Our concept of free will could all be an illusion, new research suggests.

originally posted by: Navarro
Many have long understood that freewill is an illusion, regardless of this and several other experiments which are intended to demonstrate that fact. When we "make a decision," our choice is ultimately predictable. Instinct, conditioning and circumstances make the choice, not you. You didn't wake up today, dawn a pink tutu and walk around town proclaiming that you're a dodo bird to all you met. You didn't choose not to do this; it's just not in your nature. At any moment in time, a seemingly infinite set of possibility confront you. You could do anything, but you'll ultimately only do one thing. You only have one future, and no matter what you think, you're going to do what you're going to do, and you're not going to do what you're not going to do.

It's been said that if one knew the position and movement of every particle in the universe at the time of its formation, a sufficiently intelligent being could have predicted the precise situation we find ourselves in today. The fact of the matter is that all things are predictable, given sufficient information. If that's the case, then your future is predetermined, and all appearance of choice is illusory. I assure you that the Schrodinger's Cat experiment is absolute nonsense. The cat isn't both alive and dead simply because you don't know its state. It only appears that way to you because you lack knowledge of events within the box which the cat occupies. Just because I don't know what you'll be doing twelve hours from now doesn't mean that you'll be doing both everything and nothing simultaneously. You'll be doing a specific thing, predetermined by your instinct, conditioning and circumstances. You'll be twelve hours further along a path with many crossroads, but your instinct, conditioning and circumstances will govern any relevant decision making, making each turn obstructed, leaving you to continue straight along the same single path from birth until death without variance, because you were always going to follow that particular path. You were always going to do what you were going to do.

Laplace's demon used to give me sleepless nights … ;-) QM has demonstrated that total randomness does exist in the fabric of reality and therefore its ripple effect will show up. Laplace's demon cannot exist, unless you want to call God a demon … ;-)

originally posted by: akushla99

originally posted by: roadgravel
Saying something is true, like free will exists, because you think so isn't proof. People have fooled many times.

...but spending the money on an internet plan in advance, to turn a computer on, to log into ATS, to select a thread, to formulate a response - is proof of what?

Å99

It's proof of conditioning … sorry to burst your bubble.

originally posted by: Rapha

originally posted by: cuckooold
So, if free will is an illusion, does this affect the outcomes that occur as a result of our choices.

There is always free will where a person who has just lost their job could either accept it as a challenge or get their plane and fly it into a government building in the form of revenge.

If i remember correctly, this actually happened a few years ...

The 2010 Austin suicide attack occurred on February 18, 2010, when Andrew Joseph Stack III deliberately crashed his single-engine Piper Dakota light aircraft into Building I of the Echelon office complex in Austin, Texas, United States

Yahushua has given everyone a perfect path that everyone that if followed will lead back to His everlasting love.

Its a narrow uphill path, with many temptations (fatal detours, off cliff, dead-ends) on the way.

Its more common-sense. People need to ask themselves, 'where do they want their spirits to end up for eternity ?'
Do they want to exist with trust-worthy spirits for eternity or be surrounded by spirits seeking revenge on them for eternity.

Everyone has a choice.

What is the choice of a brain dead person?

originally posted by: Dark Ghost
That Free Will might not exist is a concept too scary for most to even contemplate. Everyone wants to feel they are in full control of their lives and that every "choice" they make has meaning.

If we consider Life as one gigantic Maze, it makes more sense. There is only one entry point and one exit point. How you reach that exit point after starting at the entry point might seem like a series of choices, but in reality there is only one route if you are to exit once you have entered.

A relevant link for those interested

Yes, "free will" is how I as an individual react and adapt to changes in the maze. It's a dynamic process that appears to be governed by free choices, but it's mostly conditioning.

I say mostly, because the 800 pound gorilla in the room is consciousness. Nobody knows what consciousness is, but we all "know" that we are conscious. Even if we all live in a simulation ;-)

originally posted by: AllIsOne

originally posted by: akushla99

originally posted by: roadgravel
Saying something is true, like free will exists, because you think so isn't proof. People have fooled many times.

