It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.

Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.

Thank you.

 

Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.

 

The games of Rosicrucians, Illuminati, and other secret societies...

page: 4
1
<< 1  2  3   >>

log in

join
share:

posted on Sep, 22 2005 @ 02:53 AM
link   
The Steve Jackson Illuminati game has been around for at least twenty years. It's not the company's only controversy either. I recall an incident where the CIA raided the company and confiscated a lot of their material after they published a cyber-punk style hacking module for the GURPS system. The whole thing was rather ridiculous.

Of course this symbolism is found in games of all sorts as well as music, movies, literature, comic books (we could talk for hours about the underlying esoteric symbolism of the X-Men for example), etc. I don't think that you can assume that because someone utilizes symbols from any mythology in a game or any other artistic endeavor that they are out to convert the masses. They live in the world, they pick up on these ideas and symbols out of the zeitgeist and they utilize them in their work because that's what all of these forms of media are, a communication, the stringing together of symbols to transmit an idea from one individual's brain to another's. You yourself partake in this everyday, utilizing language and philosophy rooted in concepts that are "pagan" or "heathen". I especially wouldn't get worked up over characters in a video game named Shiva or Ifrit as these are not entities that are the exclusive intellectual property of free masons or anyone else.

Games themselves figure frequently in mythologies. Many systems tell stories of divinities engaging in matches of celestial chess. In Norse mythology, the few survivors of Ragnarok collect the surviving artifacts of the Aesir including their golden gaming boards and pieces. If something is one of the few surviving elements of the end of the world it must be significant.




posted on Sep, 22 2005 @ 02:24 PM
link   

Originally posted by Cicada
The Steve Jackson Illuminati game has been around for at least twenty years. It's not the company's only controversy either. I recall an incident where the CIA raided the company and confiscated a lot of their material after they published a cyber-punk style hacking module for the GURPS system. The whole thing was rather ridiculous.


So the CIA randomly raids and confiscates materials huh? I'd not heard that theory before. In fact, it seems to support the idea that Steve Jackson does a great deal of research into these things (as he himself has said) and is meticulous about its coagulation.


Originally posted by Cicada
Of course this symbolism is found in games of all sorts as well as music, movies, literature, comic books (we could talk for hours about the underlying esoteric symbolism of the X-Men for example), etc. I don't think that you can assume that because someone utilizes symbols from any mythology in a game or any other artistic endeavor that they are out to convert the masses. They live in the world, they pick up on these ideas and symbols out of the zeitgeist and they utilize them in their work because that's what all of these forms of media are, a communication, the stringing together of symbols to transmit an idea from one individual's brain to another's. You yourself partake in this everyday, utilizing language and philosophy rooted in concepts that are "pagan" or "heathen". I especially wouldn't get worked up over characters in a video game named Shiva or Ifrit as these are not entities that are the exclusive intellectual property of free masons or anyone else.


Random symbols don't mean anything to me. Patterns and intention however do. When there's a pattern and intention, then I think it's time to take notice. You think the warlock in World of Warcraft coincidently has a hexagram at her feet when casting harm onto an opponent? Really, what are the odds? That'll send your calculator into a tailspin I'm sure.

The point is to be aware of what's truly influencing us. To shrug and say "eh, it's a symbol, so what?" is not denying ignorance by any stretch of the means. We know that exposure generates comfort. It's a word called - familiarity. Becoming cozy with things we do not understand or are subjected to unconciously should be sending off an alert, should it not?


Originally posted by Cicada
Games themselves figure frequently in mythologies. Many systems tell stories of divinities engaging in matches of celestial chess. In Norse mythology, the few survivors of Ragnarok collect the surviving artifacts of the Aesir including their golden gaming boards and pieces. If something is one of the few surviving elements of the end of the world it must be significant.


I spend a lot of time gaming. I've 'lost' myself in gaming a time or two *cough, Evequest, cough*. This can be bad for a number of reasons. Influence being one of them. A switching on of "hm, what if" and "this seems interesting" to the pursuit of it as a constant, consistent lifestyle negatively impacting (if not eliminating all together) the important things in our lives. The game wants us to play, we fall in love, and we play. One cannot serve two masters. Who's behind it all? Look at the symbols.

[edit on 22-9-2005 by saint4God]



posted on Sep, 22 2005 @ 10:51 PM
link   

Originally posted by saint4God

Originally posted by Cicada
The Steve Jackson Illuminati game has been around for at least twenty years. It's not the company's only controversy either. I recall an incident where the CIA raided the company and confiscated a lot of their material after they published a cyber-punk style hacking module for the GURPS system. The whole thing was rather ridiculous.


So the CIA randomly raids and confiscates materials huh? I'd not heard that theory before. In fact, it seems to support the idea that Steve Jackson does a great deal of research into these things (as he himself has said) and is meticulous about its coagulation.


Originally posted by Cicada
Of course this symbolism is found in games of all sorts as well as music, movies, literature, comic books (we could talk for hours about the underlying esoteric symbolism of the X-Men for example), etc. I don't think that you can assume that because someone utilizes symbols from any mythology in a game or any other artistic endeavor that they are out to convert the masses. They live in the world, they pick up on these ideas and symbols out of the zeitgeist and they utilize them in their work because that's what all of these forms of media are, a communication, the stringing together of symbols to transmit an idea from one individual's brain to another's. You yourself partake in this everyday, utilizing language and philosophy rooted in concepts that are "pagan" or "heathen". I especially wouldn't get worked up over characters in a video game named Shiva or Ifrit as these are not entities that are the exclusive intellectual property of free masons or anyone else.


Random symbols don't mean anything to me. Patterns and intention however do. When there's a pattern and intention, then I think it's time to take notice. You think the warlock in World of Warcraft coincidently has a hexagram at her feet when casting harm onto an opponent? Really, what are the odds? That'll send your calculator into a tailspin I'm sure.

