Originally posted by chinawhite

Originally posted by HowlrunnerIV
HEAT is acceptable, HESH is better.

That is why all major demolition rockets are HEAT?.

Demolition rockets? Don't you mean AT rockets used in demolition? As in RPG7-type weapons (and Milans etc)...

Hellfire, RPG etc.

Exactly. These are not demolition rockets. They are AT weapons. Which is why they are HEAT (shaped charges with a copper sheet etc)

HESH might be good for a few purposes

Such as anti-tank/AFV, anti-blockhouse/bunker/building etc.

but its mostly outdated and abandoned by most militaries except for the British.

Define outdated. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. These new ammo types you're referencing do not necessarily give superior performance in these situations.

Even countries still with L7s have HEAT warheads instead of HESH simply because it offers better performance

Not exaclty, no. Where are they buying their ammo?

Of the three Arab/Israeli wars, the Arabs were the agressors in two.

So they should have accepted the artificial creation of a state they did not recognise? I would more or less call it re-occupying area that they owned. I wouldn't call it aggression, it was western countries medaling with their business.

Suggest you read the history of the creation of Israel much more carefully. It was not "Western countries".

(Israel is not "battle-hardened" and "warlike", it is professional.)

Each world is interchangeable for this definition

No, it isn't. The Soviet Union (and the Red Army) was "battle hardened", didn't do the Sovs much good in Afghanistan, or the Russians in Chechnya. Professionalism is a very different thing. Many Egyptian troops in Sinai were veterans of Yemen. The meanings are very different.

And their surprise attack had nothing to do with it?. How about no air cover while the israeli air force bombards tanks in the open desert?

Ah, now then, certain "specifics". On this point I have to go off-topic and ask how stupid Nasser was for first picking the fight and then turning around and bending over with his pants down. I again return your eyes to the fact that I was talking about "suggestions". As in "the evidence suggests".

You said the 20 pounder was more versatile gun

No. I did not.

"Smaller, more useful, higher velocity gun"
"Smaller is in reference to the gun. Smaller gun. More useful gun. Higher velocity gun."

I did not use the word "versatile". "versatile" and "useful" CAN mean the same thing. They do not always mean the same thing. "useful" can also refer to "usability", among other things.

Did the 20 pounder play the role as a troop carrier...guess not

No, the Brits (and Yanks) had APCs for that. So, now you want the troops to ride around on all that "safe" deisel you were talking about? I specifically didn't mention this before, instead placing the troops in proximity to the tank. (or did that post get lost? I'm sure I've typed this and versatile/useful twice today) If it did, what I typed was this: deisel may not explode, but it does burn. Nasty to the accompanying infantry (which we both know often rode into battle on the tank). Plus: deisel produces more, darker smoke than petrol. Meaning that if it's burning on the back of your tank you have less visibility of your opponent. He, on the other hand, can see just fine where you are.

All it proves is the British proved more "adaptable" to circumstances.

If the Soviets were put in the same situation, they wouldn't have had similar solutions?. Maybe the Soviets didn't adapt because they didn't need to

If, if, if. But they weren't. The Brits were. They rose to the occasion (the Yanks did not, but they did give the Marines a heck of an amphibious APC, which they didn't use in D-Day ). But that doesn't change the fact that "variants" were your argument, not mine. Variants do not make the tank.

Originally posted by HowlrunnerIV
You never, EVER leave an enemy formation behind and simply go around it.

Blitzkrieg

I meant the armoured would cut the enemy off and the infantry will mop up. My sentence was in reference to armoured forces going into a wooded area

Plus, what where the Soviets going to completely destroy them with.

I wanted to make this point earlier but it was irrelevant to the tank vs tank discussion.

The Soviets used their armoured forces as modern day caverly. Firstly, they would send their mechanized diversions try break through the frontline and cut their forces into little pockets which they would encircle by using their greater mobility to cut off the escape. Call the artillery in to bombard the pockets of resistance until it is deemed ready and then finally send their armour in.

Soviet tanks wont meant to engage in tank vs tank until the opposition had been weakened

However, what I have visions of is masses of Soviet armour effectively bottle-necking and giving the combined airforces of NATO wonderful target practice.

If your talking about anywhere from 1945-1960, I believe the Soviets would have lost any war in europe. I reckon that from 1960-85 was the real time the Soviets had the upper hand in europe. By that time it recovered from WW2 and established a firm logistic base for war. The airforces would be roughly comparable and the Americans had no such organization and forces stationed to counter them

(Say, there's a nice thread, want to start it?)

