It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.

Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.

Thank you.

 

Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.

 

Transgendered children: should a parent be able to chemically alter a child's sex?

page: 13
17
<< 10  11  12    14  15  16 >>

log in

join
share:

posted on Apr, 29 2016 @ 07:22 AM
link   

originally posted by: ThirdEyeofHorus
a reply to: Freija

Sadly anything from Huffpo is leftist propaganda
Here's the worthy opponent to your huffpo www.thenewamerican.com...

The ultra-leftist Southern Poverty Law Center, described by critics as a radical anti-Christian hate group, was recently implicated in a federal terrorism case after a deranged homosexual activist, citing SPLC hate propaganda, tried to massacre employees at a pro-family group's headquarters. Now, the self-styled “civil rights” outfit is stepping up its campaign to indoctrinate your children. The controversial Alabama-based group, widely ridiculed and criticized even by left-wing leaders for shady practices and deception, recently unveiled a new Common Core-aligned “educational” campaign. It is designed to inject even more pro-homosexual, pro-transgender propaganda into school classrooms across America, along with identity politics, collectivism, “white privilege,” “social justice,” and more. However, the “Teaching Tolerance” materials, which the SPLC claims are used by schools and educators reaching “millions of students,” are attracting scrutiny and outrage. Indeed, the propaganda would likely upset just about any parent, regardless of their political views. Under the guise of promoting what the intolerant SPLC calls “tolerance,” for example, students in kindergarten through second grade subjected to the SPLC “anti-bias” propaganda will learn, among other things, to ignore their parents and become cross-dressers if they feel like they were born in the wrong body. That lesson comes from the book 10,000 Dresses by Marcus Ewert, one of several SPLC-recommended texts for K-2 “teaching tolerance” lessons on “gender” highlighted by activists and media reports.
So how fun is that.... They are deliberately teaching the kids to ignore their parents. That's always been the goal of Marxist secular humanist values clarification and this current trend is values clarification on steroids.



This post and article, made the huff Po article look like it was created by divine intervention....


And I'm the one who pointed out the problems with the huff Po story, lol.

The huff Po article at least tried to be slick with their propaganda. The new American one above just flopped its propaganda out on the table..... Lol and it's propaganda was SOOO big, all the worlds conspiracy sites went limp.




posted on Apr, 29 2016 @ 07:37 AM
link   
a reply to: JoshuaCox

Technically, you are not treating gender dysphoria, or gender fluidity when you embark on a course of treatment.

What you are treating is the symptoms caused by that person's condition. The problem isn't that the child is gender non conforming, the problem is that he/she is depressed / suffering from anxiety and other symptoms that impact on their quality of life. The goal of any sort of treatment is to achieve a quality of life for that individual that is measurably improved.

As has been stated many times in this thread, that does not always mean hormone therapy or surgical intervention. (In fact this would typically be the last resort.)



posted on Apr, 29 2016 @ 07:45 AM
link   

originally posted by: Freija
a reply to: JoshuaCox

Why do you even care about this anyway? What's it to you?

Oh gee, here's another Huff Po article if you liked that one. Ignore the title but please do read it. Several may apply?

How to Spot Anti-Trans Concern Trolls



Reread the OP, I state exactly why I posted this...

Screw it lol..


I was having a debate about the (ridiculous) NC bathroom law, which lead to this topic (and I linked it to the others participating from the original thread).

In that conversation, they were describing swapping a kids name and dress at 4(!) and begining hormones before puberty, 9 to 13. Which I thought was crazy, for reasons in types a dozen times. So I wanted to see what others thought...

Really calling me a troll??? But much huh?

A) I specifically (not perfect at it but try) to never use words like " you" or other words that might seem as if I am attacking the poster, rather than the argument..

2) I have been against no trans/gay issue besides the making a swap to a 4 year old and giving hormones to a 9 year old. Which I personally don't find trolling nor bigotry...


3) I have been asking and/or debating replies, but almost every fact y'all have posted has turned out to be false...

A) there are no adverse effects to stopping puberty till adulthood AND that there are studies that show it. (All of the studies sited by proponents are only of people who started puberty "on time."

B) the majority (almost all was the claim I think) of trans kids stay trans. Fair enough the 20% study is wrong, but there is no study that says it's almost all either...



So as far as I have seen here, and I am not a conservative, republican nor an evangelical....

There is absolutely going to be a price to pay for stopping puberty till adulthood (at least the bone loss and psyc stuff).


The diagnosis is based on no test. It is 100% a psyc evaluation, or repeated ones to be fair....but there are no definitive tests.

The diagnosis is wrong AT LEAST half the time, prob way more...