The point is to be aware of what's truly influencing us. To shrug and say "eh, it's a symbol, so what?" is not denying ignorance by any stretch of the means. We know that exposure generates comfort. It's a word called - familiarity. Becoming cozy with things we do not understand or are subjected to unconciously should be sending off an alert, should it not?


Originally posted by Cicada
Games themselves figure frequently in mythologies. Many systems tell stories of divinities engaging in matches of celestial chess. In Norse mythology, the few survivors of Ragnarok collect the surviving artifacts of the Aesir including their golden gaming boards and pieces. If something is one of the few surviving elements of the end of the world it must be significant.


I spend a lot of time gaming. I've 'lost' myself in gaming a time or two *cough, Evequest, cough*. This can be bad for a number of reasons. Influence being one of them. A switching on of "hm, what if" and "this seems interesting" to the pursuit of it as a constant, consistent lifestyle negatively impacting (if not eliminating all together) the important things in our lives. The game wants us to play, we fall in love, and we play. One cannot serve two masters. Who's behind it all? Look at the symbols.

[edit on 22-9-2005 by saint4God]


So you're a gamer railing against the dangers of gaming? Or are you a reformed gamer who has kicked the habit?

Did the CIA randomly invade the (I'm certain rather modest) offices of Steve Jackson Games? No, I'm sure they felt they had good reason, but if you think the CIA has perfect judgment at all times you haven't been paying much attention lately. I don't see how someone engaged in a creative endeavor's high level of research should be a source of scorn. Really, that type of dedication to craft should be commended.

I honestly can't see getting all worked up over a video game magician having a hexagram appear around them when they cast a spell. It's a basic figure of geometry with multiple symbolic connotations of great variance. Most obviously it denotes a star. Is there anything wrong with stars? Of course it's also the Star of David. Isn't he a figure you're taught to revere in your religion? I know you're talking about the intentions of the symbol's use. In a game like "World of Warcraft" I'm quite sure the intent was to create a sense of unreal magical fantasy intended to entertain the players. I really can't see anything wrong with that. Where in your religion does it tell you to fear the perception of basic cultural symbols? What are the odds of a visual designer utilizing one of the simplest of geometrical forms? It doesn't take a calculator to figure that one out. It's like getting upset over somebody drawing a square.

I have no fear of symbolism whatsoever. If something is unfamiliar to me I endeavor to the best of my ability to understand it. There are enough bad things in the world to worry about. The basic building blocks of communication are no threat to you no matter what context you find them in. If you feel someone can perform an invasive attack on your soul or psyche through a visual image I would be more concerned with why you felt so vulnerable to something that is ultimately ephemeral.

I play games and do a lot of other things for entertainment. I'm sorry but I never once felt that the game was taking control of me. The user is supposed to control the game, no? I can't understand this position. It sounds like an excuse for a lack of personal discipline.



posted on Sep, 23 2005 @ 09:17 AM
link   

Originally posted by Cicada
So you're a gamer railing against the dangers of gaming? Or are you a reformed gamer who has kicked the habit?


The first. I'm a gamer railing against the dangers of gaming. Not to say there is no benefit to gaming, just that it's certainly possible to overdose(which I'm not really covering here) and missing the warning labels(the point of this thread). Like alcohol, aspirin, and other substances that should only be used in small, controlled quantities. Interestingly enough though, I've not found inverted pentagrams on advil or Bamophet on a bottle of wine.


Originally posted by Cicada
Did the CIA randomly invade the (I'm certain rather modest) offices of Steve Jackson Games? No, I'm sure they felt they had good reason, but if you think the CIA has perfect judgment at all times you haven't been paying much attention lately. I don't see how someone engaged in a creative endeavor's high level of research should be a source of scorn.


I'll agree with that. As a parent though, I too will investigate if there's probable cause. Doesn't mean that's absolutely what's going on, but gotta look for the warning signs. We're bomb-vigilantes in this country, watching for suspicious packages and people seeming do engaging in unusual activity after our recent attack. It doesn't mean all packages and suspicious people are bomb carriers, but if you've got probable cause, it's worth checking out, yes? I do find these things in this thread pretty bleeding obvious, but that could be because of my exposure, I don't know.



Really, that type of dedication to craft should be commended.


Game creation and gaming is an art I think. With that though, I think one has to be careful not to paint an ugly picture.



I honestly can't see getting all worked up over a video game magician having a hexagram appear around them when they cast a spell. It's a basic figure of geometry with multiple symbolic connotations of great variance. Most obviously it denotes a star. Is there anything wrong with stars? Of course it's also the Star of David. Isn't he a figure you're taught to revere in your religion? I know you're talking about the intentions of the symbol's use.


It isn't used as a Star of David in this case. At least, not with any practioners I know. I'll leave that research up to anyone who's interested, I have no intention on encouraging the ritual or hexing. I suppose I'd rather have someone brush over it as nonsense than to take a desire towards such things.



In a game like "World of Warcraft" I'm quite sure the intent was to create a sense of unreal magical fantasy intended to entertain the players. I really can't see anything wrong with that.


Me either. I wish they would leave real-life out of it or at least represent these things for what they truly are. One or the other.



Where in your religion does it tell you to fear the perception of basic cultural symbols?


Fear? Not fear. But I will point them out for those who don't know what they're playing with.



What are the odds of a visual designer utilizing one of the simplest of geometrical forms? It doesn't take a calculator to figure that one out. It's like getting upset over somebody drawing a square.


Hehe. That's what I'm saying. These aren't 'squares'. They are very intentional designs. I don't know who the designer is, what they believe, if they realize or what-have-you, but to use a symbol properly seems hardly and accident. Punch that up on a calculator as "what are the odds?"



I have no fear of symbolism whatsoever. If something is unfamiliar to me I endeavor to the best of my ability to understand it.


