Detroit Schools Shuttered as Lawmakers 'Illegally' Withhold Teacher Pay

a reply to: Aazadan

Thank You.

a reply to: Aazadan

I think we need a cultural rehabilitation in certain sectors (not racially exclusive by any means) coupled with a different educational system.

Children and can learn and want to learn and have parent/s who will enforce a learning discipline need to be able to congregate in schools where the environment supports and encourages it.

The rest need to be in different environments where they can either be rehabilitated or simply trained for what they can be used for in society, but in the current system, it isn't fair to have them all mixed together.

And I am not lumping students with learning, mental or physical disability in this, but they should also have their own environments instead of being mainstreamed.

a reply to: ketsuko

I could see segregating students by academic ability. I think a large part of the problem today is that classrooms simply have too many disruptive students.

In a way it feels unfair to put them all in a classroom where they have no chance at all to excel, but in another way the few are already ruining it for the many and I could support removing the trouble makers in order to give everyone else a chance.

It's essentially what the private schools are doing now with their option to simply kick a student out.

Better yet, we could just let the trouble makers withdraw from school. The teachers don't want them there, their fellow students don't want them there, they don't want to be there. Why not just let them leave and fill our schools only with people who are willing to stay and learn?

originally posted by: bigfatfurrytexan

originally posted by: chrismarco
a reply to: ketsuko

I fet what you are saying but as corny as it sounds the kids who are getting screwed have little to no control over the adults...so they are screwed

If the nation abandons the school district in Detroit, it will create consequences that run for genertions and ripple outward into the rest of the nation. That can't happen.

But before a single penny of my tax dollars go to Detroit, I want to see prison sentences being meted out. There is no reason federal bailouts shouldn't come with a pound of flesh. And that should be the expectation going forward. Uncle Sam can be your sugar daddy....but its gonna hurt.

Thats what confuses me.

Why have there not been mass arrests of the politicians and administrative staff?

a reply to: ketsuko

UK did that with grammer schools. They were state schools that took the best 5-10% of students.

Worked great.

Then the libitards started to ban them for being against equality. .........

originally posted by: o0oTOPCATo0o
The problem here is bigger than what the OP has shown.

Indeed, but it's bigger than you mention in your post too.
This is what happens in a "failed state".

Michigan is a failed state, and Detroit is the epitome of what happens when governance of the people collapses. They've wasted decades since the collapse of the car business doing nothing to replace the lost revenue or give anyone reason to move there.

The collapse of the car industry there was the start of this, but instead of them promoting a new system of diversified income they did absolutely nothing to replace that lost revenue. They had every opportunity to, they've wasted decades doing nothing but scrambling from one failed shoring up to another, while STILL doing nothing to fix the root problem.

People don't seem to understand the economic problems, even those running the city and state don't seem to have the first clue about how their city is failing.

They just keep eroding what they have to pay off something else. The city is winding down and things like this are going to continue to happen until there's no one left there to justify the existence of the city at all.

If I was living and working there I would be looking to move to a more successful city/state. This is not going to get better because the city hasn't done anything to fix the problem.

Here's what they should have done ten years ago... they should have pumped any money they had into new business, encouraged corporations to buy up large areas of derelict land for almost nothing, allowed employers to get an amazing deal for a ten year presence. They should have restored old neighbourhoods and invited young college graduates to come and start their businesses rent free for five years. They should have redeveloped retail areas and given small businesses priority over national or global chains (which only funnel money OUT of a community).

They've done nothing to repair the haemorrhaging of business and income, and now they are in a downward spiral which is going to need billions of $'s to fix and decades of work to reverse.
As they don't have the money to pay their existing teachers - a core of their public services - you can expect to see medical staff, policing, firefighters etc all following this same path.

a reply to: Aazadan

Like I said, private schools can do that, but it is the option of last resort. I know there is a problem student at the school my son goes to now. The headmaster there worked a military academy before working this school. He knows discipline and he knows how to do it in a gentle but firm manner. They've been working hard with this kid all year. I think the last straw is not receiving parental support, but I suppose every school is different.

originally posted by: KnightFire
Why should they get paid if they are not teaching? .

