Our concept of free will could all be an illusion, new research suggests.

a reply to: akushla99

...then those who think(?) they don't have free will are psychotic...

There, there. I understand how hard this is for judgemental types to swallow.

You can’t help denying it. It’s how you’re made. But the truth will out whether you dare to admit it or not.

a reply to: NateTheAnimator

Determinism removes personal responsibility of the actions of an individual, there are several reasons why that may seem scary to some folks who believe in free will. I could definitely see prosecutable criminals being let off on the basis that the heinous actions committed were due to his/or her internal biological forces(e.g increased adrenaline or other hormones) and that inevitably (s)he was going to commit this crime.

You are right. However, it is futile to deny the truth.

This leaves us with a problem. One logical solution is to divorce the concepts of responsibility and free will. You are responsible for whatever you do, whether or not you ‘meant’ to do it. The degree of responsibility and hence culpability could be based on a calculus of motive and benefit. Yes, the laws will have to be rewritten.

originally posted by: Astyanax
a reply to: akushla99

...then those who think(?) they don't have free will are psychotic...

There, there. I understand how hard this is for judgemental types to swallow.

You can’t help denying it. It’s how you’re made. But the truth will out whether you dare to admit it or not.

hahaha classic!
I'd hate to have to admit I had no control over what I did and thought - and used the passive/agressive to make myself feel good, or perhaps it would be comforting - I don't know - you probably do...hahaha...and the fact that you might actually believe it, makes it even funnier...classic!

None of the supporters(?) of the thrust of this 'research' are thinking very hard at all - oh that's right, there's no actual thinking involved - you just think you're thinking it hahaha...that's intense comedy...

Å99

a reply to: akushla99

I'd hate to have to admit I had no control over what I did

Yes, it is frightening. But consider how predictable your behaviour is. In thread after thread, I know exactly what stance you will take, what your manner will be and how you will respond to criticism. So far, on this thread, you have fulfilled my expectations to the letter. If you had freedom of will and choice, you could not be so blindly consistent.

a reply to: Itisnowagain

A

'You' do not have anything at all. There is no 'you' separate to what is happening - that is the illusion. It might seem as if there is a 'you' and 'life' - there isn't. There is only ever what is happening.

Absolutely, bull's eye! The I, you, we, etc do not actually exist - they are all concepts, even though the one framed as 'I am' is the most one that is most sacred, but a concept nevertheless. One should hold onto it until breakthrough obtains. There is no way a concept can liberate itself any more than one can take a fat iron rod and sand it down to a fine needle (hence the patient, quiet waiting stance). This absurdity is often framed as a question and it boils down to this: Can the shadow of THAT, through its own effort, become or revert to THAT, the substance?

In Zen literature or elsewhere, it's said that one patiently waits at the "I Am station" - open, exposed, vulnerable = complete surrender. It is then and only then that Ultimate Reality will manifest and take that 'shadow' unto itself, the merging or sublime union with the Substance, Essence or 'Ground of Be-ness'. This implies the extinction of the shadow/shadow-self, an event which the Buddha likens to the blowing out of a candle - that's what Nirvana means. The Rescue will come at its own sweet will, and it is often metaphorized as a boat, ferry or ship whose mission is to take the patient seeker/questor (= the shadow-self) to "The Other Shore". The "Rescue" is also termed "Salvation/salvific" in religious literature, and is somewhat reminiscent of the image of the Biblical Prophet Ezekiel being secreted away in the "wheeled chariot" and similar accounts of UFO's ferrying people to wherever but these are only broad similarities happening under different contexts.

originally posted by: Astyanax
a reply to: akushla99

I'd hate to have to admit I had no control over what I did

Yes, it is frightening. But consider how predictable your behaviour is. In thread after thread, I know exactly what stance you will take, what your manner will be and how you will respond to criticism. So far, on this thread, you have fulfilled my expectations to the letter. If you had freedom of will and choice, you could not be so blindly consistent.

