Balaam's Fourth Oracle, the War Scroll and the sons of Seth

originally posted by: ChesterJohn
a reply to: CapstonePendulum

So Balaam's fourth oracle insn't true. I can read all about Balaam in the Bible and it says nothing.

The Bible is truth.

No ALL the tribes were forbidden to take wives of the nations around them. It is their disobedience that they take wives of other nations.

Moses marriage was before the law was given and later she was divorced.

yeah we know who you are.

You just said "Nowhere in scripture does it say Shethites."

I proved you wrong.

Instead of being a gentleman and saying, my mistake, you say, TO SAVE FACE, that Balaam's fourth oracle "ISN'T TRUE" and doesn't matter.

BEFORE saying "the bible is truth."

You are a mess. When you are wrong, that part of the bible is not truth. But the rest is.

WOW! Balaam and his oracles are in the bible. So if the bible is truth then so is his fourth oracle. You have no idea what star and scepter are referencing because you never think about how the ancients interpreted it. To the Qumran sect it represented the priestly and the Davidian Messiah's. Messiah meant anointed and the High priest and king were both anointed ones.

The concept of a supernatural virgin born Son of God is NOT Jewish. It was only a concept of Christians who borrowed it from the Nazarenes and Ebionites. Fringe sects of Israelites and not the main body. Both sects were extinguished by Rome.

Balaam is nevertheless considered a prophet in Judaism to this day.


You are just so terrible that you can't admit you were wrong and move on. You make excuses why it doesn't matter that you were wrong.

Buy you were wrong.

originally posted by: ChesterJohn
a reply to: CapstonePendulum

So Balaam's fourth oracle insn't true.

The Bible is truth.

Balaam's fourth oracle is a part of the Bible.



You confuse the Torah and its laws with the word I used, which is tradition. Tradition is that the Israelites hardly ever obey Yahweh's laws and the law of Moses even less.

Traditionally the Israelite Kings married outside of Israel. So did patriarchs.

Darius outlawed marriage between Israelites and Persians. Parsis of today who are the descendants of the religion of Darius still don't marry outsiders although the issue is being debated. Their numbers are dwindling.

Nevertheless even the Jewish Encyclopedia acknowledges the influence of Zoroastrian on Judaism and several Old Testament books. The Israelites most affected by Zoroastrian influence were the Pharisees and Zaddikim. More so the Zaddikim. But the word Pharisee is etymologically linked to Parsi, the name of a sect of Persians who survive today in India and have always had similar beliefs as Judaism being disciples of Zoroaster, a Persian prophet who is an Abraham like reformer of following one God over many.

Zoroaster also predicted the coming of a savior similar to Jesus and a judgement of souls and a resurrection.

originally posted by: ChesterJohn
a reply to: CapstonePendulum



The Bible is truth.

If by truth you mean "allegorical mythology" and "The compiled pseudo-history of the ancient world told from a pro-Israel perspective."


Truth is one thing that can't be proven when it comes to the Bible. The archeology of the world suggests it's almost entirely fabricated and a stand alone account of the history of the Israelites that is not true.

Yep, that is right Gnosisisfaith the Bible is truth and everything else is wrong.

a reply to: ChesterJohn

But you just said Balaam's oracle was wrong.

That's a part of the bible, so you just admitted it isn't all truth.

You are deluded.

a reply to: ChesterJohn

You have no facts just your opinion.

a reply to: ChesterJohn
ply

a reply to: Seede Correct, Jesus was conceived of the Holy Ghost, whom is the son of GOD, but his step dad Joseph is where the lineage is applied to Christ. Christ actually had no blood from the Moabite or from Rachab as both were foreign women that were wived by Israelites and are part of the lineage of King David as Jesus was a son of David. Just to clarify the error of the OP that Jesus is a Moabite.

