Kate Jenner nude, with flag

a reply to: Freija

I'll have to ponder your exhortation. I will honestly consider it.

And, I probably do discount some of his stuff that might be more valid than I think.

However, I think my biases are probably more opposite to his biases.

I understand there is somewhat of an argument for all that sort of thing. I understand something of the mentality and bio-chemistry etc. etc. etc. I guess it just doesn't sway me as much as it does a lot of people in this PC era.

I just have a fairly fierce bias toward birth gender. I realize that there are hermaphrodites and a whole bunch of other things on the continuum. And I really do think a lot of those folks deserve special consideration and support.

For some reason, Jenner doesn't strike me as fitting in that category.

AND I have a bias that the whole field has been wound up, intensified, elaborated on, enlarged and puffed up for some sort of nefarious political purpose. And that leaves me feeling somewhat disgusted to angry.

I really do appreciate it when folks call me out on being inconsistent with my values. I may or may not disagree but I will at least give their exhortation a fair hearing. THANK YOU FOR YOUR EXHORTATION on such scores.

I think my derisiveness comes from a fairly strong conviction that there's just something rotten in Jenner's being a poster boy/girl for such things. It's more than a little bit TOOOOOOOOOOOO MUCH to be swallowed as it's presented.

Anyway--my 2 cents.

originally posted by: Freija
So, I'm curious. Was the purpose of this thread just to mock, make fun of and disrespect someone? Does it make you all feel good or superior to intentionally mis-gender a transgender woman? Would you really say these things to Jenner's face and treat another human being this way?

I don't care if you like Jenner or not, I personally don't either but you all should be ashamed for some of your comments and language especially when it is obvious many of you have no knowledge of the medical, scientific and legal facts of being trans nor one iota of compassion and understanding of the social and emotional turmoil and difficulties transgender people have to deal with.

As far as I'm concerned, some of you have stepped over the boundaries of civility and rudeness. I'm not defending Caitlyn Jenner, I can't stand her but I am speaking out for trans men, women and children everywhere and ask they be afforded a modicum of respect and dignity. It isn't asking a lot.

Thanks.

Ending Rudeness, Hate, Bigotry: Getting Back to Basics

We will no longer tolerate the tactless and the rude. We will no longer allow blanket statements about whole groups of people for no other reason than they offend you.

And Bo with all your touchy feely posts on relationships and psychology I'm particularly disappointed.

I am guessing you are questioning me, well hmmm


The purpose of bringing this thread to ats, its well worth considering, stars and flags, hate on the transgender community, bit of fun, conversation?
I just found it interesting, find it peculiar, find it absurd.

A woman who was a man posing naked on a national magazine cover in a US flag.
Why?
The same flag that represents a whole country same flag that people respect and honor a flag that men on Iwo Jima planted on the soil the flag placed on a soldiers coffin

Evidently its also a flag a reality tv star can wear to sell a few magazines to garner a few more dollars.

Personally, I think she is disrespectful, thats only my opinion though

a reply to: BO XIAN

Thank you for your response. You seem like someone quite fond of psychology, relationships and the human condition and I am a little bit surprised you aren't more versed in the medical and scientific research and understanding of the transgender condition. I have been researching and studying since the late 1960's and if you'll be bothered to read my post here you'll understand why.

originally posted by: BO XIAN
a reply to: Freija

And, I probably do discount some of his stuff that might be more valid than I think. However, I think my biases are probably more opposite to his biases.

His who? Jenner? Socially, Caitlyn is a she and should be referred to as such. Legally in the State of California, she is female. "Her" would be the appropriate pronoun, not because it's politically correct but because it simple respect for who someone is as a person.

I understand there is somewhat of an argument for all that sort of thing. I understand something of the mentality and bio-chemistry etc. etc. etc. I guess it just doesn't sway me as much as it does a lot of people in this PC era.

I would say you actually understand very little of the "mentality and bio-chemistry etc., etc., etc. People have been transgender throughout all of history and a hell of a lot longer than political correctness.

