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The Mandela Effect Can No Longer Be Denied: Berenstein Was The Tip of The Iceberg

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posted on May, 18 2016 @ 04:45 AM
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originally posted by: tigertatzen

originally posted by: Phage
a reply to: tigertatzen




It is not difficult in the least to fool one.

Nor are they of much use if the subject actually believes what they are saying.
That does not make what they are saying accurate.


That was what I was getting at. If someone planted false memories, only they would know they were false. The person being programmed would believe those memories to be 100% real, and consequently would not cause a twitch on a polygraph if questioned about them. It would not be an accurate measure of veracity.


wait.. planting false memories? what are you talking about now?
it isn't the memories that are false, it's the reality that changed, right?
if not then I misunderstood this conspiracy and it's even more ludicrous now...




posted on May, 18 2016 @ 04:47 AM
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a reply to: Phage

haha delusional?
I doubt I am delusional for remembering essence and not essences.
I could however, remember it wrong. doesn't mean I'm delusional. hence why I wanted hypnosis and a lie detector.
to find out what it is I actually remember.
if it in fact was essence, then that would go a long way for me personally, to believe this is real.
if I did in fact remember essences, well case closed. again that might not be enough to prove anything, but for my own sanity that would be enough.
I just wanna know what it was I remember.
to be a little more sure it's confabulation or not.
edit on 18-5-2016 by alienDNA because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 18 2016 @ 04:49 AM
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a reply to: alienDNA

I could however, remember it wrong. doesn't mean I'm delusional.

Correct.
If, on the other hand, you insist that you don't remember it wrong...
If you insist that anatomical renderings are wrong...



posted on May, 18 2016 @ 04:55 AM
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originally posted by: Phage
a reply to: alienDNA

I could however, remember it wrong. doesn't mean I'm delusional.

Correct.
If, on the other hand, you insist that you don't remember it wrong...
If you insist that anatomical renderings are wrong...


which is why I wanted hypnosis and a polygraph.
to find out my real memory.
since I can't prove to myself I remember anything, since confabulation is so common, I would first like to find out my true memory.
without it, all this discussion and subjective memories doesn't mean anything. we have to rule out confabulation first, and what better way than hypnosis and polygraph?
if you got a better way I'd like to try that.



posted on May, 18 2016 @ 05:04 AM
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a reply to: alienDNA




have to rule out confabulation first, and what better way than hypnosis and polygraph?

Hypnosis. No, not really. And all a polygraph does is show if you're stressed when answering a question.

So as I see it you have two choices:
1) "Memory is a funny thing."
2) "There is something very special about me and some other people."

Take your pick, but when there are people who say that your memory sucks don't blame them for saying so.



posted on May, 18 2016 @ 05:08 AM
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and please be clear that MEs, whatever they are (most likely perfectly normal as I've stated all the time) are NOT due to insanity or delusions.
and not lies either.
we really do remember something as something else.

now, whether that is due to a normal brain function or something sinister, well, wouldn't hypnosis and a polygraph at least shed light in one direction or another?

if not, then what method or way is there to even begin to prove either way?
and if we can't do that, then what is the point of discussing all of this... we can't prove it so obviously it's confabulation...
it's scary to see people believing in such extremes as presented here (quantum shifts, parallell universes, memory implants (wtf) and more) when a perfectly sane and logical explanation already exists.

so what way is better than what I suggested, and we could do that instead.

edit on 18-5-2016 by alienDNA because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 18 2016 @ 05:13 AM
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a reply to: Phage

none of those choices offer any proof. at all.
just creates even bigger gap between those who do not experience MEs and those who do.
being a perfectly normal experiencer myself, i of course go to the logical assumption that I remember it wrong.
but it would be nice to be more sure what my real memory is, since not me or you or anyone can be sure of any memory we have, since the mind fills in the blanks on its own whether we want to or not and can get details very wrong and it happens all the time!
it's normal.

so then, what way to tell a confabulated memory from a real memory?
again, wouldn't hypnosis and polygraph be a good choice. and if not, then again, what way is there.
edit on 18-5-2016 by alienDNA because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 18 2016 @ 05:16 AM
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originally posted by: alienDNA
a reply to: tigertatzen

where did I say anyone was making this up?
I've said plenty of times now that I have several MEs myself.
confabulation is not intentional.

why on earth would you lie to a polygraph in order to prove this theory? you're not making any sense.

furthermore, how would one go about to fool a polygraph under hypnosis? i think you misread everything I wrote :p

edit:
and even if it wasn't conclusive, I would want to know what it is I personally remember.
was it essence or essences?
i can't be sure even if i think it was essence and would argue that it was, I can't prove it.
hypnosis and a polygraph would go a long way for me, even if not conclusive.