We're on the same page on this point.



There are enough bad things in the world to worry about. The basic building blocks of communication are no threat to you no matter what context you find them in. If you feel someone can perform an invasive attack on your soul or psyche through a visual image I would be more concerned with why you felt so vulnerable to something that is ultimately ephemeral.


I'm not concerned about me. I've already fought my battle.



I play games and do a lot of other things for entertainment. I'm sorry but I never once felt that the game was taking control of me.


I never said nor think I implied that. As in my previous point, the idea is to get us cozy with the idea. An icebreaker/mixer of sorts.



The user is supposed to control the game, no?


Exactly my point!



I can't understand this position. It sounds like an excuse for a lack of personal discipline.


You may be right. Many people may accept what the game is "feeding" them consciously out of a lack of personal discipline. I'm moreso making the case though that we're being "fed" unconciously when we see these things and either don't recognize or understand them.

In regards to ownership, I like World of Warcraft moreso than the others because it does give the user this tool. I'm able to create a guild and set the guidelines that counter a lot of negative effects I see in other guilds to be among a fellowship. However, there is a lot hidden ideologies in the game that a lot of us (myself included I'm sure) do not recognize right away if at all.

[edit on 23-9-2005 by saint4God]



posted on Sep, 23 2005 @ 02:10 PM
link   

Originally posted by saint4God
Interestingly enough though, I've not found inverted pentagrams on advil or Bamophet on a bottle of wine.


It certainly would be a disastrous marketing move to put symbols people equate with evil on your product. However, you may be surprised what symbols you'll find being utilized in corporate design and advertising, but that's another story. Quite honestly, the mainstream advertising practices of corporations to push their products are much worthier of your concern than any esoteric symbolism that might find its way into a video game.



I'll agree with that. As a parent though, I too will investigate if there's probable cause. Doesn't mean that's absolutely what's going on, but gotta look for the warning signs. We're bomb-vigilantes in this country, watching for suspicious packages and people seeming do engaging in unusual activity after our recent attack. It doesn't mean all packages and suspicious people are bomb carriers, but if you've got probable cause, it's worth checking out, yes?


Are the CIA or the federal government our parents? In a nation founded on principles of freedom of expression, I'm not comfortably with a police body raiding anybody based upon the content of their publications. I don't care if they're writing "How To Be a Suicide Bomber in Ten Easy Lessons", freedom of speech is freedom of speech. The fact that the material in this case was set in a fantasy, science fiction reality and had nothing to do with real world hacking just made the entire matter rather ridiculous. I'm sure they could have found something more pertinent to do in regards to defending national security with their time and our money. I just can't equate a page of print, no matter what its content, as being the same thing as a weapon or a bomb that can cause physical, bodily harm. It's a pretty big stretch as far as analogies go.



Game creation and gaming is an art I think. With that though, I think one has to be careful not to paint an ugly picture.


Which is just a statement of personal aesthetic preference and hardly something that any one could or should ever in any way be allowed to legislate or mandate.



Me either. I wish they would leave real-life out of it or at least represent these things for what they truly are. One or the other.


Sorry, could you restate this in a clearer manner? No offense intended, I just couldn't make sense of it. Unless a work of visual art is completely abstract, like a Pollock or a Rothko painting, then I can't imagine how a visual designer or artist could produce a readable image without utilizing "real-life" elements, no matter how fantastic the product they're producing. I think I must be misunderstanding this.



Fear? Not fear. But I will point them out for those who don't know what they're playing with.


If not fear than what, just a concern? Fear is a fairly general term to describe a range of emotional states. I didn't say abject terror. It's anxiety for their spiritual welfare of others (correct me if I'm wrong), which ultimately isn't really your concern, but that of the individual or the individual's parents or guardians.



Hehe. That's what I'm saying. These aren't 'squares'. They are very intentional designs. I don't know who the designer is, what they believe, if they realize or what-have-you, but to use a symbol properly seems hardly and accident. Punch that up on a calculator as "what are the odds?"


The hexagram is barely more complex a symbol than the basic square. It's only two more sides. The square, being four sided, has at least as many varied symbolic connotations as the hexagram. To me the odds of a visual designer utilizing any geometric form are 1:1. There's simply no other way to create a readable visual image. You admit the hexagram has multiple connotations. It's probably not intended to represent a Star of David in this case, but I bet if they used the form, or that of a cross, to symbolize one character healing another you wouldn't have any problem with it. The problem with worrying about what someone is inferring by the use of a symbol is that the reading of a symbol is an interaction. The viewer brings as much or more to the interpretation as the author does. That's the way it should be.



I'm not concerned about me. I've already fought my battle.


While I imagine your religion compels you to seek out the salvation of the souls of others, in a free, secular society any one outside of your family's interaction with symbols in any manner is really none of your business.



I never said nor think I implied that. As in my previous point, the idea is to get us cozy with the idea. An icebreaker/mixer of sorts.


Forgive me if I'm misportraying your stance but to me this makes about as much sense as worrying that the devil is speaking backwards on Kiss albums. Any given symbol is only as powerful as the observer allows it to be. Since there's no way you could mandate that it seems your energy could be better utilized in solving problems a little more tangible.



You may be right. Many people may accept what the game is "feeding" them consciously out of a lack of personal discipline. I'm moreso making the case though that we're being "fed" unconciously when we see these things and either don't recognize or understand them.

In regards to ownership, I like World of Warcraft moreso than the others because it does give the user this tool. I'm able to create a guild and set the guidelines that counter a lot of negative effects I see in other guilds to be among a fellowship. However, there is a lot hidden ideologies in the game that a lot of us (myself included I'm sure) do not recognize right away if at all.