I just have a fairly fierce bias toward birth gender. I realize that there are hermaphrodites and a whole bunch of other things on the continuum. And I really do think a lot of those folks deserve special consideration and support.

Your first consideration would be to refer to them as intersex, not hermaphrodites. You may want to brush up on the science, language and medical and legal issues of those with DSD's (Disorders of Sex Development) by visiting the Intersex Society of North America.

For some reason, Jenner doesn't strike me as fitting in that category.

Gender dysphoria is the formal diagnosis used by psychologists and physicians to describe the condition of feeling one's emotional and psychological identity as male or female to be opposite to one's biological sex. Evidence suggests that people who identify with a gender different from the one they were assigned at birth, may do so not just due to psychological or behavioral causes, but also biological ones related to their genetics, the makeup of their brains, or prenatal exposure to hormones.

People are born with gender dysphoria. It is a lifelong thing that doesn't go away. It is present in young children and adolescents which presents a slightly different taxonomy than when expressed in adults that have successfully repressed and denied it for sometimes a lifetime. Since it isn't exactly possible to re-wire the brain (everything has been tried) nor would it really be ethical to do so, transgender people "transition" to bring the outside into better congruence with the inside.

Medical science has been trying to help these people since the 1930's. Much of the research before 1945 was destroyed by the Nazis in WW II but people have been medically "changing sex" in this country since the late 1950's. Revelations and greater understanding came in 1966 with publication of The Transsexual Phenomenon by pioneering researcher Dr. Harry Benjamin. I am well versed in current research and on-going studies in this area, advocate for transgender youth and their families and can suggest any number of places where you can find resources and information on this condition.

AND I have a bias that the whole field has been wound up, intensified, elaborated on, enlarged and puffed up for some sort of nefarious political purpose. And that leaves me feeling somewhat disgusted to angry.

Well, then we have something in common because using one of the most vulnerable minorities out there as political pawns to rally unfounded fear, bigotry and prejudice over where to pee is a pretty cheap shot which has me equally disgusted and angry.

I really do appreciate it when folks call me out on being inconsistent with my values. I may or may not disagree but I will at least give their exhortation a fair hearing. THANK YOU FOR YOUR EXHORTATION on such scores.

I post here to bring awareness and understanding of transgender and transsexual people and children, not with my own opinions, experience or pop-psychology but with those of the international medical and scientific communities that have some understanding of all this based on decades and decades of research. I am also interested from a sociological point of view witnessing first hand how the knowledge and visibility of trans people has progressed beyond the 50's and 60's knowledge of Christine Jorgensen to Renée Richards in the mid 70's to the present day.

I think my derisiveness comes from a fairly strong conviction that there's just something rotten in Jenner's being a poster boy/girl for such things. It's more than a little bit TOOOOOOOOOOOO MUCH to be swallowed as it's presented.

Nobody elected Jenner spokesperson. There has been a great deal written by the trans communities attacking her for not being representative of the 99% of other trans people out there that don't live in a protective bubble of wealth and celebrity. You can blame the media and clickbait pop culture for turning this into a circus.

Anyway--my 2 cents.

I appreciate your 2 cents and willingness to more closely evaluate your own opinions. Thanks for giving me a nickel.

a reply to: Raggedyman

anyone can burn or carry a flag, the fact that he is pushing the trans gender movement using the flag and the the fact that the lower class cares is the problem. he is a tool used by the powers that be

originally posted by: Raggedyman
I am guessing you are questioning me, well hmmm

The purpose of bringing this thread to ats, its well worth considering, stars and flags, hate on the transgender community, bit of fun, conversation?
I just found it interesting, find it peculiar, find it absurd.

Not sure I understand? "Hate on the transgender community" was one of the reasons you started this thread? Do you realize how much of that there's been in the last month? I've read every hateful and ignorant thing said in the following threads and at this point "transgender" has just become clickbait because posters know it will get them stars and flags and draw others in to say stupid sh@t.