Those are the only actually measurable metrics and I don't think the numbers work...



posted on Apr, 29 2016 @ 08:01 AM
link   

originally posted by: redshoes
a reply to: JoshuaCox

Technically, you are not treating gender dysphoria, or gender fluidity when you embark on a course of treatment.

What you are treating is the symptoms caused by that person's condition. The problem isn't that the child is gender non conforming, the problem is that he/she is depressed / suffering from anxiety and other symptoms that impact on their quality of life. The goal of any sort of treatment is to achieve a quality of life for that individual that is measurably improved.

As has been stated many times in this thread, that does not always mean hormone therapy or surgical intervention. (In fact this would typically be the last resort.)



Well that is kinda what the whole thread is debating migo.


A) if a 4 year old is smart enough to know what gender he will want to live as for the rest of his life....or to put it better, if a parent could have enough evidence from a 4 year olds actions, to decide to swap his name, dress and attempt to publicly swap them.


B) is it a good idea to begin medical procedures/prescription before puberty.


I'm assuming that being gay/trans is an issue of brain wiring. Some times DNA makes a mistake and wires a boy's brain, like a girls.
We can't rewire brains, but we can rewire their body somewhat.

The only problem I have is making life long (mainly) medical changes to kids. Kids they can't even seem to correctly diagnose. All on totally subjective metrics that only measure, unmeasurable things like feelings and emotions.



posted on Apr, 29 2016 @ 08:08 AM
link   

originally posted by: Freija
a reply to: JoshuaCox

Why do you even care about this anyway? What's it to you?

Oh gee, here's another Huff Po article if you liked that one. Ignore the title but please do read it. Several may apply?

How to Spot Anti-Trans Concern Trolls




Resorting to name calling because you don't like my opinion on a subject ( especially when we agree about everything but the childhood part) fits the mold of the nearly nonexistent cartoon liberals that conservatives pretend exist.

You are making their point for them.



posted on Apr, 29 2016 @ 10:24 AM
link   

originally posted by: JoshuaCox

In that conversation, they were describing swapping a kids name and dress at 4(!) and begining hormones before puberty, 9 to 13.


Hormone BLOCKERS - - - not hormones

It delays puberty a few years til the teen is old enough to make his/her own decision.



posted on Apr, 29 2016 @ 10:37 AM
link   

originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: JoshuaCox

In that conversation, they were describing swapping a kids name and dress at 4(!) and begining hormones before puberty, 9 to 13.


Hormone BLOCKERS - - - not hormones

It delays puberty a few years til the teen is old enough to make his/her own decision.



Hormone or hormone blockers is irrelevant. Either way the point is the same.... Go back and edit every "hormones" and replace it with hormone blockers, and no ones points are invalid, nor is anyone's opinion changes...

Textbook semantics.


No it doesn't...all the BS about -

" they can quite taking them whenever, and their body will still progress normally."

Isn't true....

For sure they will prob face bone loss and psyc changes, but there could be way worse effects. The first case of it happening (in America at least) was in 2007. Assuming that kid was 10, they are only 19 now.

All the previous studies eluded to in both pro trans websites and here, are based on hormone BLOCKERS being given to non trans kids with early onset puberty, and they stopped taking them at normal puberty age. THOSE KIDS didn't have any issues.

That is a totally different animal than stopping puberty indefinitely or until you are adult aged.


Then you also have the fact that this has a really high misdiagnosis rate.



posted on Apr, 29 2016 @ 10:42 AM
link   



posted on Apr, 29 2016 @ 11:02 AM
link   

originally posted by: JoshuaCox

Then you also have the fact that this has a really high misdiagnosis rate.



LINK?

Your opinions are only opinions. Back them up with fact.



posted on Apr, 29 2016 @ 11:39 AM
link   
a reply to: JoshuaCox

For the 'nth' time...

Its not legally permitted to prescribe drugs of any kind unless you're a qualified professional and can back your recommendation up with proven medical case history.

Trust me, getting hormone blockers prescribed is an extremely difficult thing to do and requires more than just your local family doctor whipping out a prescription form. It requires validation from an endocrinologist, psychologist, and the consent of the legal guardian if the patient is under the age of consent.

I'll agree with you to some degree, if these medical interventions were being handed out like candy, then no, obviously that's not a good thing and I would be against it. However, show me the case of where these steps were taken and a 'mistake' was made.

Its a fallacy and I would suggest the nightmare scenario you are continually describing has no basis in reality. Where as there are plenty of cases to support my points on how medical procedures and treatment policies are carried out legally and to the benefit of the patients concerned.



posted on Apr, 29 2016 @ 11:42 AM
link   

originally posted by: kaylaluv
a reply to: JoshuaCox

www.sciencecodex.com...