First, I did not accuse you of saying any such thing. I simply made a statement, that we're not fabricating these memories. Therefore, using a lie detector test would not work.

If we've had false memories deliberately implanted in our subconscious, they will be completely authentic to us. We will not know, even in our subconscious mind, that they are false. So even under hypnosis, a polygraph will not show whether or not those memories are false.

Did you actually ask me why someone would lie on a polygraph? Did I read that correctly? The number one reason someone would lie to a lie detector test would be to try and escape consequences for something that they did. It's the reason for the test in the first place.

And, to support my statement that they are unreliable, I pointed out that they can be fooled. How does that not make sense?

To recap: Polygraph tests are generally unreliable. For example, they can be fooled. That's why they're not admissible as evidence in court. They also can flag "false positive" results, because they collect vital data such as heart rate and blood pressure of the subject, compared to a relaxed baseline. Which is precisely how they can also be fooled. Therefore, as a scientific method for determining the veracity of memories, they are inherently flawed and would not be a suitable choice.

Now with that in mind, say we decided to use that method anyway. It still is only going to indicate if a person is being deliberately deceitful or not. Well, if you have false memories implanted deep in the subconscious, regardless of their authenticity, you are not going to know the difference. They would be 100% genuine to you.

We could hypnotize you for days on end and you'd never cause that polygraph to alarm even once, because YOU WOULDN'T BE MAKING IT UP.

To your subconscious mind, those memories would be as real as if you had actually experienced them. You would not know the difference. Your body would not react as it would were you lying, therefore the polygraph would not indicate anything with which to prove they were false.

It simply would not work. I'm not trying to downplay your idea. It was a good idea. It just would not be an accurate way to solve this.



posted on May, 18 2016 @ 05:17 AM
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originally posted by: Phage
a reply to: tigertatzen

Nor would the results from a delusional person be valid.



You're right.



posted on May, 18 2016 @ 05:18 AM
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a reply to: alienDNA



so then, what way to tell a confabulated memory from a real memory? again, wouldn't hypnosis and polygraph be a good choice. and if not, then again, what way is there.

None that I know of.
Like I said, the choice is really yours. Understand that our minds are not the steel traps we would like them to be, or insist there is something very special about yourself.



posted on May, 18 2016 @ 05:20 AM
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a reply to: Phage

that's incredibly dismissive and will not comfort these people who believe in memory implants and or worse.
for you and me perhaps, it's enough to chalk it up to 'memory sure is funny' but it doesn't prove anything.
edit on 18-5-2016 by alienDNA because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 18 2016 @ 05:25 AM
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originally posted by: alienDNA

originally posted by: tigertatzen

originally posted by: Phage
a reply to: tigertatzen

Perhaps you should read the entire thread. There are many different theories being discussed here. That is one of them.

But if you prefer the alternate reality angle, it still applies. You would believe the memories you feel are most "real", so a polygraph would be useless as a method of verifying anything. Whatever your subconscious mind believes to be real will be your reality. And since reality is subjective, there is no way to prove it with a polygraph. The only way that would work is if you were deliberately lying to yourself.




It is not difficult in the least to fool one.

Nor are they of much use if the subject actually believes what they are saying.
That does not make what they are saying accurate.


That was what I was getting at. If someone planted false memories, only they would know they were false. The person being programmed would believe those memories to be 100% real, and consequently would not cause a twitch on a polygraph if questioned about them. It would not be an accurate measure of veracity.


wait.. planting false memories? what are you talking about now?
it isn't the memories that are false, it's the reality that changed, right?
if not then I misunderstood this conspiracy and it's even more ludicrous now...



posted on May, 18 2016 @ 05:26 AM
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a reply to: tigertatzen

you keep saying ".. if we have implanted memories".
why even go there?
again you misread or misunderstood what I initially wrote.
or, I didn't make myself clear enough.
doesn't matter though.
no, you didn't read that correctly.
I said why would someone lie in order to prove this theory. you can't dissect that sentence and remove the latter part.
wouldn't a person want to prove he is NOT lying about his / her MEs?
in any case, you keep telling me that polygraphs aren't reliable. I know I wasn't born yesterday.
and you keep referring to "... if someone implanted false memories then... " but why do you go there?
why is that even an option for you?

and again, I wanted to use a polygraph to help tell what the true memory is of something. not to prove or disprove the entire theory.

but to distinguish a real memory from a confabulated one and to the best of my knowledge there is no other way to do that then what I suggested.
edit on 18-5-2016 by alienDNA because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 18 2016 @ 05:30 AM
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a reply to: alienDNA




for you and me perhaps, it's enough to chalk it up to 'memory sure is funny' but it doesn't prove anything.