Recent threads with anti-transgender sentiment and distasteful comments for no reason other than to be offensive. Pick any other minority and say the kinds of things about them that have been said about transgender people and it won't get past the T&C's. Are manners and civility too much to ask? Nobody is asking anyone to love and accept trans people with open arms, just to show a little courtesy and respect and stop throwing shade.

• Republicans have the bathroom issue backwards
  
• Alabama city: Use bathrooms matching biological sex or face 6 months in jail
  
• Transgender Misconceptions - She Changed My View!
  
• Transgendered children: should a parent be able to chemically alter a child's sex?
  
• A man is a man, and a woman is a woman....
  
• Mother of transgender student urges SC school district to update bathroom policy
  
• If you don't embrace change, you are racist and bigoted.
  
• Transgender MMA Fighter Destroys Female Opponent
  
• Trump: Transgender people can use whatever bathroom they want
  
• HB2, North Carolina mandate to hate homosexuals.
  
• The hypocrisy of social justice warriors.
  
• Porn Site Bans North Carolina Users Due To State’s Anti-LGBT Laws
  
• North Carolina Loses 400 Jobs as PayPal Pulls Facility over ‘Bathroom Bill’
  
• Religious Freedom Bills: giving the freedom to discriminate!
  
• Cat to undergo gender reassignment surgery
  
• Kansas lawmakers want to pay students who 'out' trans students
  
• A Person HAS the Right to Discriminate...the Government Does Not
  
• American College of Pediatricians Says Teaching Children Transgenderism Is Child Abuse
  

I'll say one thing and that's people say they are sick of hearing about this and having it "shoved down their throats" but then, why are so damn many people starting threads and commenting about it? Why do people feel the need to go out of their way to say negative and offensive things about stuff and people they obviously know nothing about beyond myth, urban legend and lack of knowledge (ignorance).

I don't give a rat's ass if people don't like trans people but they are human beings and deserve to be treated as such, not mocked, ridiculed, called perverts, mentally ill, predatory raping pedophiles and intentionally mis-gendered as a way of showing disrespect. "IT" is not a sex nor a gender but is simply dismissive,derogatory and crass. Is that what ATS has become?

A woman who was a man posing naked on a national magazine cover in a US flag.
Why?

To sell magazines is why. To objectify and fetishize trans people is why although Jenner is too stupid to realize how she's being used or of the polarizing attitudes she's causing. Yeah, sure, she's doing it for "awareness" but even I'm calling bull on that at this point. Sports Illustrated is just going for the clickbait and capitalizing on controversial celebrity and as far as I'm concerned, as guilty as the Republican party for co-opting transgender issues for political or financial gain. It is reprehensible.

The same flag that represents a whole country same flag that people respect and honor a flag that men on Iwo Jima planted on the soil the flag placed on a soldiers coffin

That same flag that Jenner brought accolades and admiration to. That same flag that waved when Jenner was a national hero that made this country proud. What have you done? It's more than I ever have. I'm not defending Jenner, I can't stand her myself and this whole thing reeks of the superficiality of celebrity and pop culture and making a fast buck on a trendy topic. Bitch about that all you want but is it really necessary to attack someone just because they're transgender? Is it okay to be rude to a someone just because people think they're a freak? Are we in grade school here?

Evidently its also a flag a reality tv star can wear to sell a few magazines to garner a few more dollars.

And do you think Jenner approached SI with this idea? Doubtful. Should she have told them to go take a flying eff? I wish she had because at this point, she's doing more harm than good.

Personally, I think she is disrespectful, thats only my opinion though

I don't disagree and find it equally as absurd and offensive but is it really necessary to say things like this about Jenner personally? Look at some of the comments in this thread attacking Jenner for being Jenner that have nothing to do with your nationalistic desecration of the flag point. Do you see what I'm saying? It's uncalled for and honestly a little embarrassing to be a member of this community that somehow considers themselves to be a cut above or critical thinkers doing their best to spread rather than deny ignorance.

