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A man is a man, and a woman is a woman....

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posted on Apr, 29 2016 @ 04:47 PM
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a reply to: samerulesapply

Yes, it is hard to understand for those of us who haven't dealt with it ourselves. When the conscious self-awareness matches the body, we don't "feel" like anything - we just are us and it all works out okay.

The closest we could ever come to would be to imagine that people our whole lives were calling us a gender that we knew for a fact we weren't. Think of a Twilight Zone episode where when you were young, everyone referred to you as a little girl, gave you a girl name, gave you dresses and dolls and said what a good little girl you were - but you are the you that you are now and have always been, and you are absolutely certain that you're a boy. It would be very confusing for you, and frustrating to not be able to fully communicate what you KNOW to be true. Now imagine that you looked down at yourself naked and saw a vagina - you would be horrified. What the heck is that doing there?! That's not me! Your parents point it out and say, "see, you are a girl". But you know you're not, and you don't know how that thing got there. It would probably start to feel like the world just went upside down.

I know that's not exactly the same, but it goes a little towards how transgender people feel. I know that right now, if everyone started insisting that I was a guy, called me a guy name, told me I had to start going to the men's room, and didn't allow me to act like I would normally act, it would be awful. Especially if that went on for years. I would start to get depressed because I would feel like I was losing myself.




posted on Apr, 29 2016 @ 05:17 PM
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a reply to: kaylaluv

Sorry, you're right I don't think I'll ever understand.

Maybe I'm ignorant... I don't particularly care what grown ups do, but I don't accept that it's harmless and isn't influencing young children.

I remember seeing strange people on TV as a kid and being beyond confused. People like boy George, I remember my parents' reaction to it, my grandad. Times were different then.

You see, how I'm looking at this, now...being in my late 30's - it really does appear that there has been a contrived, and quite succesful I might add, effort to normalise certain behaviours.

Now, like I said - I couldn't give a hoot what people do in their private lives...but people have to appeciate that this is influencing young children. People have a right to want to protect their children from something they disagree with. People are entitled to filter out what they believe are negative influences on their children. I fully appreciate that.

Since my childhood int he 80's I've seen this become more and more accepted, and I believe it's a form of conditioning or brainwashing. I don't really think it's a healthy road for society to take but I've little control over the matter.

People need to wake up and think about what they're doing...kids don't need to be seeing men in dresses use the little girls room, it will affect how they think about gender and sex.

This is undeniable, in the last 30 years I've seen how effective this has been, as sexual promiscuity and homosexual/transgender lifestyles become more prevalent.

I think it's a selff-perpetuating condition that is snowballing, the more accepted and normal it becomes the more young children will grow up with these strange desires.

Reading back over the thread, those in support are saying that transgender folk or whatever are prone to being suicidal...if that's the case we need to figure out why people are growing up with what are, quite frankly, delusions...and tackle it proper.

We need to stop allowing children to be subject to illicit and often times deviant influences.

Sorry to be so blunt but that's really how I feel about it. Making concessions and altering the norms in society is only adding fuel to a fire.

And, as I'm in my later half of my 30's, yes I would be shocked if I suddenly lost my manbits and developed a vagina.

Waking up with an inny bit where there was once an outy bit would knock anyone for six...even if I felt like a woman and this happened to me, I'd be perplexed.



posted on Apr, 29 2016 @ 05:41 PM
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Look, here - you posted this:


a reply to: iammrhappy86

That all sounds great, until the kid reaches puberty. Then, irreversible changes happen. So many of these kids have nightmares about going through puberty, because becoming an adult version of the gender they do not identify with is the worst thing they can imagine. Some of them are willing to kill themselves if they have to go through puberty. '

If your kid is telling you point blank that they will end their own life if they have to go through those permanent changes, do you just say "too bad, love ya"?


You then later got this response:

a reply to: kaylaluv

We all go through puberty. Its a natural thing, and you should support your kid and encourage him to love himself for who he is. He is perfect the way he is, and its important to recognize that and be ok with it.

You think shooting your kid with chemical hormones before his body has fully matured is a good solution?

There are plenty of adults who successfully changed sex to a point where you won't be able to tell, and they went through puberty naturally like the rest of us.

YOU as a parent should know better than to let your kid make serious life altering decisions at a young age... They are too young to make these decisions.