That's what I said, isn't it?



posted on May, 18 2016 @ 05:34 AM
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a reply to: Phage

yeah. but me and probably a lot of others want proof. even if it's just slight proof for one or the other, its something.
and there's gotta be a way to prove a false memory from a real one. my suggestion wasn't very welcome and that's fine but then come up with something better first, THEN attack my suggestions as being poor.



posted on May, 18 2016 @ 05:36 AM
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a reply to: alienDNA



and there's gotta be a way to prove a false memory from a real one. my suggestion wasn't very welcome and that's fine but then come up with something better first,

I gave you mine. They're no better or worse than yours.

People have been shown that their "memories" are wrong. They don't accept it.
Now what?



posted on May, 18 2016 @ 05:37 AM
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originally posted by: alienDNA
a reply to: tigertatzen

you keep saying ".. if we have implanted memories".
why even go there?
again you misread or misunderstood what I initially wrote.
or, I didn't make myself clear enough.
doesn't matter though.
no, you didn't read that correctly.
I said why would someone lie in order to prove this theory. you can't dissect that sentence and remove the latter part.
wouldn't a person want to prove he is NOT lying about his / her MEs?
in any case, you keep telling me that polygraphs aren't reliable. I know I wasn't born yesterday.
and you keep referring to "... if someone implanted false memories then... " but why do you go there?
why is that even an option for you?


Ok. I am not sure why you've taken issue with my example. But I am not the first to mention implanted memories here. I'm sorry if that bothers you, but it is one of the possible theories. I do not understand why you appear to believe that this is a foreign concept on this thread, but perhaps you simply have not read all of the posts.

Plenty of folks decided before I ever did to "go there". I simply find it far more plausible a theory than "time shifts" or "alternate universes" or some interdimensional accident...or any of the many other suggestions that have been offered here. No need to freak out over it. It's just a possibility among several.



posted on May, 18 2016 @ 05:40 AM
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a reply to: Phage

well that's the problem and there has to be a way.
it's too dismissive to just go "you're wrong and your memory is false" for a lot of people as they are 'sure' they are remembering correctly.
I want to offer these people at least something.
cause diving into the rabbit hole head first in a subject like this is very hazardous and psychiatric conditions are not far away.

there has to be some way to prove that they are just confabulating. without insulting them and calling them (us) delusional or Plain wrong.



posted on May, 18 2016 @ 05:43 AM
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a reply to: tigertatzen

but I asked you. cause I am talking with you.
that's why. I don't care if other people jump of a bridge I wanna know why are YOU?
cause atm I'm talking with you.
could you answer that question?
it's not actually for me the answer is for.
it's for yourself.
why is memory implants more probable than the very common confabulation?

in any case, how would you like to go about, in proving a memory real or false?
because that is something we have to do before anything else. right?



posted on May, 18 2016 @ 05:44 AM
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originally posted by: alienDNA
a reply to: tigertatzen

you keep saying ".. if we have implanted memories".
why even go there?
again you misread or misunderstood what I initially wrote.
or, I didn't make myself clear enough.
doesn't matter though.
no, you didn't read that correctly.
I said why would someone lie in order to prove this theory. you can't dissect that sentence and remove the latter part.
wouldn't a person want to prove he is NOT lying about his / her MEs?
in any case, you keep telling me that polygraphs aren't reliable. I know I wasn't born yesterday.
and you keep referring to "... if someone implanted false memories then... " but why do you go there?
why is that even an option for you?


I'm also not sure what you're saying there at the beginning. I didn't say anyone wanted to lie to prove any theory. Where are you getting that from?? You seem to be reading far more into what I'm saying than what I actually mean.

If you know they're not reliable, then why continue to insist that they are the perfect method for discerning real from fake? What's real to you is real...nothing can change that. We seem to be going around in circles here.



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