• its a he not a she
  
• I think you mean a naked old guy with a vagina
  
• "I think for a man it's a hideous looking thing, has no talent, and is only a household name cause it made a huge deal out of it's vagina."
  
• I just can't wait for this train wreck to end
  
• Dry heaving video
  
• South Park video
  
• This thread should be posted in Aliens/UFO
  
• No, the zoology forum.. surely
  

Do I think it is disrespectful to Old Glory? Yeah but it certainly isn't without precedent now is it?



OP, I'm not picking on you specifically. You've self moderated your own comments well enough but others here have really shown their own true colors about what kind of people they are. It sucks. They suck.

a reply to: Freija

I only thought he was famous cause of his Olympic accomplishments then decided to be a woman and then smoked someone with his hummer like it was nothing and got away with it scott free. Other then that from what I gather the dudes an odd duck.

originally posted by: Freija

originally posted by: Raggedyman
I am guessing you are questioning me, well hmmm

The purpose of bringing this thread to ats, its well worth considering, stars and flags, hate on the transgender community, bit of fun, conversation?
I just found it interesting, find it peculiar, find it absurd.

Not sure I understand? "Hate on the transgender community" was one of the reasons you started this thread? Do you realize how much of that there's been in the last month? I've read every hateful and ignorant thing said in the following threads and at this point "transgender" has just become clickbait because posters know it will get them stars and flags and draw others in to say stupid sh@t.

Recent threads with anti-transgender sentiment and distasteful comments for no reason other than to be offensive. Pick any other minority and say the kinds of things about them that have been said about transgender people and it won't get past the T&C's. Are manners and civility too much to ask? Nobody is asking anyone to love and accept trans people with open arms, just to show a little courtesy and respect and stop throwing shade.

• Republicans have the bathroom issue backwards
  
• Alabama city: Use bathrooms matching biological sex or face 6 months in jail
  
• Transgender Misconceptions - She Changed My View!
  
• Transgendered children: should a parent be able to chemically alter a child's sex?
  
• A man is a man, and a woman is a woman....
  
• Mother of transgender student urges SC school district to update bathroom policy
  
• If you don't embrace change, you are racist and bigoted.
  
• Transgender MMA Fighter Destroys Female Opponent
  
• Trump: Transgender people can use whatever bathroom they want
  
• HB2, North Carolina mandate to hate homosexuals.
  
• The hypocrisy of social justice warriors.
  
• Porn Site Bans North Carolina Users Due To State’s Anti-LGBT Laws
  
• North Carolina Loses 400 Jobs as PayPal Pulls Facility over ‘Bathroom Bill’
  
• Religious Freedom Bills: giving the freedom to discriminate!
  
• Cat to undergo gender reassignment surgery
  
• Kansas lawmakers want to pay students who 'out' trans students
  
• A Person HAS the Right to Discriminate...the Government Does Not
  
• American College of Pediatricians Says Teaching Children Transgenderism Is Child Abuse
  

I'll say one thing and that's people say they are sick of hearing about this and having it "shoved down their throats" but then, why are so damn many people starting threads and commenting about it? Why do people feel the need to go out of their way to say negative and offensive things about stuff and people they obviously know nothing about beyond myth, urban legend and lack of knowledge (ignorance).

I don't give a rat's ass if people don't like trans people but they are human beings and deserve to be treated as such, not mocked, ridiculed, called perverts, mentally ill, predatory raping pedophiles and intentionally mis-gendered as a way of showing disrespect. "IT" is not a sex nor a gender but is simply dismissive,derogatory and crass. Is that what ATS has become?

A woman who was a man posing naked on a national magazine cover in a US flag.
Why?

To sell magazines is why. To objectify and fetishize trans people is why although Jenner is too stupid to realize how she's being used or of the polarizing attitudes she's causing. Yeah, sure, she's doing it for "awareness" but even I'm calling bull on that at this point. Sports Illustrated is just going for the clickbait and capitalizing on controversial celebrity and as far as I'm concerned, as guilty as the Republican party for co-opting transgender issues for political or financial gain. It is reprehensible.