I'm not trying to be antagonistic. I've found your posts and statements to be interesting and insightful. But could you clarify how you think this subliminal process of indoctrination through symbols in popular culture works? The letter X is the same thing as the cross of lux, a symbol of light. When you experience the letter X do you suspect there is a subliminal process taking place to alter your perceptions or opinions about light, or can you accept that symbolic images have multiple connotations and that the interpretations of these symbols is dependent upon the knowledge of the viewer. It's also Saint Andrew's cross. Every time you do multiplication or read an exit sign do you believe there's a subliminal process taking place regarding St. Andrew? If the understanding of a symbol came through osmosis at the point of experiencing it then there would be no reason for anyone to study Symbology in the first place.

I have no doubt that popular and historical culture is rife with argots, or secret symbols. It's a fact. However, the purpose of a hidden or secret symbol would be to communicate something to someone who is also initiated in the language that you're using while leaving the majority of the viewers unaware that they were witnessing a transmission of information in the first place.

As an example, many people view the work of Northern Renaissance artist Heironymus Bosch as the product of a devoutly Christian man detailing the sinful folly of man and the ultimate price they pay for it in the afterlife. Others see a system of argotic symbols transmitting Rosicrucian, Gnostic, Cathar or Manichean related heresies. Seeing how the Inquisition was quite active in torturing and killing heretics in 16th century Europe it's quite understandable why believers in such tenets or systems would feel the need to communicate through ciphers. The thing about the varied opinions of Bosch's work is that everyone can be right and no one wrong. After the work of art is finished the interaction between it and a viewer has nothing more to do with the artist.

Is it possible that individuals or groups believing in certain tenets or systems are utilizing symbolism in areas of popular culture, including role-playing and video games? Sure. But the intent would more likely be to communicate something to other individuals who are aware of how to read the message rather than the subtle coercion of all viewers toward their agenda. Hidden symbolism is a poor way to wage propaganda. Believe me, the basic hexagram or even the inverted pentagram is not a gateway drug to spiritual damnation.



posted on Sep, 26 2005 @ 01:57 PM
link   

Originally posted by Cicada
It certainly would be a disastrous marketing move to put symbols people equate with evil on your product.


I would think so, yeah. But for some reason, games get away with it.


Originally posted by Cicada
However, you may be surprised what symbols you'll find being utilized in corporate design and advertising, but that's another story. Quite honestly, the mainstream advertising practices of corporations to push their products are much worthier of your concern than any esoteric symbolism that might find its way into a video game.


Logowatcher had a thread on that about 4 months ago. I don't really see it. That is, unless you want to talk about Fidelity Illuminestments:



The rest seems to be 'catchy' stuff. Working for a corporation, I can see how not a lot of design and thought goes into a logo beyond that. They're usually non-descript and unpurposeful...the opposite of what I'm finding.


Originally posted by Cicada
Are the CIA or the federal government our parents?


They seem to think they are



Originally posted by Cicada
In a nation founded on principles of freedom of expression, I'm not comfortably with a police body raiding anybody based upon the content of their publications. I don't care if they're writing "How To Be a Suicide Bomber in Ten Easy Lessons", freedom of speech is freedom of speech.


Really? I do. Is it legal for someone to yell "FIRE!" in a crowded theatre?


Originally posted by Cicada
The fact that the material in this case was set in a fantasy, science fiction reality and had nothing to do with real world hacking just made the entire matter rather ridiculous. I'm sure they could have found something more pertinent to do in regards to defending national security with their time and our money. I just can't equate a page of print, no matter what its content, as being the same thing as a weapon or a bomb that can cause physical, bodily harm. It's a pretty big stretch as far as analogies go.


Dunno, didn't read the content myself. It'd be interesting to have a looksee to see how accurate it really is...not that I...ever did any kind of hacking...at any point in my life...or anything...just curious...


Originally posted by Cicada
Which is just a statement of personal aesthetic preference and hardly something that any one could or should ever in any way be allowed to legislate or mandate.


The problem though is it's hidden until you open up the box. The purchase has already been made, the company has the money. Otherwise I'd agree.


Originally posted by Cicada


Me either. I wish they would leave real-life out of it or at least represent these things for what they truly are. One or the other.


Sorry, could you restate this in a clearer manner? No offense intended, I just couldn't make sense of it. Unless a work of visual art is completely abstract, like a Pollock or a Rothko painting, then I can't imagine how a visual designer or artist could produce a readable image without utilizing "real-life" elements, no matter how fantastic the product they're producing. I think I must be misunderstanding this.


My preference is that no elements of real life symbology exist. If you want to make an RPG with a detailed functional pentagram on the cover, call it Witchcraft, then I know what I'm getting into. By the way, such a game exists and no I haven't bought it. Don't stuff the symbols into something else that seems free of reality. I believe they're called "easter eggs" when they delight the audience like in a special edition DVD or game.


Originally posted by Cicada
If not fear than what, just a concern? Fear is a fairly general term to describe a range of emotional states. I didn't say abject terror. It's anxiety for their spiritual welfare of others (correct me if I'm wrong), which ultimately isn't really your concern, but that of the individual or the individual's parents or guardians.


Okay, I think I can fairly state I fear that someone who does not understand these things will take a misunderstood curiousity and pursue it. It can be danger for the whole family (tm). As far as being concerned with others... if a rock is throwing a rock at someone with their back turn, I'm going to shout "duck!". I know that's un-american of me, but I do care about others.


Originally posted by Cicada
The hexagram is barely more complex a symbol than the basic square. It's only two more sides.


Uhm, not that kind of hexagram. The symbol as pictured in the WoW screenshot, not the geometric shape. Try drawing one of those as they did, it take a fair amount of work.


Originally posted by Cicada
The square, being four sided, has at least as many varied symbolic connotations as the hexagram. To me the odds of a visual designer utilizing any geometric form are 1:1. There's simply no other way to create a readable visual image. You admit the hexagram has multiple connotations. It's probably not intended to represent a Star of David in this case, but I bet if they used the form, or that of a cross, to symbolize one character healing another you wouldn't have any problem with it.