...and I have known everyone elses, and who would appear, and when...as someone else noted - it's an interesting topic...with regards to any of my comments (which have never been addressed with any civility or seriousness) what I have said with regards to the 'research' cannot be refuted - and no amount of childish, faux chiding really is addressing what I have written, ostensibly as a response to the 'research' and its 'conclusions'...thus far...otherwise words & phrases such as 'could be', 'suggests' 'seems', 'might' would not be used - I have not used them, however, the 'researchers' have...I would suggest that they would need an escape route from the cul-de-sac they have driven into...

As an addendum, I'd suggest the OP be addressed, not the random personalities commenting upon them directly...because none of us are clearly responsible for what We are typing...according to the 'research' - which leaves the little issue of "I have read and understand the T&C of ATS - and I am responsible for my own posts" (paraphrase)...

Å99

a reply to: akushla99

So I take it you are a believer in the existence of Free Will? Firstly, why don't you define the term for us so we can better understand your position...

originally posted by: Astyanax
a reply to: akushla99

I'd hate to have to admit I had no control over what I did

Yes, it is frightening. But consider how predictable your behaviour is. In thread after thread, I know exactly what stance you will take, what your manner will be and how you will respond to criticism. So far, on this thread, you have fulfilled my expectations to the letter. If you had freedom of will and choice, you could not be so blindly consistent.

I'd be careful imagining I knew someone on the basis of random interweb posts...I wouldn't be so bold as to even try to admit it...I'm old enough to be far more forgiving of the medium and the real personalities using it to make any observations outside of noting an avatars interest in posting in a particular topic thread...and as far as anyone can be aware - if I broke anyones 'expectations' by not responding...it would be a moot point of absolutely no consequence...

Å99

originally posted by: Dark Ghost
a reply to: akushla99

So I take it you are a believer in the existence of Free Will? Firstly, why don't you define the term for us so we can better understand your position...

The 'research' deals in short-term decisions, I believe the figure was 3 seconds...What does the research say about long-term decisions?

Å99

originally posted by: Dark Ghost
a reply to: akushla99

So I take it you are a believer in the existence of Free Will? Firstly, why don't you define the term for us so we can better understand your position...

...and You also 'must' be a believer, otherwise You wouldn't have Agreed to the T&C, and therefore confirmed Your non-belief by agreeing that this was the case - confused?...I'm not...

Å99

a reply to: akushla99

I don't agree with the way this particular experiment was conducted or all of the conclusions drawn. However I do agree with the overall premise that everything is predetermined and we probably don't have Free Will.

Now, care to define Free Will for us?

originally posted by: Dark Ghost
a reply to: akushla99

I don't agree with the way this particular experiment was conducted or all of the conclusions drawn. However I do agree with the overall premise that everything is predetermined and we don't have Free Will.

Now, care to define Free Will for us?

...and I don't agree with its conclusions, for the very reasons I have so annoyingly posted hahaha

Free will has nothing to do with 'growing wings' and producing suitcases with millions - these are devices used in debates/arguments that are ridiculous...

Free will is making the long-term decision at 19yo to get a job while studying, to earn the money, to get into a prestigious university, to research the concept that we don't have free will - get it?

...or hanging 'round with the wrong crowd at 19yo, leading a life of crime, and finding yourself in a prison cell for a protracted stint - complaining about how little freedom you have...

Å99

originally posted by: akushla99
...and I don't agree with its conclusions, for the very reasons I have so annoyingly posted hahaha

Free will has nothing to do with 'growing wings' and producing suitcases with millions - these are devices used in debates/arguments that are ridiculous...

Free will is making the long-term decision at 19yo to get a job while studying, to earn the money, to get into a prestigious university, to research the concept that we don't have free will - get it?

And that "long-term decision" to study was just chosen purely by random chance? You didn't need to have a job so you could pay for studying or living expenses? You didn't need to obtain that degree so you could get a high paying job in the future?

As the research deals only with short-term decisions often we act automatically - or so we think because it is what we see needs to be done and were almost in a servant manner get on with it.