The same flag that represents a whole country same flag that people respect and honor a flag that men on Iwo Jima planted on the soil the flag placed on a soldiers coffin

That same flag that Jenner brought accolades and admiration to. That same flag that waved when Jenner was a national hero that made this country proud. What have you done? It's more than I ever have. I'm not defending Jenner, I can't stand her myself and this whole thing reeks of the superficiality of celebrity and pop culture and making a fast buck on a trendy topic. Bitch about that all you want but is it really necessary to attack someone just because they're transgender? Is it okay to be rude to a someone just because people think they're a freak? Are we in grade school here?

Evidently its also a flag a reality tv star can wear to sell a few magazines to garner a few more dollars.

And do you think Jenner approached SI with this idea? Doubtful. Should she have told them to go take a flying eff? I wish she had because at this point, she's doing more harm than good.

Personally, I think she is disrespectful, thats only my opinion though

I don't disagree and find it equally as absurd and offensive but is it really necessary to say things like this about Jenner personally? Look at some of the comments in this thread attacking Jenner for being Jenner that have nothing to do with your nationalistic desecration of the flag point. Do you see what I'm saying? It's uncalled for and honestly a little embarrassing to be a member of this community that somehow considers themselves to be a cut above or critical thinkers doing their best to spread rather than deny ignorance.

• its a he not a she
  
• I think you mean a naked old guy with a vagina
  
• "I think for a man it's a hideous looking thing, has no talent, and is only a household name cause it made a huge deal out of it's vagina."
  
• I just can't wait for this train wreck to end
  
• Dry heaving video
  
• South Park video
  
• This thread should be posted in Aliens/UFO
  
• No, the zoology forum.. surely
  

Do I think it is disrespectful to Old Glory? Yeah but it certainly isn't without precedent now is it?

OP, I'm not picking on you specifically. You've self moderated your own comments well enough but others here have really shown their own true colors about what kind of people they are. It sucks. They suck.

It wasn't hate on transgender, sorry you took it that way

I understand and accept your issues, pity I can't go back in time and to not have written the thread

It's a pity transgender is being sold to people the way it is

originally posted by: Freija
.
. . .
.

People are born with gender dysphoria. It is a lifelong thing that doesn't go away. It is present in young children and adolescents which presents a slightly different taxonomy than when expressed in adults that have successfully repressed and denied it for sometimes a lifetime. Since it isn't exactly possible to re-wire the brain (everything has been tried) nor would it really be ethical to do so, transgender people "transition" to bring the outside into better congruence with the inside.

Medical science has been trying to help these people since the 1930's. Much of the research before 1945 was destroyed by the Nazis in WW II but people have been medically "changing sex" in this country since the late 1950's. Revelations and greater understanding came in 1966 with publication of The Transsexual Phenomenon by pioneering researcher Dr. Harry Benjamin. I am well versed in current research and on-going studies in this area, advocate for transgender youth and their families and can suggest any number of places where you can find resources and information on this condition.

You are quite right about my being behind the times on being read up on it all. I didn't really get into that much at all in my PhD in Clinical Psych way back when.

However, I do recall a few years ago? . . . reading an article about how a huge percentage of sex change folks . . . after all the 15 minutes of local fame or whatever had passed/worn off . . . and they had to face their daily lives more individually again--a huge percentage of them got chronically into depression and a significantly above average of them 'succeeded' at suicide. Evidently a large percentage regretted their decision. Regardless of the causes, that's horribly sad, to me.

I think that in that same article, it was documented that a very large percentage of individuals, if they could get through puberty and maybe past--I forget--25 years old or some such--then they managed fairly well with their birth sex--at least a LOT better, on average than those who had wholesale sex change medical treatments.