The difference here is the Star of David and the cross are not empowered items, nor are used in ritualisitic evokations/invocations. In other words, they hold no power.


Originally posted by Cicada
The problem with worrying about what someone is inferring by the use of a symbol is that the reading of a symbol is an interaction. The viewer brings as much or more to the interpretation as the author does. That's the way it should be.


Symbols are also an effective form of communication. Make it 'look cool' and it will be adopted. Again, the more detail, the less chance of it being "random". Also, when used in context reinforces this point. Additonally, when compounded by other words and symbols to support it, Voila! You have a consistent and influencing meaning. Symbols are the ingredients to a recipe in the cookbook.


Originally posted by Cicada
While I imagine your religion compels you to seek out the salvation of the souls of others, in a free, secular society any one outside of your family's interaction with symbols in any manner is really none of your business.


Wow, that was a knee-jerk reaction. Where did I talk about soul-saving on this thread? Again with the "none of your business" line, like I'm somehow policing others by posting this information. Welcome to my thread, hope you enjoy your visit.


Originally posted by Cicada
Forgive me if I'm misportraying your stance but to me this makes about as much sense as worrying that the devil is speaking backwards on Kiss albums.


I never found any evidence of Kiss participating in that. I do know some metal that had some much harder messages when played forward at regular speed
. And yes, I did used to listen to them.


Originally posted by Cicada
Any given symbol is only as powerful as the observer allows it to be. Since there's no way you could mandate that it seems your energy could be better utilized in solving problems a little more tangible.


I'm gonna disagree per a few practioners I used to be friends with.


Originally posted by Cicada
I'm not trying to be antagonistic. I've found your posts and statements to be interesting and insightful.


Thank you
. I understand too why you're testing what I'm putting forward. If it weren't, the assumption would be that I hadn't seriously considered other perspectives.


Originally posted by Cicada
But could you clarify how you think this subliminal process of indoctrination through symbols in popular culture works? The letter X is the same thing as the cross of lux, a symbol of light. When you experience the letter X do you suspect there is a subliminal process taking place to alter your perceptions or opinions about light, or can you accept that symbolic images have multiple connotations and that the interpretations of these symbols is dependent upon the knowledge of the viewer.


It takes more than 'just a symbol' for me to say something is irregular. Let me take an example. In WoW, you have a warlock, with a full-hex at her feet casting harm upon an opponent. 3 elements are now involved that connect nicely with each other. 1.) Full hex-symbol 2.) Warlock 3.) Casting harm. Combined the three parts tell a story.


Originally posted by Cicada
It's also Saint Andrew's cross. Every time you do multiplication or read an exit sign do you believe there's a subliminal process taking place regarding St. Andrew? If the understanding of a symbol came through osmosis at the point of experiencing it then there would be no reason for anyone to study Symbology in the first place.


Per above, it takes more than an X to tell a story.


Originally posted by Cicada
I have no doubt that popular and historical culture is rife with argots, or secret symbols. It's a fact. However, the purpose of a hidden or secret symbol would be to communicate something to someone who is also initiated in the language that you're using while leaving the majority of the viewers unaware that they were witnessing a transmission of information in the first place.


This can be a problem. We tend to take things that we like without knowing what they are. That's why I'm doing this.


Originally posted by Cicada
As an example, many people view the work of Northern Renaissance artist Heironymus Bosch as the product of a devoutly Christian man detailing the sinful folly of man and the ultimate price they pay for it in the afterlife. Others see a system of argotic symbols transmitting Rosicrucian, Gnostic, Cathar or Manichean related heresies. Seeing how the Inquisition was quite active in torturing and killing heretics in 16th century Europe it's quite understandable why believers in such tenets or systems would feel the need to communicate through ciphers. The thing about the varied opinions of Bosch's work is that everyone can be right and no one wrong. After the work of art is finished the interaction between it and a viewer has nothing more to do with the artist.


Again, it isn't just a symbol I'm interested in. It's what it means that bears the weight of importance.


Originally posted by Cicada
Is it possible that individuals or groups believing in certain tenets or systems are utilizing symbolism in areas of popular culture, including role-playing and video games? Sure. But the intent would more likely be to communicate something to other individuals who are aware of how to read the message rather than the subtle coercion of all viewers toward their agenda. Hidden symbolism is a poor way to wage propaganda. Believe me, the basic hexagram or even the inverted pentagram is not a gateway drug to spiritual damnation.


It can assist in that dark journey...and it did assist me. Fortunately I was rescued from that tailspin and am here to tell of the experience. All I want to provide is the tools to recognize a problem. Take it or leave it, I'm not forcing anyone to do, think, or believe anything. In fact, I'd rather people look at the information and come to a conclusion on their own. If I'm wrong, fine, I'm off my rocker and move on. If I'm right...please consider, carefully.

[edit on 26-9-2005 by saint4God]



posted on Sep, 26 2005 @ 02:24 PM
link   
The link on the last page for the WoW picture now takes us to the homepage. Ah well, guess you'd have to play World of Warcraft to see what I mean or dig around that site.



posted on Sep, 26 2005 @ 05:08 PM
link   
Either you perceive things through some serious filters or you're being purposefully obtuse. I suspect the former.



Originally posted by saint4God
I would think so, yeah. But for some reason, games get away with it.


I wouldn't say they "get away with it" because they're producing media for an audience looking for a fantasy-themed product. When they use the symbols it is marketing. How you can equate a bottle of aspirin with a fantasy role-playing game is beyond me.



They seem to think they are


Which does nothing to address my challenge to your analogy of the wrongful raid on a publishing company and you looking out for your child.



Really? I do. Is it legal for someone to yell "FIRE!" in a crowded theatre?