I would like to see a lot more research on this simply because having had an interest in the past in astrology and noticing how i react or deal with things was so well explained I have always put the free-will into the 'hard box' to understand.

I would like to leap on to our emotional responses without derailing this because I do think this is related. These are something we don't have a choice about until we do the mental parenting to ourselves afterwards and one could argue are programmed into us before we are born. If these are preordained then going back to free will why should that not be the same. Its a difficult scientific problem to explain.

I hate having to make an important decision ands agonise over it but so often circumstances control what choices I have and ultimately the decision I made. I do think that man has an arrogant side to his personality, some more than others.
I understand in the past we saw ourselves as a collective but then started to evolve our own separateness and took off making decisions for ourselves (perhaps) but we do think we are the most important species ever to have lived on the planet regardless of intelligence and tell us a creator made us this way. Then we go into his image and ours etc thereby egotistically linking him not to no other species except to ours - look at the art work of God etc. The concept we don't rule the world or have free will is going to get stuck in an awful lot of throats if this is the case. Even the Ancients knew better with their animal headed Gods. Fascinating subject and important if we are to ever understand ourselves.

originally posted by: Dark Ghost

originally posted by: akushla99
...and I don't agree with its conclusions, for the very reasons I have so annoyingly posted hahaha

Free will has nothing to do with 'growing wings' and producing suitcases with millions - these are devices used in debates/arguments that are ridiculous...

Free will is making the long-term decision at 19yo to get a job while studying, to earn the money, to get into a prestigious university, to research the concept that we don't have free will - get it?

And that "long-term decision" to study was just chosen purely by random chance? You didn't need to have a job so you could pay for studying or living expenses? You didn't need to obtain that degree so you could get a high paying job in the future?

Are You asking me rhetorically, or are You suggesting that such an individual had no choice at any point, making any decision, about anything?

Å99

originally posted by: akushla99
Are You asking me rhetorically, or are You suggesting that such an individual had no choice at any point, making any decision, about anything?

What I am suggesting is that every outcome is predetermined, but we do not realise it is because we are under the illusion that our decisions are meaningful.

Consider the concept of the slave who thinks he/she is free.

originally posted by: Dark Ghost

originally posted by: akushla99
Are You asking me rhetorically, or are You suggesting that such an individual had no choice at any point, making any decision, about anything?

What I am suggesting is that every outcome is predetermined, but we do not realise it is because we are under the illusion that our decisions are meaningful.

Consider the concept of the slave who thinks he/she is free.

...riiigghhtt-y-o then...

Consider the posters on ATS that would try to convince me (why, I have no idea) that 'everything' is predetermined...I can't think of a better analogy of slavery...a slave to predeterminism telling me I am the slave hahaha

Å99

a reply to: akushla99

I was willing to give you the benefit of the doubt at first, but now I am convinced that you are mainly here to try and get people riled up. You want a confrontational argument, not an intelligent debate.

Good luck with your endeavours...

a reply to: akushla99

my comments (which have never been addressed with any civility or seriousness)

Never? How lucky you are to have received such unanimous instruction in good manners from your peers. I am sure you have worked out what they are trying to tell you by now.

I'd be careful imagining I knew someone on the basis of random interweb posts...

Quite so. Empathy, intuition, experience and practice are needed. Misanthropes, juveniles and those on the autism spectrum need not apply.

I wouldn't be so bold as to even try to admit it...

I believe you are wise to refrain. But everybody does not have to be like you.

if I broke anyones 'expectations' by not responding...it would be a moot point of absolutely no consequence...

This response, too, was rather typical: old-style psychoanalysts called it ‘projection’ — the ascription of one’s own hard-to-handle feelings on to someone else.

a reply to: akushla99

Free will is making the long-term decision at 19yo to get a job while studying, to earn the money, to get into a prestigious university, to research the concept that we don't have free will - get it?

No, I don’t get it. Please explain.

Not that I think you can.