And a developing body should not be introduced to chemicals produced in a lab.... Let it mature naturally. Then alter it if you wish, at that point you'll be a mature adult capable of making your own decisions after careful and thorough consideration.


And you responded with this:

a reply to: iammrhappy86

So it sounds like you are telling the kid to go ahead and kill him self. Good to know.


Which is absurd, and actually quite nasty.

I put it to you that it's allowing influences like those you're promoting that is making kids grow up with these feelings and becoming suicidal.

If this confusion makes kids suicidal isn't it best to figure out how ti stop it manifesting in the first place? Yours is a hollow and ill-thought out argument.

If we continue as is I guarantee you that in 30 years time there'll be far more suicidal children who want something that is unrealistic.

Why encourage a condition that apparently cannot be treated and makes people suicidal? Anyone who has experienced this should be aware enough to realise that it's a serious problem that needs properly addressing instead of encouraged.

I honestly didn't want to be rude but the more I thought about it, and that claim you made against that other member...tellign them they want to see kids commit suicide, pretty disgusing and rather low tactic if you ask me.

Tell me, what solutions are there to prevent a child hitting puberty and becoming what they naturally are? Nothing! You seek to encourage a condition that is incurable and makes people suicidal?

My mind cannot comprehend...the logic employed.
edit on 29-4-2016 by samerulesapply because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 29 2016 @ 06:30 PM
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a reply to: samerulesapply

You are speaking from a place of ignorance. Obviously you have done no research on this as I have. You have not been around someone who is living through this hell. It seems so easy to say "just tell them to love themselves the way they are". Jesus Christ, if it were that easy.... we wouldn't be having threads like this.

It makes me so angry to hear people say how parents should deal with this situation when they haven't experienced it themselves. It makes me angry to hear that there are parents out there who ignore their children's pleas for help. It makes me angry to hear that there are parents out there who tell their children to shut up and just be the gender that matches their genitalia. It's killing these children to be told that. KILLING THEM!

So yeah, when I read that someone says "just tell them to love themselves", it makes me angry, because I know that if that's all a parent did when faced with this problem - the kid WOULD end up killing themselves or at least they would try.

Kids don't make this decision all by themselves. I have repeated this so many times, I'm sick of it. There is a whole team of medical professionals working with the kids and the parents to make these decisions. There has been much success using the protocol of puberty blockers and hormones in teens - the teens who are lucky enough to have parents willing to go through this process with them are waaaaay happier than the teens whose parents just said "you're the gender you were born with so be quiet about it".



posted on Apr, 29 2016 @ 06:41 PM
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a reply to: kaylaluv
I would give your last two posts in this thread a million stars if I could.




posted on Apr, 30 2016 @ 12:32 AM
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a reply to: kaylaluv

I never said they should love themselves and shut up about it.

It makes me angry that people are so selfish that they'll completely ignore reality...that epople will teath their kids...you CAN get your own way if you're stroppy enough.

You can be a girl...even though your not.

That's not a healthy lesson to teach anyone.

But, yeah - I'm ignorant...I'm not one of the 'me, me, me...what I want is the most important thing in the world andI shall get my own way by hook or by crook, reality notwithstanding' crew.

Yes...I'm ignorant as hell...thanks for pointing that out, you've been most helpful.

I'll ask again, before my head explodes...why do you want children to openly embark on a lifestyle that you claim makes them unhappy?

Sorry to break it to you but puberty happens, is supposed to happen...sounds to me like some people need to understand that things are what they are...but no.

that's ignorant...you aren't what youn are, you are what you want to be or think you are.

That's not ignorant or selfish...but I am.

Got ya.



posted on Apr, 30 2016 @ 02:02 AM
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a reply to: samerulesapply

I'm going to reply to you and explain so you head doesn't explode but please use the hand rails and fasten your seat belt.

Used in the context that it has been, "ignorant" doesn't mean your are stupid, it means you lack information. More specifically, you lack the medical and scientific information backed by research done from the 1920's and intensified from the 1950's through today. It is also obvious that you have never actually known someone trans and have absolutely no awareness of the social and medical issues involved particularly when it comes to transgender children and adolescents.