Some teachers chose to have their salary spread over more weeks, ie through the summer rather than get bigger checks just during the school year. Who here would like to find out they got screwed out of money that both sides had previously agreed too?

As I've been searching through different sources prior to responding in this thread, I'm honestly more confused then better informed about what the actual problems and solutions are for the Detroit Public Schools. It seems the funding per student is about $11,000 per year, give or take depending on the source, about the National average per student. So why are Detroit schools such a mess ? Mis-used allocations , outright theft of funds, the decline of the city since the car industry crashed, less enrollment as more people leave the city, paying for promised retirement packages for retired teachers all seem to be in play here.

It would seem the biggest cost to running a school would be paying the teachers and the staff.....I think I read somewhere that about 60% of a schools budget will be spent on staff. Now if the average class size was only 20 kids, many schools have up to 30...but even at 20 kids per class ...it takes 4 kids to pay the teacher's salary at $40k a year, plus leaves another $4k to go toward supplies and other costs. The remaining funds from the other 16 students leave another $176k on the table per classroom ! Now I understand I'm using simple math here, "common core" was before my time, lol......but something just doesn't add up here !

For $15k a year we were able to send our kid, not easily btw, it's a lot of money...but for that money she went to a BEAUTIFUL school, the best of everything, great teachers...day and night between the public schools...so how do they manage to give so much more for not that much more money per child?

originally posted by: MountainLaurel
As I've been searching through different sources prior to responding in this thread, I'm honestly more confused then better informed about what the actual problems and solutions are for the Detroit Public Schools. It seems the funding per student is about $11,000 per year, give or take depending on the source, about the National average per student. So why are Detroit schools such a mess ? Mis-used allocations , outright theft of funds, the decline of the city since the car industry crashed, less enrollment as more people leave the city, paying for promised retirement packages for retired teachers all seem to be in play here.

It would seem the biggest cost to running a school would be paying the teachers and the staff.....I think I read somewhere that about 60% of a schools budget will be spent on staff. Now if the average class size was only 20 kids, many schools have up to 30...but even at 20 kids per class ...it takes 4 kids to pay the teacher's salary at $40k a year, plus leaves another $4k to go toward supplies and other costs. The remaining funds from the other 16 students leave another $176k on the table per classroom ! Now I understand I'm using simple math here, "common core" was before my time, lol......but something just doesn't add up here !

For $15k a year we were able to send our kid, not easily btw, it's a lot of money...but for that money she went to a BEAUTIFUL school, the best of everything, great teachers...day and night between the public schools...so how do they manage to give so much more for not that much more money per child?

Money is only part of the equation. Learning is reinforced at home. The problem is that many of these children do not get that reinforcement as they are in broken homes.

I live in a wealthy suburb of Chicago. We have excellent public schools from kindergarten all the way through high school. We have very high property taxes as a result. I don't mind paying as I can see where the money is going.

Every year, the community is at odds trying to figure out why minority students don't perform as well as white kids. These kids have access to the same exact resources as everyone else. Like most liberal communities, they want to look at all the other symptoms instead of the root problems. They talk about inequities in discipline, institutional racism, and all the other social justice bullsh*t we hear on a daily basis.

They always want to gloss over the family structures and what is happening at home outside of school. The bottom line is that these kids simply are not putting in the same effort. I mentored a kid in the community. He didn't do well in school. It was mostly because his mother simply did not stay on top of him in regards to his school work. She never knew when he was getting his report card. never went to PTA meetings. Never forced him to do homework.

You can lead a horse to water, but you cannot make them drink. All the money in the world is not going to fix a broken home.

a reply to: Edumakated

I understand the point your making, however my point wasn't so much about the performance of the students but rather about with the money already allocated by the Federal government per student, not including any money collected by property taxes, voted on by taxpayers. Why is there such a deficit of funds in Detroit that they can't pay their teachers moderate salaries?