I'd think that the whole field would show a lot more integrity if THOSE FACTS were ALSO openly discussed vs all the hoopla and propaganda.

.
. . .
.

Anyway--my 2 cents.

I appreciate your 2 cents and willingness to more closely evaluate your own opinions. Thanks for giving me a nickel.

Certainly. Likewise.

originally posted by: Raggedyman
It wasn't hate on transgender, sorry you took it that way

Thanks for your reply. I didn't really think that's what you meant and I didn't take it that way. Maybe go back and read what you wrote and see how it could be misconstrued though.

I understand and accept your issues, pity I can't go back in time and to not have written the thread

I have no problem with condemning someone appearing nude wrapped in the US flag on the cover of a magazine but would it have even been an issue for you if it wasn't someone transgender?

Would it have been an issue if the transgender woman looked like this:

or this


It is supposed to be a celebration or acknowledgment of the 40th anniversary of Jenner winning the Olympic gold and Jenner is a proud American but appearing nude wrapped in a flag is just titillation and poking the bear to make a buck. You know, if they put her on the cover in a business suit or even a knit golf shirt or you know, like sportswear in a sports magazine

it wouldn't be quite so bad but instead they objectify her as they do with most women in their magazine and Jenner is stupid enough to let them.

It's a pity transgender is being sold to people the way it is

I don't disagree with that but trans rights and acceptance is about 20 years behind gay rights and acceptance. I have no particular love or fondness for the transgender communities or as some call certain factions, the Transgender Borg Collective but am familiar with the struggles and problems of trans youth which may as well be something completely different on another planet.

Talking about transgender stuff is fine and it does occasionally allow me an educational moment but when people come in or start off with slurs and attitudes, things go to hell in short order. You were a little snarky, I understand that as I've been equally critical of Jenner and Sports Illustrated but snark opens the door for unpleasant remarks and ignorant transphobic comments that smack of bigotry and prejudice and people think this is Twitter or something and they just have to get their little one-liner digs in. It's pretty lame.

Like I said, I could care less if some don't like or understand transgender people but I also happen to think that no particular demographic is deserving of such derision and intentionally degrading remarks.

a reply to: Freija

I hope you are not of the opinion that

transgender folks

are incapable of being jerks???

Or, that they are incapable of cooperating with jerks in the media?

Or, that they are incapable of being used as idiot stooges of the PTB for very questionable to awful ends?

originally posted by: BO XIAN
You are quite right about my being behind the times on being read up on it all. I didn't really get into that much at all in my PhD in Clinical Psych way back when.

However, I do recall a few years ago? . . . reading an article about how a huge percentage of sex change folks . . . after all the 15 minutes of local fame or whatever had passed/worn off . . . and they had to face their daily lives more individually again--a huge percentage of them got chronically into depression and a significantly above average of them 'succeeded' at suicide. Evidently a large percentage regretted their decision. Regardless of the causes, that's horribly sad, to me.

I think that in that same article, it was documented that a very large percentage of individuals, if they could get through puberty and maybe past--I forget--25 years old or some such--then they managed fairly well with their birth sex--at least a LOT better, on average than those who had wholesale sex change medical treatments.

Let me say this, there is a huge amounts of politically motivated anti-transgender propaganda out there mostly found on right-wing, conservative and Christian fundamentalists websites and the actual facts do not support your statement. I will get you links to current research, statistics or point you to threads where I've already discussed these things a million times.

I'd think that the whole field would show a lot more integrity if THOSE FACTS were ALSO openly discussed vs all the hoopla and propaganda.

As noted, the "FACTS" you are referring to, the negativity and woeful tales of regret aren't coming from the research and medical communities and let me just save you some time so you don't quote anything from Dr. Paul McHugh, Zuker & Bradley out of Canada or the American College of Pediatricians that are major sources of this drivel. All have been discredited.