I dont have the time, but i recommend Key Forum Aviation perhaps

Originally posted by chinawhite

Originally posted by HowlrunnerIV
Exactly. These are not demolition rockets. They are AT weapons. Which is why they are HEAT

They might have begun development as AT weapons but the purpose they share in the military is basically a demolition rocket which is what I call them. How much more times has the RPG-7 been used on buildings and people instead of tanks. How much tanks does the hell-fire have to its name compared to people and buildings like what israel does.

Though they started off as AT weapons they are more useful elsewhere

Have they changed the warhead? Or is it still a shaped charge with a copper sheet? If so then it is HEAT, not demolition. Doesn't matter if it has been used against buildings, that's not "demolition". Demolition is the "bringing down" of a building/structure (even in the military! But not always). "Busting it open" is a different matter. "Demolition charges" destroy whole buildings, they don't put nice little holes in them.

On that subject, the "spalling" caused by HESH is what makes it more effective than HEAT when used against concrete/rock/masonry. Heat will punch a hole in it (and cause a certain amount of blast/shrapnel), but HESH will create more widespread damage inside. Simple HE will spread the structure over the whole area. Military combat demolition charges are HESH.

(on that note, I love how Taliban/insurgents etc everywhere love posing with RPG tubes. Personally I'm more afraid of the man with an assault rifle, because he can kill men in a wide area quickly, his mate with the one-shot shaped-charge rocket projectile grenade cannot.)

I'd like to point out that Centurion and Chieftan were both the best tanks of their days, although the Chieftan was prone to engine failure.
I'd like to point out another fact, to the person who said the British military is third rate, China i think. If the British military is third rate??? Why do they spend the 2nd most amount of on their miliatry in the world???
Another fact is the Challenger2 is the best tank in the world, the only thing that has let it down is the price of the thing!!! A whopping £5 million, an abrams cost $4million.
I'd like to point out that an Abrams isn't capable of KO'ing a tank at the range of a Challenger due not being able to fire HESH rounds, which can be fired significantly further than HEAT/Sabot.

Originally posted by HowlrunnerIV

Originally posted by chinawhite

Originally posted by HowlrunnerIV
HEAT is acceptable, HESH is better.

That is why all major demolition rockets are HEAT?.

Demolition rockets? Don't you mean AT rockets used in demolition? As in RPG7-type weapons (and Milans etc)...

Hellfire, RPG etc.

Exactly. These are not demolition rockets. They are AT weapons. Which is why they are HEAT (shaped charges with a copper sheet etc)

There are a number of demolition weapons that use the HEAT principle or one of its many derivatives to combat fortifications. For example the "Bunkerfaust" warhead for the popular Panzerfaust 3.

Originally posted by HowlrunnerIV

Originally posted by chinawhiteHESH might be good for a few purposes

Such as anti-tank/AFV, anti-blockhouse/bunker/building etc.

but its mostly outdated and abandoned by most militaries except for the British.

Define outdated. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. These new ammo types you're referencing do not necessarily give superior performance in these situations.

Sorry, but for anti armor work the HESH is certainly outdated. Every halfway modern armored vehicle (that means 1975+) has spaced armour or spall liners. Additionally the HESH effect can be erased by even the simplest ERA, or even a layer of backpacks on the outside of a vehicle.

Modern multipurpose HEAT warheads also offer a lot of different applications for the shaped charge principle, there is a multitude of possibilities in fuzing, size, construction, material choice etc. Also many multi purpose warheads, especially for tanks, offer increased antipersonnel/area effect capabilities ...especially the advances in fuzing can even change the characteristics of the warhead "on the fly".

The HESH however can only be one thing - a lump of explosives that may be able to bring a house down. Well, sometimes you don´t want to bring the whole building down, just one or two wellplaced hits.

And now we´re coming to the question of it being outdated. The basic principle of the HESH is, of course, still sound, in being sort of a shaped explosive. The problem is that you can´t use it against serious armored threats anymore, its antipersonnel capability is lacking, its technological growth potential nearly maximized. That means its not a satisfying companion to the KE penetrators with their extremely limited scope of use.

Originally posted by HowlrunnerIV

The quote strings are starting to get pretty long and we're definitely off the topic of the Challenger 2 v Abrams...

Is this including our discussion?

reply to post by Anonymous ATS[/url

I don't care what the Daily Telegraph, the radio or TV have said about this incident because, basically, the report is b*llocks!