Read the article, they only tested 120 people and the people in that study started treatments at 16, AFTER puberty was nearly complete. So of course they would have less bone loss then some one who skipped puberty completely.

Which is about the age everyone on here is cool with people starting treatments.

The throw away line at the end, I'm not sure works...

They claim the earlier you start the less bone loss you would experience, but named no info on what that meant...

Is it "the one younger person we tested, didn't seem to have any issues...."Or is it a valid part of the study?

If they tested enough to considered a valid study, wouldnt they have sited that???



posted on Apr, 29 2016 @ 11:52 AM
link   
a reply to: JoshuaCox

No. You need to re-read it. The hormone blockers were given first to prevent puberty BEFORE the age of 16. At the age of 16, hormones were given. This is standard procedure for all trans kids going through this.


To study the bone health of adolescents with gender identity disorder who received puberty suppression treatment with GnRHa, the researchers followed up 127 such patients who later chose to receive "cross-sex hormones" to induce sexual characteristics of the opposite sex.

At the start of GnRHa treatment, all patients had normal bone mineral density, Delemarre-van de Waal reported. During GnRHa treatment, bone density gradually increased in the younger patients but slightly decreased in the older ones. However, after the teens received cross-sex hormones, bone density caught up, similar to the increase that occurs naturally in puberty, she said. All patients had normal or near-normal bone mass for their age after cross-sex hormone therapy.


In case you don't understand - GnRHa treatment is the puberty blocker.
edit on 29-4-2016 by kaylaluv because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 29 2016 @ 11:55 AM
link   

originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: JoshuaCox

Then you also have the fact that this has a really high misdiagnosis rate.





LINK?

Your opinions are only opinions. Back them up with fact.



I posted a huffington post site scew pages back. It explains exactly how much we don't know. We spent a few pages debating the 20% success rate, (a prob flawed, but only study anyone has mentioned).

So assuming the study was really wrong, where would the real number be?

I'm more then doubling the study results, and guessing it is 50%.



posted on Apr, 29 2016 @ 11:58 AM
link   

originally posted by: kaylaluv
a reply to: JoshuaCox

No. You need to re-read it. The hormone blockers were given first to prevent puberty BEFORE the age of 16. At the age of 16, hormones were given. This is standard procedure for all trans kids going through this.


To study the bone health of adolescents with gender identity disorder who received puberty suppression treatment with GnRHa, the researchers followed up 127 such patients who later chose to receive "cross-sex hormones" to induce sexual characteristics of the opposite sex.

At the start of GnRHa treatment, all patients had normal bone mineral density, Delemarre-van de Waal reported. During GnRHa treatment, bone density gradually increased in the younger patients but slightly decreased in the older ones. However, after the teens received cross-sex hormones, bone density caught up, similar to the increase that occurs naturally in puberty, she said. All patients had normal or near-normal bone mass for their age after cross-sex hormone therapy.


In case you don't understand - GnRHa treatment is the puberty blocker.



Im going to assume you accidentally omitted the part where it said they started at 16....


"study the bone health of adolescents with gender identity disorder who received puberty suppression treatment with GnRHa, the researchers followed up 127 such patients who later chose to receive "cross-sex hormones" to induce sexual characteristics of the opposite sex. Fifty-three boys transitioned to the female sex by taking estrogen, and 73 girls transitioned to the male sex by receiving testosterone, the authors reported. They received cross-sex hormones beginning at age 16 years. This age is in agreement with Dutch law and The Endocrine Society guidelines for treating transgender persons, which Delemarre-van de Waal helped develop."

Even though what you copied, conveniently stopped a couple sentences before the age they started....
edit on 29-4-2016 by JoshuaCox because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 29 2016 @ 12:05 PM
link   

originally posted by: JoshuaCox

originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: JoshuaCox

Then you also have the fact that this has a really high misdiagnosis rate.





LINK?

Your opinions are only opinions. Back them up with fact.



I posted a huffington post site scew pages back. It explains exactly how much we don't know. We spent a few pages debating the 20% success rate, (a prob flawed, but only study anyone has mentioned).


I've read plenty of articles, as I've been following this subject for about 20 years.

The positiveness outweighs the small percentage of possible negative effects.

Who and when the info comes from is extremely important.






edit on 29-4-2016 by Annee because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 29 2016 @ 12:09 PM
link   
a reply to: JoshuaCox

They started taking hormones at 16. They started taking puberty blockers before the later stages of puberty, which would be anywhere from 11-13 yrs old.