...but spending the money on an internet plan in advance, to turn a computer on, to log into ATS, to select a thread, to formulate a response - is proof of what?

Å99

It's proof of conditioning … sorry to burst your bubble.

...so is your reply...sorry to burst your bubbles...

Å99

originally posted by: lightedhype
I do not compute. Every thread I read i make a choice whether or not to reply, I cannot predict it, it sometimes deals with how interested I am but usually it is just how lazy I am feeling in that moment.

And how can you say there is no free will when this test only applies to short term decisions? I mean people make unpredictable relationship decisions everyday back n forth. Also, a lot of sperm donors make the #ty decision of running out and not being a father instead of manning up everyday.

I do not know. Perhaps this is wishful thinking. I can see how this logic is certainly true and applies to most situations. But I cant see it for ALL decisions.

People choose to spontaneously help others everyday do they not? Even people who do not regularly do so.

I am choosing to leave my home of 20+ years and move to the South this Summer. It would be much easier to stay here in so many ways. But i am choosing otherwise.

This is all interpreted in our subconscious, our beliefs govern our will. 

I do not see how the above translates into no free will. We choose our beliefs do we not? Some people allow their beliefs to evolve over time. Others do not.

The fundamental question of free will lies in physics v. spirituality in my honest opinion. If you believe in ghosts and spirits than "free will" can be explained. But if you only believe in a physical reality, "free will" cannot be explained for the simple reason that every atom needs a source of energy (motor) to be moved. We live in a world that is causal - one thing leads to another. As neuroscience understands it at this time even our own private thoughts are based on electro-chemical processes that need to have a "motor, or first cause", otherwise they cannot exist. There is nothing in our reality that was created out of thin air, except the beginning of the universe where God was involved and physics as we know it breaks down ;-)

originally posted by: akushla99

originally posted by: AllIsOne

originally posted by: akushla99

originally posted by: roadgravel
Saying something is true, like free will exists, because you think so isn't proof. People have fooled many times.

...but spending the money on an internet plan in advance, to turn a computer on, to log into ATS, to select a thread, to formulate a response - is proof of what?

Å99

It's proof of conditioning … sorry to burst your bubble.

...so is your reply...sorry to burst your bubbles...

Å99

Ok, show me one (1) original thought you had today that was not based on conditioning.

a reply to: BigBrotherDarkness

alright listen. just because the universe doesn't necessarily have to have a purpose or function doesn't mean it doesn't have one. i dont believe in accidents. or a universe randomly poping into existence and randomly assembling into a thing that makes life.

originally posted by: AllIsOne

originally posted by: akushla99

originally posted by: AllIsOne

originally posted by: akushla99

originally posted by: roadgravel
Saying something is true, like free will exists, because you think so isn't proof. People have fooled many times.

...but spending the money on an internet plan in advance, to turn a computer on, to log into ATS, to select a thread, to formulate a response - is proof of what?

Å99

It's proof of conditioning … sorry to burst your bubble.

...so is your reply...sorry to burst your bubbles...

Å99

Ok, show me one (1) original thought you had today that was not based on conditioning.

It is not my position (for arguments sake) that this is the be-all-and-end-all...it appears to be yours - whether I respond, or not, dependant on a dice, or not - I will still need to decide to use a dice, or a pinwheel or a coin - assign it a meaning - and proceed...researchers can say what they want - which is exactly what you said - the research and its findings (because it includes the agency of its inquiry) is tainted by its own conclusion...i.e. Tell me how the research conclusion can be an original thought. (because you must be admitting that the conclusion is correct...right?).

Å99

a reply to: Astyanax

um? how so?

a reply to: cuckooold

Without reading your post I can assure you non of us are free. Everything you look at, smell, feel, hear will dictate your next move. Never do people think or feel they are being persuaded but everyone is.

