Corporate/banking ills.

Lastly gov't only became interested when they realized they had a tax base in corporations. Now they are hand in hand.




edit on 15-5-2016 by nwtrucker because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 15 2016 @ 07:51 PM
link   

originally posted by: nwtrucker
a reply to: monkeyluv

Capitalism existed BEFORE 'corporations'.


Yes, but it moved to the formation of corporations due to the fact that capitalism involves growth. That means there's no way to avoid such.




'Profit' or personal gain existed before Capitalism. Usually in the form of barter.



Yes, but it couldn't generally be capitalized, which is one essential feature of capitalist systems. That's why barter is not the same as capitalism.




Exchanging a product or service for a perceived equitable exchange is fundamental.



Capitalism does not involve equitable exchange. That's why there's a profit involved.




Corporations may require your 'growth'.



Actually, for-profit corporations require growth. The basis of growth is profit.




Good old "Hang out a Shingle" and start a business merely requires viability, not unceasing growth.



Only if there are no competitors. Good luck with that fantasy.




You avoid the other growths I mentioned, I wonder why. You also offer no alternative to the Corporate/banking ills.



What other "growths"? The only metric used for all capitalist systems is the level of credit?




Lastly gov't only became interested when they realized they had a tax base in corporations. Now they are hand in hand.



No, it started when enclosures had to be legitimized.



posted on May, 15 2016 @ 09:13 PM
link   
a reply to: monkeyluv


Every system, organization , "ism" grows. Size is also a measuring system....quantity. Not all growth is measured by "credit" as you myopically assert. Of course capitalism evolved/grew into it's current state. As has everything else.


If you need articulate examples, then I'm wasting my time with you.


"Capitalism does not involve equitable exchange. That's why there's a profit involved." Really? Do I but an item that I do not desire...or at least consider that I 'profit' from. Be it an indulgence or a perceived enhancement? That I do not "profit" from.

Both sides often can and do "profit" from a product or service exchange. You use misuse of that Capitalism as blanket statement across all forms of capitalism and is, therefore, disingenuous.

Profit doesn't automatically require expansion. Increased profit may well, but not profit, itself.

You lack overview. You offer no alternative, no improvements and ignore the very workability that is all around you to see.

Flawed? Yes. Abused? yes. Requires repair? Definitely!


I'm fairly sure this post is completely wasted on you. We shall have to agree to disagree. Have a continued 'nice' day.



new topics

top topics



 
4
<< 1  2    4 >>

log in

join