In the example I used a Private school that costs $15k a year is able to provide a VERY GOOD school to their students, and yes they definitely expect a lot of hands on parental support of the students as well......but for $11k a year per student in Public schools ( on average ) it makes no sense to me that so many schools are struggling so badly that in this case they are considering defaulting on the teachers promised wages....something doesn't add up....A LOT of money is being wasted or stolen is the only thing I can think of.

a reply to: MountainLaurel

I have the same question. I think a lot of it comes down to overbearing administration, or atleast that's the only thing I can come up with. It's certainly not going to the teachers but money is very clearly being spent and with their larger class sizes public schools should be taking better advantage of an economy of scale, yet they aren't.

originally posted by: MountainLaurel
a reply to: Edumakated

I understand the point your making, however my point wasn't so much about the performance of the students but rather about with the money already allocated by the Federal government per student, not including any money collected by property taxes, voted on by taxpayers. Why is there such a deficit of funds in Detroit that they can't pay their teachers moderate salaries?

In the example I used a Private school that costs $15k a year is able to provide a VERY GOOD school to their students, and yes they definitely expect a lot of hands on parental support of the students as well......but for $11k a year per student in Public schools ( on average ) it makes no sense to me that so many schools are struggling so badly that in this case they are considering defaulting on the teachers promised wages....something doesn't add up....A LOT of money is being wasted or stolen is the only thing I can think of.

The money is wasted on the bureaucracy... administrators, pensions, etc. Big government wastes money. On the other hand, private schools are held accountable by the parents paying the tuition. Private schools know the parents have a choice.

Since public schools are largely funded through property taxes, the school systems will get their money regardless if they perform or not. The only way a parent can protest is to move. Liberals hate school choice as it takes control away from the bureaucracy.

a reply to: Aazadan

Yup, that money is being spent somewhere, and I see that as the beginning to solving this whole problem, not only in Detroit, but across the Nation. We could talk all day about social problems that surround our schools, but I think 1st we need to work out why a very generous budget per student being given to all students in Public Schools has resulted in so many sub-par schools that are so broke, that in this case they can't pay their teachers !

I don't think this is just happening in Detroit either, it's just that for a variety of reasons, again I'm trying to keep this line of thought about school funding, not social issues...this community has been unable to rally together the extra funding that seems to be completely necessary everywhere to keep the schools afloat. The pressure on students and parents to participate in fundraising has greatly increased in the last 20 years.....being on the PTA can become a full time job. In wealthier areas they can vote for higher property taxes and rely on parent donations to improve their schools.

It still comes down to why isn't the allocated money enough to provide decent schools anymore ?

a reply to: Edumakated

Well, I certainly wouldn't disagree with most of what you said, other then "liberals" hate school choice, I sure don't and I'm pretty sure I'd be considered one, especially with many of my "conservative" ATS friends. I'm not even sure what my political affiliation is anymore, I guess an "Independent" fits best, lol, although I had to re-register as a Democrat to vote for Bernie.

"Waste Not, Want Not"....is one of those things that has stuck with me through my life, and I've had a privileged life compared to many probably. The obscene amount of waste spent on bureaucracy ,administrators, pensions, etc. is the problem most likely not only in schools , but everywhere in everything !

a reply to: crazyewok

My 2 cents: administrative staff are always arrested when they pilfer alone.

But to begin mass arrests of an entire political entity? I think that would cause a deficit of trust that the state and federal government just don't prefer.

Or, if nothing else, that prosecutors don't prefer.

Just to clarify about pensions, I'm not totally against them at all. I do think that if a Federal or State employee receives a pension and health benefits, that receiving Social Security too might be double dipping to some degree? Even Ron Paul pointed this out, and he freely admits he collects his Social Security check that he paid into and was promised to him, although he believes that Social Security in Unconstitutional...I disagree since it is supported by the majority of American People.

IDK...it just seems that the people that were once willing to fight for worker's rights got THEIR sweet deals "grandfathered" in......meanwhile kids, the new generation is being taught they are lucky to "Have the Right to Work" and that corruption is the way of the World...

Too many people in Detroit are unemployed. Too many are on welfare. The city simply has not the funds out of its own strength. Money for education should be allocated according to a states and districts need, not according to a states strength. A good average across the country does more for the nation than some states having over the top money for public education and others almost none. But that would be communism.

allowed employers to get an amazing deal for a ten year presence

I'm fairly sure that's been done before, and I'm fairly sure that resulted in corporations sticking around for as long as the deal held and then immediately bailing.

a reply to: xuenchen

why would teachers not want to go to work??? I am confused.