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originally posted by: AVoiceOfReason
so because our brain is programed to see patterns and have bias that means we dont have free will. determinism is f#$cking stupid.
originally posted by: nOraKat
a reply to: Restricted
opens your mind to the truth. You see things from wildly different perspectives, and the truth of our existence is shocking.
Which is?
originally posted by: Astyanax
a reply to: akushla99
I do claim to have free will, and I am questioning 'research' that says I don't.
You’re not questioning anything. You’re screaming with your fingers in your ears.
all I'm asking is for an explanation of how the 'research' conducted by folk claiming to have 'discovered' that free will 'may', 'perhaps', 'seemingly' does not exist - can be immune from its own findings...a very simple question...
You are right. However, it is futile to deny the truth.
This leaves us with a problem. One logical solution is to divorce the concepts of responsibility and free will. You are responsible for whatever you do, whether or not you ‘meant’ to do it.
Man is a machine. All his deeds, actions, words, thoughts, feelings, convictions, opinions, and habits are the results of external influences, external impressions. Out of himself a man cant produce a single action. Everything he says, does, thinks, feels - all this happens. Man cannot discover anything, invent anything. It all happens. To establish this fact for oneself, to understand it, to be convinced of its truth, means getting rid of a thousand illusions about man, about his being creative, and being consciously organizing his own life and so on. There is nothing of this kind. Everything happens - popular movements, wars, revolutions, changes of government, all this happens. And it happens in the exactly same way as everything happens in the life of the individual man. Man is born, lives, dies, builds houses, writes books, not as he wants to but as it happens. Everything happens. Man does not love, hate, desire - all this happens. But no one will ever believe you if you tell him he can do nothing. This is the most offensive and the most unpleasant thing you can tell people. IT IS PARTICULARLY UNPLEASANT AND OFFENSIVE BECAUSE IT IS THE TRUTH AND NOBODY WANTS TO HEAR THE TRUTH. It is one thing to understand w/ the mind and another thing to feel it w/ one's whole mass, to be really convinced that it is so and never forget it. (G.I. Gurdjieff, as recorded by P. D. Ouspensky)
originally posted by: akushla99
But, you see, all I'm asking is for (short of discussing the 'research' with the researchers) is an explanation of how the 'research' conducted by folk claiming to have 'discovered' that free will 'may', 'perhaps', 'seemingly' does not exist - can be immune from its own findings...a very simple question...
originally posted by: Astyanax
a reply to: akushla99
This question, you mean?
all I'm asking is for an explanation of how the 'research' conducted by folk claiming to have 'discovered' that free will 'may', 'perhaps', 'seemingly' does not exist - can be immune from its own findings...a very simple question...
A very simple answer: it isn’t.
Do you think that is an objection to the premise?
originally posted by: Dark Ghost
originally posted by: akushla99
But, you see, all I'm asking is for (short of discussing the 'research' with the researchers) is an explanation of how the 'research' conducted by folk claiming to have 'discovered' that free will 'may', 'perhaps', 'seemingly' does not exist - can be immune from its own findings...a very simple question...
There are two kinds of people in this world: those who think they know everything and those who know they don't. The former frequently use words such as "obviously, always, certainly" whereas the latter frequently use words such as "maybe, perhaps, seemingly."
originally posted by: NateTheAnimator
a reply to: Astyanax
You are right. However, it is futile to deny the truth.
The truth that we don't have free-will...? Science hasn't been able to substantiate whether or not free-will exists or not so I don't even subscribe to that concept. As I said to Dark Ghost,I find myself agreeing more with soft-determinism as we really are biological automatons much like most if not all life is..
This leaves us with a problem. One logical solution is to divorce the concepts of responsibility and free will. You are responsible for whatever you do, whether or not you ‘meant’ to do it.
There's no point in divorcing the concepts when they were never conjoined...You can still have free will and lack accountability. What I essentially am saying is that determinism deliberately removes that accountability by placing too much merit on the external and internal forces for the causality of most criminal and harmful behaviors in society.
It actually incentivizes more criminal behavior similar to how mental illness has been the key to many mass shooters and serial killers given lighter sentences or being sent to a psyche ward.
I even suggested a solution to this conundrum,make good use of Operant conditioning. Harsher penalties for those who plea determinism after committing a crime. Increase pay or bonuses to actively contributing members of society to reward people for their contributions. Motive and benefit of a suspect wouldn't increase accountability at all,much of the blame would be shifted to the other variables depending on the crime;e.g Child hood,family relations,friendships,romantic relationships,associates,diet,medical history and etc..
originally posted by: Dark Ghost
a reply to: BigBrotherDarkness
If you believe that this existence is the only form of existence, then what you say makes sense. I personally believe there may be more to the overall workings of the universe than this physical existence. Do I have proof? No. But I have no more proof that there is a non-physical existence than you do that Free Will exists. We are shaped by our past experiences, some of which cannot be accurately relayed to others.