That's hardly the same thing and you know it. While it may not be legal to yell "fire" in a crowded theater it is perfectly legal to publish a book about how much fun it is to do it.



Dunno, didn't read the content myself. It'd be interesting to have a looksee to see how accurate it really is...not that I...ever did any kind of hacking...at any point in my life...or anything...just curious...


Well since the CIA, whom you seem to put so much stock in, made no arrests and returned the material, which was subsequently published, I think it's safe to assume the material proved to be innocuous. If you're unfamiliar with the term 'cyber-punk', it's a form of science fiction.



The problem though is it's hidden until you open up the box. The purchase has already been made, the company has the money. Otherwise I'd agree.


So what is it you thought you were purchasing when you bought a game called "World of Warcraft" with its prominently featured orcs, etc? And did you not suspect that "Final Fantasy" might contain, I don't know, some fantasy elements in it? The thing that really kills me about this is that you in no way seem to be concerned about the fact that the games whose symbolism you're fretting over are about killing things. Do you think that your messiah, whom I believe said "Do unto others as you would have others do unto you" is more worried about you seeing a hexagram or that you spend money to devote hours of your life to fantasizing that you're killing scores of people and creatures with swords and fire. What do you think would bother Him more?



My preference is that no elements of real life symbology exist. If you want to make an RPG with a detailed functional pentagram on the cover, call it Witchcraft, then I know what I'm getting into. By the way, such a game exists and no I haven't bought it. Don't stuff the symbols into something else that seems free of reality. I believe they're called "easter eggs" when they delight the audience like in a special edition DVD or game.


If you're able to create Symbology that contains no elements of real life then more power to you. I personally think that that's impossible. A hidden symbol is hardly the same thing as a video game or DVD easter egg. With an easter egg you have to engage in a specific physical activity, like typing in a cheat code, in order to pull up something someone physically programmed into the product. What you're suggesting is that this somehow mystically happens on a psychological level with symbols and that's just unsupportable bad science.



Okay, I think I can fairly state I fear that someone who does not understand these things will take a misunderstood curiousity and pursue it. It can be danger for the whole family (tm). As far as being concerned with others... if a rock is throwing a rock at someone with their back turn, I'm going to shout "duck!". I know that's un-american of me, but I do care about others.


The part that you're making very hard to understand is how you think an inert symbol causes someone to become evil. By what process do you think this happens? If a family member has a mental illness and becomes a danger to themselves or others, then they could very well go off the deep end from any given stimuli. I guarantee that if you asked any professional working in the field of abnormal psychology that they will tell you that there are far more people suffering from Christianity inspired delusions than any game, record album or book. Again I'd like to point out that a rock being thrown at someone is a physical weapon and a poor analogy for a media product. It doesn't clarify your argument in any way. I envision someone getting hit with a rock and then I envision someone looking at an image on a screen or in a book. How are these things the same? Also if you ever see a rock throwing a rock try to get some videotape of it, that's something I'd like to see (sorry, I couldn't help myself).



Uhm, not that kind of hexagram. The symbol as pictured in the WoW screenshot, not the geometric shape. Try drawing one of those as they did, it take a fair amount of work.


So the amount of time spent drawing something is part of this equation then? A hexagram is a hexagram. If the thing that you're describing doesn't look like a six-sided star then it's not a hexagram. If it's elaborately designed that's must likely just for aesthetic purposes, to make playing the game visually interesting. What's so evil about that?



The difference here is the Star of David and the cross are not empowered items, nor are used in ritualisitic evokations/invocations. In other words, they hold no power.


That may be the single most incongruous thing I've ever heard a Christian say in my entire life. One would think the hexagram used for purposes of a religious ceremony would be more empowered than when used in a video game, no? Personally I think they're inert symbols in both contexts. What is it that you think empowers the hexagram in your war game? The devil?



Symbols are also an effective form of communication. Make it 'look cool' and it will be adopted. Again, the more detail, the less chance of it being "random". Also, when used in context reinforces this point. Additonally, when compounded by other words and symbols to support it, Voila! You have a consistent and influencing meaning. Symbols are the ingredients to a recipe in the cookbook.


Not only are symbols an effective form of communication, they're the only form of communication. Every written word, drawn image or phonetic sound is a symbol. Even the whimpering of a dog sitting at the door is a symbolic communication of its desire to go outside. I never said the use of the symbols in their contexts were random, just that they most probably weren't used due to sinister motives. A cookbook is not the same thing as a game or anything else with symbols embedded in it. A cookbook by design is laid out clearly and step by step and the people reading the cookbook are using it for that purpose. If you had to be subliminally influenced through a medium unrelated to cooking in order to learn how to make a soufflé then no one would ever get the recipe right. That's another poor, lopsided analogy.



Wow, that was a knee-jerk reaction. Where did I talk about soul-saving on this thread? Again with the "none of your business" line, like I'm somehow policing others by posting this information. Welcome to my thread, hope you enjoy your visit.


Thanks, I'm having more fun all the time. If it isn't the soul you're concerned with then what is it? Does it have something to do with throwing rocks at people? You have every right to post whatever you like and I have every right to challenge you on it. This is a discussion forum. If you're not concerned for yourself, or for anyone else, then what exactly is the point?


I do know some metal that had some much harder messages when played forward at regular speed
.


Which is their right in a free, secular society.



I'm gonna disagree per a few practioners I used to be friends with.


Again, it's their right in a free, secular society to be practitioners of whatever they like as long as they're not breaking the law while doing it.


I understand too why you're testing what I'm putting forward. If it weren't, the assumption would be that I hadn't seriously considered other perspectives.


I think you're misreading me. I'm not testing you at all, I'm trying to make sense of what your point is without much success.



It takes more than 'just a symbol' for me to say something is irregular. Let me take an example. In WoW, you have a warlock, with a full-hex at her feet casting harm upon an opponent. 3 elements are now involved that connect nicely with each other. 1.) Full hex-symbol 2.) Warlock 3.) Casting harm. Combined the three parts tell a story.


