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Can idealists be reasoned with?

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posted on May, 7 2016 @ 10:51 AM
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a reply to: the2ofusr1

Part of the problem we have today is that words and concepts tend to mean slightly different things to the people who use them.

Equality for a leftist and equality for someone on the right are slightly different concepts. Both will say they want equality, but it means something different just for one example. Justice is similar.

So when you have groups who are picturing things in ways that may be very similar but using words in ways that have slightly different meaning and connotations attached to them when they speak to each other, reasoning and discussion gets skewed.




posted on May, 7 2016 @ 10:56 AM
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a reply to: Profusion

Because you see it as sell out you expect the same from his supporters? Then you have missed what this is all about. I would love to see Bernie as the VP, be it Clinton or Trump.



posted on May, 7 2016 @ 11:02 AM
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a reply to: luthier


If I was an idealist I could either make it big (small chance) or fail and go into debt (large chance) thinking I will tool up and compete with fender and Gibson right away.

Why so black and white on the topic? Words like "either" and "or" create a prison for an idealist and are terms better left for a realist to say.

Everything comes in shades of grey. Some say life is a never ending struggle. Do their ideals create their reality or does their reality create their ideals?


It just wise to have enough self awareness to understand your own reality, possibilities, and limitations.

In my reality, the possibilities are limitless.



posted on May, 7 2016 @ 11:05 AM
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a reply to: Profusion

Idealism is "faith"

you have the *ism*

No you cant argue with idealism... Its like a bubble, its their own fantasy.. Ever tried to get a madman out of a psychosis ? Its more likely you will get hurt before they wake up..



posted on May, 7 2016 @ 11:14 AM
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originally posted by: eisegesis
a reply to: luthier


If I was an idealist I could either make it big (small chance) or fail and go into debt (large chance) thinking I will tool up and compete with fender and Gibson right away.

Why so black and white on the topic? Words like "either" and "or" create a prison for an idealist and are terms better left for a realist to say.

Everything comes in shades of grey. Some say life is a never ending struggle. Do their ideals create their reality or does their reality create their ideals?


It just wise to have enough self awareness to understand your own reality, possibilities, and limitations.

In my reality, the possibilities are limitless.


Why?

Because I know a lot more failed idealists (in terms of being able to support themselves)

Everything is a grey area?

No my friend wisdom is understanding your limitations and applying your strengths.

Idealism is fine. We all constitute what we call reality but realism is having the ability to understand the collective, cooperative situation of human beings and nature and act and make predictions accordingly.



posted on May, 7 2016 @ 11:24 AM
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a reply to: PanPiper

Realism is an ism. Realist/Idealist Realism/Idealism.

MKUltra was a fantasy, Rockefeller Syphilis scandal was a Fantasy, Operation paperclip was a fantasy, Operation Northwood, if signed of, would of been thought to be a conspiracy same as 9/11, but it would of been true regardless,
America spying on everyone a fantasy but then we find out its true NSA... Cointel program was a fantasy until people stole FBI Files to prove it. Gulf of Tonkin another would be conspiracy/fantasy.

Dont declare idealists, which is a label associated with conspiracy theorists, Nutters etc... as believers in fantasy. Idealists have been proven right many times, realists just seem to forget that.



posted on May, 7 2016 @ 11:35 AM
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a reply to: RevolutionAnon

two extremes, two opposite sides. Fits within their paradigm of reality, fantasy or bubble..
I declare idealists as people who have a hard time adjusting to obligation to society.. kids who never learned how to become adults.. Or reality..

Where in my post did you see realism?
Where in the OP did you see realism?


You just make it into whatever fits your agenda dont you?

And change your name, cause you and them have nothing in common..



posted on May, 7 2016 @ 11:37 AM
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originally posted by: Profusion

Sanders' supporters are calling him a "sellout" because he may take Clintons' VP nomination if it's offered.



If you don't have power, you have nothing.

You have to get elected (or chosen) to have that power to effect change.

Idealism is a nice word, not much else.



posted on May, 7 2016 @ 11:47 AM
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a reply to: PanPiper

1. Realism is the opposite of Idealism. If you are against Idealists you are a realist and practise Realism. If you are an idealist then your still open minded to realism, but not always bound by it.

I declare realists as forgetting their obligation to society. It is Idealists that freed slaves, Idealists that removed the rule of histories tyrants. Martin Luther King falls into the class of an Idealist, Same with ghandi, JFK, Lincoln and so forth.

Idealists these days are anyone who think drastic change is possible. Realists are the ones who say "Our Government is corrupt but, hey, what can you do right? People shouldn't be slaves but, hey, thats just the way it is right?

The only people forgetting their obligation to society are those so enslaved by it they think free thinkers are crazy.

Revolution: a forcible overthrow of a government or social order, in favour of a new system.

I have EVERYTHING to do with my name, It is you who should not even mention it.

Edit: I take it from the lack of reply you are unable to dispute these points.
edit on 7-5-2016 by RevolutionAnon because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 7 2016 @ 12:18 PM
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a reply to: luthier


No my friend wisdom is understanding your limitations and applying your strengths.

While that is a wise thing to say, it does not constitute as wisdom. In my opinion, self imposed limitations can blind someone from realizing their full potential. There are obvious limits to consider, such as my immediate urge to attempt something I've never tried before and expect it to go swimmingly.