This is not some new phenomenon, it has existed throughout all of history but what is new is the awareness of it and acceptance of the therapies developed in the last 65+ years to treat it. If you are actually interested download the Standards of Care for the Health of Transsexual, Transgender, and Gender Nonconforming People that is followed by all major medical associations as published by the World Professional Association for Transgender Health (WPATH)

I have posted rather extensively on this subject and if you would like to actually learn something about it so you don't get called ignorant by the people who are familiar with the facts, some of my other writing can be found here and here and here or heck, just go to my profile and look through my post history.

Until you grasp the gravity, complexity and seriousness of this being a life and death matter for some of these kids and understand how they are treated and raised affects their satisfaction with life and their success, health and productivity as adults, please don't be afraid to say this is something you don't really know what you're talking about as speaking without the facts does demonstrate ignorance. This is ATS. The motto here is "Deny Ignorance".

Thanks.



posted on Apr, 30 2016 @ 01:00 PM
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a reply to: Freija

I'm going to opt for willful ignorance, thanks.

Who said anything about being stupid? I don't think that's an issue here, I'm sure some really intelligent people are trans just as some very intelligent people are completely unaware.

I don't think I'm either stupid or particularly intelligent, but yeah - ignorance will do me fine.

As long as you're happy and safe, fair enough. Personally, I think if something is causing people to feel suicidal it needn't be encouraged.

I don't have kids...but bottom line is if I ever do I'll go out of my way to hide my children from these kinds of influences...because it's has seriously messed some people up...apparently made some suicidal.

Keep kids away from negative influences that make them suicidal...I don't believe people are born 'feeling' like the opposite sex...it's ridiculous.

I believe you're influenced by things you see and hear as a child.

And that's that.
edit on 30-4-2016 by samerulesapply because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 30 2016 @ 01:06 PM
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a reply to: samerulesapply

Not willing to view anothers viewpoint and then claiming you are ok with being willfully ignorant isnt really a wise way to be. In short you are saying nothing will change you r mind so replying to you in th e first place was a needless exercise.



posted on Apr, 30 2016 @ 01:12 PM
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a reply to: yuppa

No it wasn't...my stand on this issue is no different to the person I just replied to.

Essentially, what you're saying is that I should buckle under the weight of an opposing argument. But their arguments proved nothing to me.

I could aim the exact same statement at them.



posted on Apr, 30 2016 @ 01:14 PM
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a reply to: Freija

You are not willing to accept my viewpoint - it's not a wise way to be.
edit on 30-4-2016 by samerulesapply because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 30 2016 @ 01:14 PM
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a reply to: yuppa

See?



posted on Apr, 30 2016 @ 01:42 PM
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originally posted by: samerulesapply
a reply to: yuppa

See?


She asked you to read her links. you declined. And choose willfull ignorance. Thats what im commenting on. Then you both could had DEBATED th e points. with more knowledge. she wasnt trying to force anything on you.



posted on Apr, 30 2016 @ 02:07 PM
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a reply to: samerulesapply

These kids are suicidal when their parents tell them to be quiet about their gender dysphoria feelings. When the parents listen to the kids and get them help (including puberty blockers, hormones, therapy, etc.), they aren't suicidal anymore. See the difference?

Telling a kid who has gender dysphoria that you don't believe people are born feeling like the opposite sex and that it's ridiculous = a suicidal kid.

Telling a kid who has gender dysphoria that you believe they are suffering and you will get them the help they are asking for = a much happier, non-suicidal kid.

That's that.

Here's an example of a kid whose parents felt the same way you do. That kid was terribly unhappy and committed suicide.


"After 10 years of confusion I finally understood who I was. I immediately told my mom, and she reacted extremely negatively, telling me that it was a phase, that I would never truly be a girl, that God doesn't make mistakes, that I am wrong. If you are reading this, parents, please don't tell this to your kids," the note says. "Even if you are Christian or are against transgender people don't ever say that to someone, especially your kid. That won't do anything but make them hate them self. That's exactly what it did to me."


www.cnn.com...

Here's an example of a kid whose parents listened to her and got her help. She went on puberty blockers and is now a high school student on hormones and is happy and healthy.

abcnews.go.com...



posted on Apr, 30 2016 @ 02:15 PM
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They want you to see 5 lights when there are actually only 4.


edit on 30-4-2016 by TheBulk because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 30 2016 @ 03:44 PM
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originally posted by: samerulesapply
I'm going to opt for willful ignorance, thanks.