You walk to the shop, to buy some bread. As you walk there (or drive) you see a family, adverts on the walls, people chattering, smells flow your way, imagination of past thoughts about present situations, etc.... this all adds to your next move. Do you get emotional seeing the family? Do you feel somewhat the need to browse the internet for a new phone because without your knowledge you saw a phone advert outside, maybe you heard a phone chime. You smelt a scent of perfume, makes you think about an ex or food you wish to now go buy.

Whichever option you (unconsciously make) will lead you into a whole new selection of choices, on and on.

Call it the butterfly effect.

originally posted by: AllIsOne
a reply to: pheonix358

But Neo took the pill and woke up … ?

If you mean accepted his lot and let his destiny unfold... then yes thats all it takes.

See, so many people want fame or fortune handed right in their grubby unwashed mits enmass... that would certinaly balance everyting right to equal wouldnt it? Then what mon frere...

So many people wanting and not working or working and not accepting... When it takes a village. Well, obviously society is that village and not some wild untamed country to be conquered, yet many fear te concrete jungle carry guns knives or whatever cause thar be shadows and all manners of human conditions the mind has been programmed with fer er against so ye better be prepared for all tose horror stories youve been reading as a reality instead of the likelyhood it isnt as feared as one imagines or was programmed to believe when so immersed to know better instead of self segregated pulling up the covers scared of that experience no sir monsters I like it under here with my pop gun thanks... my domain or area I am comfortable with.

Well those covers can be a town a small city a country club or whatever keeps one feeling safe with their Linus blanket of deluded reality even go so far to make laws that discriminate to make sure it stays looking the same with business or the public one sees or has to encounter at their local watering hole or resturant... and if these interlopers show up? Be sure to stare at them with a vehement brow beating like they are the ones crazy and in denial of reality, make sure they can vote too while youre at it, hell stick em in a part of town youll never visit and call it a ghetto and limit as many opportunities as possible so they wont edge out business or be competition to ol Bubba that rubs elbows with you during city hall meetings for your vote on his tax breaks.

Well seeing how it takes a village, and no one wants to share their village we have the big mean ol fed like a school marm coming to put baby in a corner because discrimination is wrong in the name of social harmony and justice. It takes a village also means it takes each and every person in it to make it function smoothly, so many entrenched of course rubbing elbows locally also effects the fed too and thats when corruption rears its ugly head and vested interests bitch and moan that they create jobs and without them getting free tax shelters and havens and lobbying against competition or rigging the political system for free reign society would fall apart... like several villagers wouldnt jump step happily into a farmer role and create some jobs or local industry themselves.

and thats the biggest lie of all that the people that make this country great te people in other countries that make them great are the same damned individuals that keep it all running and would jump in and keep it all running to their expertise if there was a change of scenery trimmed off the top middle and bottom limbs of that functioning so it can all function better. Not everyone wants the troubles unseen that comes with fame or mass fortune, people dont tell you those so you can keep that dream er delusion alive... when its just another slave boat with its own problems and issues.

So the real pill to swallow to wake up is accept that lot if its a bitter pill by the steady words of bitterness and unhappiness coming out of ones mouth? Then obviously change the scenery even that only takes place in ones own habitual mind patterns... theres were free will lay, it isnt who you are what you dream, its the work and effort one puts into it to make it something to no whine bitch and moan about... and happiness is sure to follow. Sure there are stumbling blocks detractors people saying you cant... well thats them trying to have their agenda not yours, and such people cant even control themselves for the most part so why let them control you? Thats breaking the chains and stepping into freedom.

When something jumps up to block ones progression or happiness, its an adversity we can learn from every adversity if we dont give up or give in and then start lashing out because youve allowed yourself to be resigned to a position others want you in instead of the position you want to be in... stuck people want people stuck with them. Some arnt stuck... some make money off of those stuck saying hey come see these stuck jackasses 5 bucks a pop then pay someone 10 bucks to go help them get stuck even more... then elbows his buddy hey look at that jackass helping those other jackasses out knee deep in it with them for just 10 bucks.

And PT Barnums circus wins again... due to all those suckers being born every minute waiting to be suckered and stuck or willing to pay to see all the stuck suckers.