Applying your strength is a moment to moment contemplation of what they currently are, both mentally and physically. I find strength in knowledge which exercises my mind without limitation. Labeling any trait or ability a "strength," introduces the dichotomy of needing a weakness to exist. I guess in some way, strength can be born from an idle state rather than a weakness, but that's up to the realist to decide.


Everything is a grey area?

No. I said, "everything comes in shades of grey," meaning what is realistic to you about yourself and the world may not be at all the same for another. How "life" is perceived, recorded and transcribed comes in shades of grey. Even the laws of physics are showing their cracks as we learn and develop new ways to measure our surroundings. Everything is in a constant state of change.


We all constitute what we call reality but realism is having the ability to understand the collective, cooperative situation of human beings and nature and act and make predictions accordingly.

And too many arrogantly think they understand, in your words, "the collective, cooperative situation of human beings and nature and act and make predictions accordingly." Stupid people breed and we must always invent new ways to humanely exist amongst them.

Ideals should never dictate one's strength, weakness or identity, no matter how realistic they are. Many view them as such, cutting their perception short, leading to false perception and self imposed limitations. I would like everyone to believe that my ideals are ever changing and when confronted, may effortlessly evolve into a more or less applicable state. The truest sense of being "open minded."

I don't really like this song, but it seems fitting.


edit on 7-5-2016 by eisegesis because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 7 2016 @ 02:14 PM
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a reply to: RevolutionAnon

"where" did you start "seeing" the word "realism" in my posts..

Everything else you state, is your opinion. Its not fact, did idealism free the slaves?



posted on May, 7 2016 @ 02:41 PM
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a reply to: PanPiper

If your speaking about idealism and idealists; I am well within my right to bring up realism and realists. The two are linked, You cant be an idealist, or inbetween idealism and realism, if you say


I declare idealists as people who have a hard time adjusting to obligation to society.. kids who never learned how to become adults.. Or reality..


Your a realist and realists practise realism.

All you have just done is avoid my original reply because it has alot of truth in there that puts down your "I declare idealists...." speech. If Martin luther, Malcom X, Gandhi, Lincoln, Kennedy, Mandela, Roosevelt are "Kids who never learned how to become adults" Then count me in.



posted on May, 7 2016 @ 03:51 PM
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a reply to: RevolutionAnon

You are going OT to make a philosophical point of an opinion to make a cause about Idealists..

The opposite of up is down, is it the same thing if i wanted to talk about up.. No it really is not..
.
..
Now if we talk about directions, it means you can talk about up,down,left and right..

I reality i have one apple, but the ideal number would be three apples.. Only thing on topic is really the apple..




MKUltra was a fantasy, Rockefeller Syphilis scandal was a Fantasy, Operation paperclip was a fantasy, Operation Northwood, if signed of, ..........






Realism is the opposite of Idealism. If you are against Idealists you are a realist and practise Realism. If you are an idealist then your still open minded to realism, but not always bound by it. ..
.
....



Can idealists be reasoned with? Read the Headline






posted on May, 7 2016 @ 04:42 PM
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a reply to: Profusion

That depends what the ideals are. Being an idealist is not a bad thing unless ideally you have ridiculous ideas that have no chance at be realistic.



posted on May, 7 2016 @ 04:43 PM
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a reply to: ketsuko

I follow you on that point .after posting my comment I went to reading and found something that "" I got "" . I have always struggled with the left right difference and could never imagine how one could even articulate it .Funny sometimes speaks volumes and ways that many paragraphs a lecturer can not convey . It was in the for of a standing joke in Russia .95% of the people get it and it speaks volumes in understanding this complex left right thing we try to understand ....Not posted to offend but to share with people like myself that don't get it .

A new teacher comes into the class: – My name is Abram Davidovich, I’m a liberal. And now all stand up and introduce yourself like I did … – My name is Masha I liberal … – My name is Petia, I’m a liberal … – My Little Johnny, I’m a Stalinist. – Little Johnny, why are you a Stalinist? ! – My mom is a Stalinist, my dad is a Stalinist, my friends are Stalinists and I too am a Stalinist. – Little Johnny, and if your mother was a whore, your father – a drug addict, your friends – homos, what would you be then in that case? ! – Then I would be a liberal.



posted on May, 7 2016 @ 05:02 PM
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As far as the ideal and real, we all live in the real. We all have a clear picture of what our ideal is or would be.

We all want to move the needle such that our real matches our ideal more closely in various ways. An idealist is far less compromising with the real. That doesn't mean they can't or won't, but they will be much less likely to settle. Their ideal is more important than the real or even the realistic.



posted on May, 7 2016 @ 05:21 PM
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a reply to: ketsuko

I want ideals to be something we strive for, in the secular parts of the world. A " higher purpose " to our true nature..

Its when idealism works itself into reality and sometimes become a very real fantasy, and then we have the problem with trying to adjust people into reality from the fantasy..



posted on May, 7 2016 @ 06:05 PM
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a reply to: PanPiper

We all strive for our ideals, but not all of our ideals are the same. It's when the achieving of someone else's ideals come into conflict with the achieving of our own that conflict happens. And it's the mixed outcome of all this that creates the real.



posted on May, 7 2016 @ 06:18 PM
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a reply to: ketsuko

That is called a war




posted on May, 8 2016 @ 12:44 AM
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a reply to: PanPiper

the replies remind me off



what can you do



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