And then what happens? That's the part that is missing in your argument. You present that these symbols being used in these games are potentially dangerous but you don't at all present an explanation for how all of this is supposed to work, especially since you're shying away from talking about the soul. If someone were to play a game and decide they wanted to be a warlock and cast spells on people, that person is more than likely suffering from a mental illness which would have manifested itself regardless of what ever games they play. Again I have to wonder what you thought "World of Warcraft" was about and why the casting of a hex part (something you can't do in the real world) is so much more egregious than the stabbing people with a knife part (something you can do in the real world).



Per above, it takes more than an X to tell a story.


So it's stories that you're concerned about and not symbols. You shouldn't be afraid of stories either, especially fairy tales and fables.



This can be a problem. We tend to take things that we like without knowing what they are. That's why I'm doing this.


If people are unaware that a communiqué is taking place then wherein lies the problem?
Is it something on the subliminal level again?




Again, it isn't just a symbol I'm interested in. It's what it means that bears the weight of importance.


Do you really not get that I'm saying, repeatedly, that the interpretation of any given work of art is subjective? Unless the creator of the piece is standing next to you telling you how to read the piece then the intentions behind it are merely guesswork. I'd also say that after the point of completion that even the creator's opinion is just one individual's opinion.



It can assist in that dark journey...and it did assist me. Fortunately I was rescued from that tailspin and am here to tell of the experience. All I want to provide is the tools to recognize a problem. Take it or leave it, I'm not forcing anyone to do, think, or believe anything. In fact, I'd rather people look at the information and come to a conclusion on their own. If I'm wrong, fine, I'm off my rocker and move on. If I'm right...please consider, carefully.


I thought you didn't want to bring the soul into this. Again, blaming elements from a game to me sounds like a compensation for weak personal character.



posted on Sep, 27 2005 @ 10:12 AM
link   
Foreword: Originally this thread was focused on Rosicrucians and Illuminati, as an exploration of the two groups. I knew little about them. However, it seems to have shifted more to the 'other secret socities' area, much to my surprise to more familiar territory.


Originally posted by Cicada
Either you perceive things through some serious filters or you're being purposefully obtuse. I suspect the former.


Can you define what you mean by obtuse? A synonym would work. The word has a few definitions.


Originally posted by Cicada
I wouldn't say they "get away with it" because they're producing media for an audience looking for a fantasy-themed product. When they use the symbols it is marketing.


Not always. My issue is when it is in there AFTER the purchase or without recognition.


Originally posted by Cicada
How you can equate a bottle of aspirin with a fantasy role-playing game is beyond me.


Two products you purchase. One is what it says it is, one has a lot of hidden details. That's all that was meant by the analogy.


Originally posted by Cicada
Which does nothing to address my challenge to your analogy of the wrongful raid on a publishing company and you looking out for your child.


It was joke (hence the laughing smiley next to it), but not entirely. I don't think it's right to wrongfully raid a publishing company (by definition of wrongfully). I don't know what they were thinking nor what they saw that prompted it. For me to give a nod or shake of the head, I'd have to see what it is that caused them to react. Given what I know, it be prejudicial I think to say either way.


Originally posted by Cicada
That's hardly the same thing and you know it. While it may not be legal to yell "fire" in a crowded theater it is perfectly legal to publish a book about how much fun it is to do it.


Hm.


Originally posted by Cicada
Well since the CIA, whom you seem to put so much stock in,


Who said that?


Originally posted by Cicada
made no arrests and returned the material, which was subsequently published, I think it's safe to assume


I never think it's "safe to assume".


Originally posted by Cicada
the material proved to be innocuous. If you're unfamiliar with the term 'cyber-punk', it's a form of science fiction.


I am. There was a pretty good RPG called Cyber Punk itself. Didn't last on the market long and only played it once. I tended to Shadowrun moreso but was very rule-intensive. Wild concepts though.


Originally posted by Cicada
So what is it you thought you were purchasing when you bought a game called "World of Warcraft" with its prominently featured orcs, etc?


Well, I did play Warcraft II: The Tide of War, which was like the precursor to Age of Empires. I'd left it for AoE I and II when that one came out. I'd hoped they'd stick to the same premise. Warcraft III didn't seem to measure up to AoE so only played that one once. I was skeptical at first of WoW but after a friend introduced, seemed like a clean game. I'm learning though, the more I play, the more connecting symbols with concepts there are. I'm not saying it's jammed packed full of them, but they're are a few there.


Originally posted by Cicada
And did you not suspect that "Final Fantasy" might contain, I don't know, some fantasy elements in it?


LOL, I was hoping it would contain all fantasy elements. Problem is, every single FF seems to end the same way. Same with the movie. The details are different but the essence remains the same. FF X seemed to be 'chock full of nuts' that I didn't know applied to real-life. Of course, they throw in a lot of obviousness too with Yevon and Sin. They end up twisting the definitions around though, which is odd.


Originally posted by Cicada
The thing that really kills me about this is that you in no way seem to be concerned about the fact that the games whose symbolism you're fretting over are about killing things.


Actually that does bother me quite a bit. We can talk more about it if you like.


Originally posted by Cicada
Do you think that your messiah, whom I believe said "Do unto others as you would have others do unto you" is more worried about you seeing a hexagram or that you spend money to devote hours of your life to fantasizing that you're killing scores of people and creatures with swords and fire. What do you think would bother Him more?


You make a very good and heavy point. One I'm currently struggling with.


Originally posted by Cicada
If you're able to create Symbology that contains no elements of real life then more power to you. I personally think that that's impossible. A hidden symbol is hardly the same thing as a video game or DVD easter egg. With an easter egg you have to engage in a specific physical activity, like typing in a cheat code, in order to pull up something someone physically programmed into the product. What you're suggesting is that this somehow mystically happens on a psychological level with symbols and that's just unsupportable bad science.