Well said. I Agree with your perspective but you must understand the OP's mindset. He/she/it, is not a Christian and has very little understanding of even the basic concept of the bible. There are rare circumstances where a blood line is accredited through the female in records but you are correct in that the actual blood linage is from the male. I believe we can realize this from the very first chapter of Matthew who can be referenced quickly in most bibles.

originally posted by: Seede
a reply to: ChesterJohn
ply

a reply to: Seede Correct, Jesus was conceived of the Holy Ghost, whom is the son of GOD, but his step dad Joseph is where the lineage is applied to Christ. Christ actually had no blood from the Moabite or from Rachab as both were foreign women that were wived by Israelites and are part of the lineage of King David as Jesus was a son of David. Just to clarify the error of the OP that Jesus is a Moabite.

Well said. I Agree with your perspective but you must understand the OP's mindset. He/she/it, is not a Christian and has very little understanding of even the basic concept of the bible. There are rare circumstances where a blood line is accredited through the female in records but you are correct in that the actual blood linage is from the male. I believe we can realize this from the very first chapter of Matthew who can be referenced quickly in most bibles.

Lol! I understand the bible better than the two of you put together.

I'm not the one calling people it as if I am an androgyne.

While fooling himself that he understands the Bible because he knows that the Holy Spirit impregnated Mary. Everyone knows that.

You don't even understand the concept of the Bible. You think it is really history. I can't begin to tell you how impossible it is to understand the Bible when treating it as history.

You don't understand the difference between allegorical mythology and history. You have no idea how to interpret the Bible because you believe the lie that it is true.

Archeology proves that many of the myths are borrowed from Babylon and Canaan. The Exodus didn't really happen. Solomon never existed. Everything in the Bible is altered and told as if it was Hebrew all along.

Superstition is as big an evil as atheism.

a reply to: Seede

Modern Judaism is based on maternal lineage.

Which is why Jews consider Arabs Hamitic and not Semitic, so it is safe to say that it is an ancient tradition that your only Israelite or Semitic if your mother is.


The inclusion of Jesus paternal genealogy is pointless if Joseph isn't his real father.

a reply to: ChesterJohn

I notice your comments all lack substance and you ignore your own errors. You don't admit when you're wrong at all. All you ever say is the same garbage over and over defending the bibles accuracy and truthfulness.

You have no proof. You don't understand Judaism and Christ's Way is lost on you. You don't have the humility of a Nazarene or the wisdom of a disciple.

You are a jailhouse Christian who isn't in jail.

You think kissing Jehovah's but is going to get you into heaven and the bible is the only thing you have to cling to because you think you're righteous and Jehovah will smite your enemies. Vengeance is your faith.

a reply to: CapstonePendulum

there is no errors only you r opinion there is.

Go away Gnosis we are all sick of your nonsense anyway.

you have pitched you topics so many times under different user names in violation of ATS T&C that we are just tired of your junk OP's. that is OPINIONATED POSTS.

a reply to: Seede

Seed, this is our old Friend Gnosisisfaith under yet one of his to numerous to name all his ATS user accounts once again trying to come across as a newbee. But his words, style and OPINIONS give him away over and over again.

a reply to: CapstonePendulum

First, the serpent of Genesis has never been Satan. Satan is actually just The Adversary of man and works FOR Yahweh, not against. So he isn't a devil in Judaism today and he never was . The fringe Israelite sects that adopted a devil called him Belial and not Satan. Satan as the devil is a Christian invention.

Quote "A concept of a devil or a Satan is by far an antediluvian concept. Adam lost his garden because of that very same error." Unquote
That is my opinion as well as the opinion of Torah.

My own opinion on that matter along with other Christian Jews is that of the teachings of Jesus the Begotten of God. Your first error is to assume that all Hebrews believe the same as you wish them to believe. They certainly do not all agree.

The serpent of the Genesis account had been influenced by the sinning angelic teachings of the heavenly host that was cast out of the celestial realm. That is according to some Hebrew traditions. Now that will depend upon which tradition you will embrace. As said before I embrace the teachings of Jesus while assuming that you do not.