Please ignore the title of this article. I am not even suggesting you are trolling but I can see which way you are leaning and know which way the wind blows and this article is informative and dispels a lot of myths. It's a good place to start. How to Spot Anti-Trans Concern Trolls

Additional links will be forthcoming. The current internationally accepted Standards of Care can be downloaded in PDF form from WPATH, The World Professional Association for Transgender Health. It is anything but light reading.

Thank you for your consideration and I'm hoping and looking forward to helping raise your awareness of these issues. Are you in the big city? I'm East Valley. Let's have coffee or something?

a reply to: Freija

Thanks. Would enjoy coffee but I'm much to far . . . in the Northern hinterlands.

I appreciate your inputs.

I don't buy all the Christian conservative hoopla on the topic any more than I buy all the liberal PTB propagandistic hoopla.

You will increase my understanding--probably already have.

I'm skeptical about your side of things discrediting much of anyone.

e.g. imho, Jenner has discredited him/herself in several ways by cheap nonsense.

originally posted by: BO XIAN
a reply to: Freija

I hope you are not of the opinion that

transgender folks

are incapable of being jerks???

Why would you think I would believe that? Being transgender is certainly not a pass to be a jerk.

Or, that they are incapable of cooperating with jerks in the media?

Nope, don't think that either.

Or, that they are incapable of being used as idiot stooges of the PTB for very questionable to awful ends?

I know this is a conspiracy site or at least it used to be when I joined nine years ago but your "PTB" reeks of paranoia, NWO agendas, the Illuminati or what not and if these "awful ends" you speak of are social progress, equality or civil rights, then our discussions might not go as far as I'd like. Before I get accused of being some hard left liberal SJW, let me tell you I'm not.

originally posted by: BO XIAN
I'm skeptical about your side of things discrediting much of anyone.

MY side of things? Oh, you mean the science and research side of things followed by all major health organizations internationally backed by decades upon decades of therapeutic results? Mmmm kay...

e.g. imho, Jenner has discredited him/herself in several ways by cheap nonsense.

And yet you continue with the "him/herself" crap. I tried but I think we are done and I should have known better. I think Jenner is an idiot but that doesn't mean SHE needs to be disrespected. Dang man, is a little human dignity and courtesy too much to ask?

a reply to: Freija

I understand your feelings, I think, in your response.

However, I'm not sure that Jenner has respected him/herself or the country. I'm not sure why I feel that way. His/her whole schtick appears to be some sort of PR hyper-drama toward what?

I can respect him/her as a person. I don't have to respect all this hyper-drama nor the goals that it may be manipulating toward.

I use him/her because that's just the facts. He/she is not 100% either one, imho. That's just the reality, as I see it.

Someone can demand that a wall that was once black and has now been lightly painted over with white--they can demand that I call it now white. But to me it is grey and I'll continue to call it grey. You call my assessment of the grey "crap." I could claim you aren't respecting me.

I don't call that disrespecting an individual or their personhood. I call that respecting reality--particularly vs the hideous hyper-drama built up about it.

Can we all agree to simply ignore anything any Cardashian does?

originally posted by: Gazrok
Can we all agree to simply ignore anything any Cardashian does?

I agree. Kinda hard to ignore if walking away though.

a reply to: BO XIAN

If you met your neighbor and she told you her name is "Wendelina" but told you that she goes by "Wendy", for short... what would you call her?

Would you call her "Wendelina"? Would you make some cute hybrid as you have been doing and call her "Wendelina/Wendy"? Would you just call her "it" because the whole name thing confuses you?

Or would you just show her the minimum respect a human should show another human and actually call her by what she said her name is?

It doesn't matter if you are angry at PC-whatever, it doesn't matter that you are completely uninformed about trans topics, and it doesn't matter if you don't understand. None of that matters enough to leave your respect for another human at the door when you leave the house or hop on the computer. If somebody says they are a woman and you happen to know their medical history (of being assigned as a male at birth), god dammit, show her the bare minimum of respect by calling her "SHE".

Don't let your politics or ignorance get in the way of acting like a decent human.

Just following up. The flag thing never happened (thank goodness!)