The WOII who I worked with, was in the Battlegroup OPs Room on stag, when the reports came in.

The RPG 29 was indeed fired at a Chally II and it did indeed, penetrate the
tank.

The warhead struck the road directly in front of the advancing tank and 'bounced' off the road penetrating the underside of the tank -
IMMEDIATELY BELOW & TO THE REAR OF THE ARMOUR BELOW THE GLACIS PLATE!

In other words, the warhead penetrated the Chally II, in the less protected and less armoured area forward of the belly.

I have questioned my friend closely about this because he had to arrange recovery to the secure workshop at the BG's base, and saw at first hand, the damage done.

the united states has been making a tank that will not be stopped by any other for years to come, it is going to use the abrams design in a way, but the armor will be nano, which means that a round will hit it, and it will repair itself, the gun will use rail technology which means it like a rail gun which will shoot the round at 7 miles per sec. it doesent use an exp round, pretty much i will be the best tank in the world, and the armor was tested usin nano tec, and it withstood a 500 lb bomb, and it looked brand new. and this tank is gonna be commin to the usa army soon, the usa awserd the challenger 2 and every other tank in the world right now + it also has a shield around it, which means if rpgs come flyin at it, rocket mounted systems will shoot the rpg before hittin the tank, it will be tough and it will be the meanest ever.

The challenger is the only tank in the world that can destroy an Abrahams, even an Abrahams cannot destroy another one. This is for several good reasons:

The armor is near invincible.

The only tank shell in the world that can breach it is a special shell with is of the depleted uranium squash head, this can only be fired from a rifled gun, which the challenger has.

The m1 had a brit 105mm gun, later models had a german 120mm rhein gun, which is inferior to the one used no the leopard, this is because the US one is slightly shorter.

Therefore, i believe the challenger 2 is the best in the world, with the leopard 2a6 2nd, and the m1a2 in 3rd.

Scuba.

Ok lets get this cleared up.

I am a Challenger 2 crewman gunner/driver in the british army. I've got 2 tours of iraq under my belt and a stint at the Armoured Trials and Development Unit (ATDU) in Bovington, where the tank was first invented. Quite obviously ive got experience of equipment that I cant disclose on the net.

Believe me when I say that the Chally 2 IS the greatest all round tank on the planet. I've used the abrams & leopard and discussed the topic at some length with their crews.

Tanks design is balanced between 3 deciding factors Armour, Firepower & Manouverability.

Armour. - The Chally 2 is fitted with Dorchester armour, an upgrade of the existing Chobam, now used in the Abrams. Dorchester is commonly accepted as the toughest tank armour ever concieved. I witnessed one of the vehicles in my troop recieve 23 rpg-7 direct hits in basra city in iraq. the vehicle drove back to camp and the only repairs required were a bit of paintwork and a new turret kit stowage bin. NO injuries to the crew.

Firepower. -The longest recorded tank to tank kill was made in the first gulf war by a chally 1 (2.5 miles) which uses the same gun as the chally 2, although now slightly upgraded. I cannot discuss the maximum range of the weapon, but believe me when i say it if FAR in excess of this, and I have personally used it to destroy targets at such ranges.

Manouverability. - The chally 2's weakest point is definitely its manouverability. That is however not to say that it is not still extremely capable. The top speed is 56kph by the manual, in reality I have done 74kph, 80 downhill (although that doesnt really count lol). This is on par with, if not in excess of many other MBT's added to this the exceptional track width, allowing the vehicle to cross boggier terrain than most rivals despite its comparatively large bulk.

The Challenger 2 has the strongest armour FACT.
has the longest recorded range FACT.
has a highly stable and manouverable hull, FACT.

It is quite simply the greatest tank on earth.

A 10s and attack helicopters mop up tanks when the employer of those aircraft has air superiority. So SAMs don't really come into tank battles.

A rolling armoured cavalry assaualt by a squadron of tanks like M1 or Challenger 2, that are all 'plugged into each other' and know where everything is on their patch of battlefield, will destroy just about anything that gets in the way.

Originally posted by Anonymous ATS I am a Challenger 2 crewman gunner/driver in the british army. I've got 2 tours of iraq under my belt and a stint at the Armoured Trials and Development Unit (ATDU) in Bovington, where the tank was first invented. Quite obviously ive got experience of equipment that I cant disclose on the net.

Oh No! I just realised that you could be a member of the dreaded Dorset Yeomanry!

Please U2U and tell me it ain't so!