You can believe rabbinic Judaic teachings while I will believe both written and oral Torah. One day you will realize the vast difference between rabbinic Judaism and Christianity.
You are anti Christian who will use a Christian bible to argue an anti Christian view point. Your shorts are showing.

Apparently somebody is angry about being wrong about the Shethites and getting caught saying one part of the bible wasn't true in the same paragraph as he said the bible was all truth and is being a baby about it.

Grow up. Are you a child Chester? Does other people having thoughts about the bible that date different from yours that much where you have to troll blast the thread with snyde remarks that only the most annoying person vin the world make?

I'm washing my hands of you and not corresponding. In any thread.

originally posted by: Seede
a reply to: CapstonePendulum

First, the serpent of Genesis has never been Satan. Satan is actually just The Adversary of man and works FOR Yahweh, not against. So he isn't a devil in Judaism today and he never was . The fringe Israelite sects that adopted a devil called him Belial and not Satan. Satan as the devil is a Christian invention.

Quote "A concept of a devil or a Satan is by far an antediluvian concept. Adam lost his garden because of that very same error." Unquote
That is my opinion as well as the opinion of Torah.

My own opinion on that matter along with other Christian Jews is that of the teachings of Jesus the Begotten of God. Your first error is to assume that all Hebrews believe the same as you wish them to believe. They certainly do not all agree.

The serpent of the Genesis account had been influenced by the sinning angelic teachings of the heavenly host that was cast out of the celestial realm. That is according to some Hebrew traditions. Now that will depend upon which tradition you will embrace. As said before I embrace the teachings of Jesus while assuming that you do not.

You can believe rabbinic Judaic teachings while I will believe both written and oral Torah. One day you will realize the vast difference between rabbinic Judaism and Christianity.
You are anti Christian who will use a Christian bible to argue an anti Christian view point. Your shorts are showing.

The Jewish concept of Satan is that he works with Yahweh and is not his enemy or a fallen angel.

Stating that the Jewish belief in Satan as a devil is pre deluge is ironic since Satan doesn't make an appearance until the book of Job and is not a devil. He requires the permission of Yahweh to do anything. That is the Tanakhs opinion (FYI, Torah only refers to the first five books).

The Christian concept of Satan does not appear in any Jewish scripture. The two religions have entirely different opinions about Satan.

So, no, the devil is not an ante-deluvian concept. The serpent is not Satan and never has been.

Salvationism is a parasitic disease that breeds evil then blames it on a non existent entity.

You are what I call a victim of Christian theology and mythology. And quite arrogant. Arrogance and wisdom are oil and water.

You don't have a clue what Satan represents in Judaism. If you can produce one Jewish writing that makes Satan the enemy of God I will recant. And I mean Satan. Not another name that people think refers to Satan, but Ha Satan of the book of Job.

While the false prophet Balaam is mentioned in the Bible he was later killed by Joshua.

Jos 13:22 Balaam also the son of Beor, the soothsayer, did the children of Israel slay with the sword among them that were slain by them.
Jos 24:9, 10 Then Balak the son of Zippor, king of Moab, arose and warred against Israel, and sent and called Balaam the son of Beor to curse you: But I would not hearken unto Balaam; therefore he blessed you still: so I delivered you out of his hand.

The word oracles or oracle are never mentioned in the Bible in connection with Balaam.