With "willful ignorance" being your chosen position, not opting out of an intelligent discussion makes you look rather foolish. In other words, "I don't know what I'm talking about, won't listen to what anyone else has to say but I'm still going to debate this."




Who said anything about being stupid?

Well, now that you've mentioned it again... I'll flat out call myself stupid for wasting my time replying to a brick wall but others might be reading here that don't have masonry for brains.


Personally, I think if something is causing people to feel suicidal it needn't be encouraged.

Suicidal ideation and attempt, depression, anxiety, eating disorders, self-mutilation, cutting, etc., are symptoms of the condition when it is repressed or ignored. Addressing the problem is to alleviate these things and minimize suffering. Why do you think parents go to the extremes they do to help their children? Because it's fun or the trendy thing to do?


I don't have kids...but bottom line is if I ever do I'll go out of my way to hide my children from these kinds of influences...because it's has seriously messed some people up...apparently made some suicidal.

Outside influences do not make kids transgender and by the same token, nor can they make kids not transgender. You can't beat, punish or pray it away. Nice to know you would "hide" your kids and isolate them locked away in a room with blinders to keep them pure. This condition has existed long before television or the Internet or hell, before the printed word and is just part of normal human diversity and always has been.


Keep kids away from negative influences that make them suicidal...I don't believe people are born 'feeling' like the opposite sex...it's ridiculous.

As a parent of one of these kids, it is your attitude that would make them suicidal, not their condition. If you bothered to learn even the basics you would know this and you would know this "feeling" is at the fundamental core of personality and hellishly tormenting and deeply painful in the very heart and in the soul of these kids. This is something that has touched my family personally and I can tell you it is anything but ridiculous - it is deadly serious.


And that's that.

Well, I suppose as someone that doesn't have kids but thinks they know best how to raise them and what other parents should do with their kids based on your complete and acknowledged ignorance, that would be that. Fortunately, other parents love their children unconditionally, educate themselves about this condition and do what is best for them so they can grow up to be healthy, happy and productive adults. If they don't, they will lose their children and those are the facts.



posted on Apr, 30 2016 @ 04:07 PM
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a reply to: yuppa

And I chose not to read it.

Nobody claimed anything was forced on me.

I do not have the time to sit down and research anything, I was simply doing what others who were participating in the thread were doing, taking part.

I'm not researching the topic...at all, nor do I intend to. I'm not required to in order to take part in this thread.

I've said my bit...and it is what it is. I am concerned about other issues that I regard more important than this, to be honest...I shan't be dedicating a huge or significant part of my life researching this subject.

I said I chose ignorance, willingly.

why do you care so much how one single person feels about it?

I care because people are wrongly claiming that it isn't harming anyone, and I don't think that's true. I think it is influencing young people more, if you think I'm wrong...great.

I think real ignorance is in your inability to accept the simple fact that there are and will be people who disagree with you.

Just forget about it.



posted on Apr, 30 2016 @ 04:12 PM
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a reply to: Freija

Yeah...you have a point, I'm not willing to listen or try to understand your viewpoint.

Nor are you mine...at least I'm not ignorant of my ignorance.

Forget about it.



posted on Apr, 30 2016 @ 04:21 PM
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originally posted by: samerulesapply
a reply to: Freija

Yeah...you have a point, I'm not willing to listen or try to understand your viewpoint.

Nor are you mine...at least I'm not ignorant of my ignorance.

Forget about it.


Why in the hell would anybody value a viewpoint from somebody who not only knows nothing about the subject matter but isn't even interested in learning about it?

That viewpoint is worthless, no matter what is being discussed. If a person is doing that, they have no interest in discussion but instead only wish to share their uninformed opinion.



posted on Apr, 30 2016 @ 04:28 PM
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a reply to: Abysha

The title of the thread is a man is a man and a woman is a woman, it's not about some study or whatever that I know absolutely nothing about...who conducted it, what...when, why...you guys come to this thread, with this title, to dispute the subject.

I'm agreeing with the OP...so what are you talking about?

you expect me to embark on a research project to learn about this stuff? right on, that's not ignorant of any of you.

This is the faith, religion and theology forum...this is not the forum you're looking for.

Again, I acknowledge and accept that I am ignorant on certain topics and am happy with that. If I'm going to spend time researching a particular subject it will be something that I'll benefit from in some way. this is of no use to me.

Sometimes it's good te be able to ignore things, certain things.

Forget about it.



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