I don't know if you are just really confused, or it's deliberate, but you keep getting the facts wrong in this debate.
Let's summarize the facts:

Kids at 4 yrs of age don't get any chemical/drug intervention

If a trans kid and their parents along with a team of medical professionals (pediatrician, psychologist/psychiatrist, endocrinologist) decide that it is in the child's best interest to stall puberty, then puberty blockers are given at around the age of 11-13.

When the trans kid is around 16, if they and their medical team decide it's okay to move to receiving hormone treatment, they do so at that time.

This is the standard procedure. The study I linked was following the standard procedure.



posted on Apr, 29 2016 @ 12:16 PM
link   
a reply to: Annee
Ohhh I don't know... Anything in your head .....



posted on Apr, 29 2016 @ 12:36 PM
link   

originally posted by: redshoes
a reply to: JoshuaCox

For the 'nth' time...

Its not legally permitted to prescribe drugs of any kind unless you're a qualified professional and can back your recommendation up with proven medical case history.

Trust me, getting hormone blockers prescribed is an extremely difficult thing to do and requires more than just your local family doctor whipping out a prescription form. It requires validation from an endocrinologist, psychologist, and the consent of the legal guardian if the patient is under the age of consent.

I'll agree with you to some degree, if these medical interventions were being handed out like candy, then no, obviously that's not a good thing and I would be against it. However, show me the case of where these steps were taken and a 'mistake' was made.

Its a fallacy and I would suggest the nightmare scenario you are continually describing has no basis in reality. Where as there are plenty of cases to support my points on how medical procedures and treatment policies are carried out legally and to the benefit of the patients concerned.


No one (at least me lol) has claimed that parents could make this decision solo, nor claimed you didn't need a couple professionals to agree.

The questions I have are....

1) is there anyway a 4 year old can give you enough evidence to make the decision to swap name/dress to the opposite sex?


2) the fact there is no measurable, repeatable test. It is all based on psyc evaluations, which I personally thing are inherently subjective.

3) apperently healthcare professionals do not have a high success rate at the diagnosis. Really both ways...in NOT noticing what is up and failing to diagnose AND diagnosing gay and feminine people as transgendered.

4) the long term effects on people...
Never reaching puberty or starting it at adulthood cannot be "free". I just cannot comprehend that you could chemically start puberty at 22, would have zero adverse effects.


5) what are the social ramifications for a child who becomes the face of a political issue that a big percentage of the community will instantly veiw negatively, and may actively attempt to stop the child from progressing.


I don't think trans/gay issues are fake, nor choices. I'm an evolution guy and think people are born the way they are wired. But no matter my personal opinion of right and wrong, I would never allow my kid to be used as a political punching bag. When they aren't old enough to assume responsibility of handling it.

Maybe it's because, assuming I was trans, that's how I would handle it. I would keep my personal life to myself and play whatever BS role was necessary for me to build a nice private little life I could live with.



posted on Apr, 29 2016 @ 12:41 PM
link   

originally posted by: ThirdEyeofHorus
a reply to: Annee
Ohhh I don't know... Anything in your head .....



You mean the head that's clear thinking and not clouded by a self-righteous "magical" belief system?

We could do this all day.



posted on Apr, 29 2016 @ 12:56 PM
link   

originally posted by: JoshuaCox

Really calling me a troll???


I didn't call you a troll. I said to ignore the title of the article. Did you read it?

JoshuaCox, unless you are worried that your daughter might be transgender, why are you so concerned or why is it one damn bit of your business what other families do? What is best for a child is up to their parents and their doctors to decide, not you. It's pretty dang audacious that you would even be discussing the private health decisions that another family makes that aren't one damn bit of your business.

If this doesn't affect you in any way and if you're lost in the minutia and getting all worked up about blockers and hormones or desistence or whatever, then you are indeed concern trolling. If you don't understand what that is, read the effing article.

I've posted a link to Jade and her parents story. She was on blockers and is now 21. Blockers have been used in Europe over 20 years to treat trans kids and the use of GnRH analogues to treat kids with early puberty in use since the '80's. Are you also aware that this course of therapy costs $15,000 to $21,000 PER YEAR and is not covered under many insurance plans. That's for the drug alone and doesn't include doctor's fees or counseling/therapy.

The Endocrine Society from 6 years ago suggest starting blockers at Tanner Stage 2 and HRT at 16.


New guidelines are due out this summer recommending blockers but the wait until 16 for HRT guideline is being changed to whatever is appropriate for the individual's situation which again is none of your business or mine.


edit on 4/29/2016 by Freija because: (no reason given)



new topics

top topics



 
17
<< 10  11  12    14  15  16 >>

log in

join