2Sa 16:23 And the counsel of Ahithophel, which he counselled in those days, [was] as if a man had enquired at the oracle of God: so [was] all the counsel of Ahithophel both with David and with Absalom.
1Ki 6:5 And against the wall of the house he built chambers round about, [against] the walls of the house round about, [both] of the temple and of the oracle: and he made chambers round about:
1Ki 6:16 And he built twenty cubits on the sides of the house, both the floor and the walls with boards of cedar: he even built [them] for it within, [even] for the oracle, [even] for the most holy [place].
1Ki 6:19 And the oracle he prepared in the house within, to set there the ark of the covenant of the LORD.
1Ki 6:20 And the oracle in the forepart [was] twenty cubits in length, and twenty cubits in breadth, and twenty cubits in the height thereof: and he overlaid it with pure gold; and [so] covered the altar [which was of] cedar.
1Ki 6:21 So Solomon overlaid the house within with pure gold: and he made a partition by the chains of gold before the oracle; and he overlaid it with gold.
1Ki 6:22 And the whole house he overlaid with gold, until he had finished all the house: also the whole altar that [was] by the oracle he overlaid with gold.
1Ki 6:23 And within the oracle he made two cherubims [of] olive tree, [each] ten cubits high.
1Ki 6:31 And for the entering of the oracle he made doors [of] olive tree: the lintel [and] side posts [were] a fifth part [of the wall].
1Ki 7:49 And the candlesticks of pure gold, five on the right [side], and five on the left, before the oracle, with the flowers, and the lamps, and the tongs [of] gold,
1Ki 8:6 And the priests brought in the ark of the covenant of the LORD unto his place, into the oracle of the house, to the most holy [place, even] under the wings of the cherubims.
1Ki 8:8 And they drew out the staves, that the ends of the staves were seen out in the holy [place] before the oracle, and they were not seen without: and there they are unto this day.
2Ch 3:16 And he made chains, [as] in the oracle, and put [them] on the heads of the pillars; and made an hundred pomegranates, and put [them] on the chains.
2Ch 4:20 Moreover the candlesticks with their lamps, that they should burn after the manner before the oracle, of pure gold;
2Ch 5:7 And the priests brought in the ark of the covenant of the LORD unto his place, to the oracle of the house, into the most holy [place, even] under the wings of the cherubims:
2Ch 5:9 And they drew out the staves [of the ark], that the ends of the staves were seen from the ark before the oracle; but they were not seen without. And there it is unto this day.
Ps 28:2 Hear the voice of my supplications, when I cry unto thee, when I lift up my hands toward thy holy oracle.
Ac 7:38 This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and [with] our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:
Ro 3:2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.
Heb 5:12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which [be] the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
1Pe 4:11 If any man speak, [let him speak] as the oracles of God; if any man minister, [let him do it] as of the ability which God giveth: that God in all things may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom be praise and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

And no one refers to his so called prophet for hire business as "Balaam's Oracles" that is a man made up term and opinion. Sorry no scriptures to show because there are none.

Sorry Gnosisisfaith/CapstonePendulum your deception is not very convincing and popping back on with the user name "Octagra" wont work either.

I find it strange the Judaism acknowledges Balaam as a prophet despite being a traitor. I guess when you talk with Yahweh you can't be declared a false prophet just because you advise a king how to lead the Israelites into apostasy.

He did communicate what Yahweh told him to communicate and refuse to curse the Israelites. So you can't be revoked prophet status or declared a false prophet merely for sinning. Solomon is still a prophet and king and he was the most idolatrous person in the bible.

I believe that the star and scepter prophecy is and always has been considered Messianic. The Messiah had to come from the Davidic and Aaronic line.

Jesus is called the morning star and king of the Jews. Star and scepter.

a reply to: CapstonePendulum

I think that since the Moabites are cousin's of Israel that the Shethites very well could be devotees of Seth and consider themselves equal to the also Semitic Israelites.

They were all worshipping Baal at that time, hence Balaam or Balaam and he had the same God as the Israelites.

Also, prior to the revelation of the name YHWH there are several Yah based names which proves editing was done to cover up Baal based names.

So many Israelites had Baal based names that the Masoretes redacted many names with Baal and replaced them with the Hebrew word for shame.

a reply to: Octagra

The Israelites did not worship Baal during their exodus from Egypt.

Oh My you got caught again.

When will you just go away and find somewhere else to troll.