This is obviously sort of where we all stand in society... and obviously the circus is non stop, so saying fine ima damned acrobat while you apprentice under the strong man is how its all played out. If the bearded lady winks at you dont be offended she knows the lion tamer if the strong man gets fresh... in other words youve got all the pills you need as nixon shakes your hand and hands you a badge.

Saying thank you very much as you leave the building is of course optional... but it is the polite thing to do.

a reply to: akushla99

The second remark is just comedy gold...boring, but comedy gold nonetheless.

Boring but funny? How can that possibly be? Bores aren’t funny.

I’ll tell you what’s funny: the extreme contortions you’re putting yourself through to avoid examining the possibility that free will does not exist. You’re performing some amazing acrobatics here, but mind you don’t put your back out.

What is it you fear so much about your unconscious self? Who knows, perhaps you are right to be afraid.

a reply to: AllIsOne

Ok, show me one (1) original thought you had today that was not based on conditioning.

Good luck with getting a straight answer!

a reply to: AVoiceOfReason

If the universe has a purpose, then presumably all elements within it are designed to serve a purpose. If an element is free to do as it pleases — act unpredictably — then it cannot be relied upon to serve the purpose for which it was invented.

Unless, of course, its purpose is precisely to introduce that element of unpredictability. But what purpose would that serve?

originally posted by: AVoiceOfReason
a reply to: BigBrotherDarkness

alright listen. just because the universe doesn't necessarily have to have a purpose or function doesn't mean it doesn't have one. i dont believe in accidents. or a universe randomly poping into existence and randomly assembling into a thing that makes life.

I decided to read if thats ok with you? It is infinite it has no beginning nor an end the same as consciousness, just because one mired in a limited subjective self due to ego grasping can grasp it? Try not holding onto that ego that limits and subjects one to the limited subjective experience... and is just simply is.

Why a infinte universe or unlimited consciousness must be subjected to your subjectivity so it makes sense to you... is of a selfish nature based on I can logic this out, I can emotionalize it meaning and yet all youre going to do is chase philosophy and cry yourself back to sleep... no closer to truth or reality than before because of what? Grasping concepts as truth... sure they may be relative truth to you as you experience it, sure others can share the same relative truth to support you in that subject but those sharing it are still by that very nature mired in subjectivity and missing out on the absolute nature... but hey you believe it exists and that it must have a purpose and blah blah blah all just more dung for the heap that grows nothing but more attachments.

I really wish words could convey reality in its absolute Id give them to everyone, though I try to point with clarity non stop so people can actually get as close as possible... sit down stfu turn off their ration and logical mind and let the experience beyond words reveal itself so one can get a taste of that infinite nature not become deluded by it waste time yakking about it and progress on into full on abiding in it not separate from it, not grasping around in the dark... but kapow right there at all times no self as theres no ego, no bias so theres no distinction no need for bubbles because the world comes to absolute peace... in realization instead of wallowing in ignorance and systems of greed and hate that cause separation duality self and other and suffering sickness old age and death and the whole crap has started right back up again... there is a way out and what I say is nothing new people have been pointing at it for 1000s and 1000s of years and others have been trying to cover it up and keep it all spinning is subjective duality and bias for 1000s and 1000s of years.

So hey your choice as free will but your belief will never conquer absolute reality... if you come face to face with it then youll turn blue in the face pointing at it too... its not as futile as it seems because it can and does happen all the time, but if its a glimpse? Ffs keep going... eventually there will be no difference in ones face or anothers.

a reply to: cuckooold

The concept of free will assumes we are not embodied, but something that controls the body. The concept of unfree will assumes that we are not embodied, but something that is controlled by the body. Both are assumptions, and both belong in myth.

a reply to: Aphorism

The concept of free will assumes we are not embodied

False.

The concept of unfree will assumes that we are not embodied

False.

Prove me wrong.

a reply to: Astyanax

I always understood that free will was regarding controlling one's actions. No one but ourselves are controlling our actions. Prove me wrong.