Audio comm of BCM between a Raptor and a Typhoon. Lakenheath....

I was waiting for
"Where did he goooo?"
"Where did whooo goooooo?"

It still always make me laugh when hearing mock engagements that people assume because a target has been locked and a missile launched that it's a kill.

Just remembering my training being updated to remind my lot how to use Rapier and Sea Wolf in emergencies for the 2012 olympics protection (my lot aren't really well known for operating such things, we always preferred to get in close to do the business) but the quote from the old instructor was nice "Always remember a missle launch is the BEGINNING of the fight, not the end"

Even the latest and greatest AAM's have nothing like a 100% kill rate against skilled opponents

Text

originally posted by: TheBogmonster
It still always make me laugh when hearing mock engagements that people assume because a target has been locked and a missile launched that it's a kill.

Just remembering my training being updated to remind my lot how to use Rapier and Sea Wolf in emergencies for the 2012 olympics protection (my lot aren't really well known for operating such things, we always preferred to get in close to do the business) but the quote from the old instructor was nice "Always remember a missle launch is the BEGINNING of the fight, not the end"

Even the latest and greatest AAM's have nothing like a 100% kill rate against skilled opponents

I understand, actually. The reason I assumed a 'kill' was there was no further comm between the two aircraft. If it was the beginning of the engagement, I would assume a drastic increase in comm and counter moves by the Typhoon.

I would also think that a Fox 2 would be after a lock-from the targets 'six' and pretty darn close, distance-wise, when compared to a Rapier-Sea wolf launch.

(Perhaps this comm was edited, omitting the actions of the Typhoon to avoid the Fox 2?)

a reply to: nwtrucker

Yes obviously a Fox 2 is an IR missle launch so generally a WVR launch but even then another common myth is that it's a instant thing and it simply isn't, it's usually 4-5secs to get a lock and launch the missle and at by then your target is aware, good combat pilots are taught to NEVER maintain the same path for more than 6-7seconds when in close range combat.

Defeat manoeuvres for various missiles (enemy and allied )are practised repeatedly by the RAF (and most other air forces) and normally revolve around maintaining energy and hard sustained turn rates combined with ECM if available. Of course the F22 wasn't really intended to get in close, more to stick to BVR and hope it's targets weren't too skilled in avoiding it's missile shots.


Oh and as a little aside, due to an Air France aircraft havings comms problems last night in UK airspace, two Typhoons were QRA scrambled to intercept, one was clocked in excess of 840Knots at 1000ft during initial phase with external tanks and full A2A missle load, causing widespread earthquake reports across Yorkshire due to the supersonic footprint. Damn I always hated the fighter jocks and their toys!

a reply to: TheBogmonster

You can't simulate that kind of thing without actually shooting a missile, or having some kind of advanced telemetry. Unless they're on a range with telemetry systems, like Nellis, then it's a matter of holding the gun sight on the opponent and calling a launch to get a kill.

a reply to: TheBogmonster


A couple of points in your last post....first, my understanding is the F-22 was designed as culmination of pilot 'wish-lists'. That included BCM. It is obviously far away superior BVR to any current or near current platform out there, yet,
WVR, 1v1, the Raptor is superior overall to any, including the EF. The only drawback is the TV induces faster energy loss and the low by-pass PW F-119s are slow on energy recovery making 1v2 or more a little more tricky tactics-wise.


If that Typhoon made the speeds you've quoted with full externals and 1,000 ft., then the M1.2 top speed listed for the EF is as much bovine excrement as the specs on the F-22......

a reply to: nwtrucker

Yes the F22 was designed to dominate the airspace in BVR terms, in the WVR situation it's nowhere near as clear cut. A clean-ish Typhoon is generally accepted to be a match for it when it gets close and nasty, TV as you stated is a double edged sword, the Rapor is a fearsome airframe but suffers from lack of off boresight and IR targetting (which is the Typhoon's trump card against all current stealth fighter platforms are they are hot targets) thankfully they shouldn't ever meet in real combat

As for the specs of both airframes, of course full capabilities are never made public, in the UK it's easy to check Typhoon loads on take off as they exit over housing estates on QRA takeoff and when an immediate threat is logged (as in last night) supersonic clearance is automatically granted on brakes off.

Always fun to watch pilots oush the airframes past the airshow nonsense and into real work performance.

a reply to: TheBogmonster

Actually, it doesn't suffer from lack of off boresight capability anymore. They're carrying AIM-9Xs now, and are most of the way through certifying the Scorpion helmet cueing system for the pilots, if they're not done with testing already.

a reply to: Zaphod58

Yes the 9x's are of course in use - my error in not mentioning that, last I'd heard from an DoD guy up at Warton was the integration of the helmet system on the Raptor was proving to be a little more 'interesting' than was envisaged

a reply to: TheBogmonster

It has been, but they've got the worst of the bugs worked out. Everything about the F-22 proved to be difficult, but they overcome it in the end. They just need to find room in the budget to supply them.

a reply to: Zaphod58

Yes that bird has had a difficult life, could never quite understand why an IRST wasn't part of the initial design, planners had to realise that in it's design lifetime opposing stealth platforms would be operational?

a reply to: TheBogmonster

US doctrine is to blame. They're only just now implementing IRST for any US platforms.

originally posted by: TheBogmonster
It still always make me laugh when hearing mock engagements that people assume because a target has been locked and a missile launched that it's a kill.

Just remembering my training being updated to remind my lot how to use Rapier and Sea Wolf in emergencies for the 2012 olympics protection (my lot aren't really well known for operating such things, we always preferred to get in close to do the business) but the quote from the old instructor was nice "Always remember a missle launch is the BEGINNING of the fight, not the end"

Even the latest and greatest AAM's have nothing like a 100% kill rate against skilled opponents

First 4 letters of Missile spell what???

That's Right MISS!!!!

originally posted by: TheBogmonster
a reply to: nwtrucker

Yes obviously a Fox 2 is an IR missle launch so generally a WVR launch but even then another common myth is that it's a instant thing and it simply isn't, it's usually 4-5secs to get a lock and launch the missle and at by then your target is aware, good combat pilots are taught to NEVER maintain the same path for more than 6-7seconds when in close range combat.

Defeat manoeuvres for various missiles (enemy and allied )are practised repeatedly by the RAF (and most other air forces) and normally revolve around maintaining energy and hard sustained turn rates combined with ECM if available. Of course the F22 wasn't really intended to get in close, more to stick to BVR and hope it's targets weren't too skilled in avoiding it's missile shots.


Oh and as a little aside, due to an Air France aircraft havings comms problems last night in UK airspace, two Typhoons were QRA scrambled to intercept, one was clocked in excess of 840Knots at 1000ft during initial phase with external tanks and full A2A missle load, causing widespread earthquake reports across Yorkshire due to the supersonic footprint. Damn I always hated the fighter jocks and their toys!

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