*shrugs* I can say I was a lab rat for a psychology experiment while in college regarding subliminals and comprehension. Wish I have the final paper to show you.


Originally posted by Cicada
The part that you're making very hard to understand is how you think an inert symbol causes someone to become evil.


Whoa, hey, I didn't say that.


Originally posted by Cicada
By what process do you think this happens?


I said that these symbols are influential to us in that we become comfortable with them around. In addition, they can be negative tools to those who seek to find out how they're used without clearly understanding the consequences.


Originally posted by Cicada
If a family member has a mental illness and becomes a danger to themselves or others, then they could very well go off the deep end from any given stimuli. I guarantee that if you asked any professional working in the field of abnormal psychology that they will tell you that there are far more people suffering from Christianity inspired delusions than any game, record album or book.


I see we cannot be objective nor focused about this.


Originally posted by Cicada
Again I'd like to point out that a rock being thrown at someone is a physical weapon and a poor analogy for a media product. It doesn't clarify your argument in any way.


I'll stop using analogies then. It would however, make things easier to explain and understand I think.


Originally posted by Cicada
I envision someone getting hit with a rock and then I envision someone looking at an image on a screen or in a book. How are these things the same? Also if you ever see a rock throwing a rock try to get some videotape of it, that's something I'd like to see (sorry, I couldn't help myself).


Nevermind.


Originally posted by Cicada
So the amount of time spent drawing something is part of this equation then? A hexagram is a hexagram. If the thing that you're describing doesn't look like a six-sided star then it's not a hexagram. If it's elaborately designed that's must likely just for aesthetic purposes, to make playing the game visually interesting. What's so evil about that?


I have no intention to promote practices.


Originally posted by Cicada
That may be the single most incongruous thing I've ever heard a Christian say in my entire life. One would think the hexagram used for purposes of a religious ceremony would be more empowered than when used in a video game, no? Personally I think they're inert symbols in both contexts. What is it that you think empowers the hexagram in your war game? The devil?


*sigh*


Originally posted by Cicada
Not only are symbols an effective form of communication, they're the only form of communication. Every written word, drawn image or phonetic sound is a symbol. Even the whimpering of a dog sitting at the door is a symbolic communication of its desire to go outside. I never said the use of the symbols in their contexts were random, just that they most probably weren't used due to sinister motives. A cookbook is not the same thing as a game or anything else with symbols embedded in it. A cookbook by design is laid out clearly and step by step and the people reading the cookbook are using it for that purpose. If you had to be subliminally influenced through a medium unrelated to cooking in order to learn how to make a soufflé then no one would ever get the recipe right. That's another poor, lopsided analogy.


Are you done?


Originally posted by Cicada
Thanks, I'm having more fun all the time. If it isn't the soul you're concerned with then what is it?


I am concerned with the soul.


Originally posted by Cicada
Does it have something to do with throwing rocks at people?


No.


Originally posted by Cicada
You have every right to post whatever you like and I have every right to challenge you on it. This is a discussion forum. If you're not concerned for yourself, or for anyone else, then what exactly is the point?


I have very little concern for myself, rather everyone else. It was you who admonished me for being in 'everyone else's business', was it not?


Originally posted by Cicada
Which is their right in a free, secular society.


And certainly I'd prefer that over duping people.


Originally posted by Cicada
Again, it's their right in a free, secular society to be practitioners of whatever they like as long as they're not breaking the law while doing it.


I've no problem with that.


Originally posted by Cicada
I think you're misreading me. I'm not testing you at all, I'm trying to make sense of what your point is without much success.


My point is it's important to be awake and aware of what we're visually being subjected to and understand the meanings, origins, and consequences.


Originally posted by Cicada
And then what happens? That's the part that is missing in your argument.


Intentionally so. I'm not going to advocate practice.


Originally posted by Cicada
You present that these symbols being used in these games are potentially dangerous but you don't at all present an explanation for how all of this is supposed to work,


Feed the curiousity of those who wish to do exactly what I'm trying to prevent? Why on earth would I do that? This is to serve as a warning, not a promotion.


Originally posted by Cicada
especially since you're shying away from talking about the soul.


We can talk about soul, though wasn't the point of the thread.


Originally posted by Cicada
If someone were to play a game and decide they wanted to be a warlock and cast spells on people, that person is more than likely suffering from a mental illness which would have manifested itself regardless of what ever games they play. Again I have to wonder what you thought "World of Warcraft" was about and why the casting of a hex part (something you can't do in the real world)


You can't? Really...


Originally posted by Cicada
is so much more egregious than the stabbing people with a knife part (something you can do in the real world).


Stabbing someone with a knife is also wrong, though I'd hoped most people already knew that.


Originally posted by Cicada
So it's stories that you're concerned about and not symbols. You shouldn't be afraid of stories either, especially fairy tales and fables.


The "story" is the composition of elements. I didn't mean fictional "story" rather the sum of parts to make a whole. I'll make more of an attempt to be literal.


Originally posted by Cicada
If people are unaware that a communiqué is taking place then wherein lies the problem?


Just because people are unaware, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. I'd recommend not wearing a blindfold through life. It increases your chances of injury.


Originally posted by Cicada
Is it something on the subliminal level again?


Sometimes. Depends on who you are and how you're affected.


Originally posted by Cicada
Do you really not get that I'm saying, repeatedly, that the interpretation of any given work of art is subjective?


Do you really not get that I'm saying, repeatedly, that its not art or stylized randomness?


Originally posted by Cicada
Unless the creator of the piece is standing next to you telling you how to read the piece then the intentions behind it are merely guesswork. I'd also say that after the point of completion that even the creator's opinion is just one individual's opinion.


More smoke and mirrors. Why the heavy defense for game symbols and meanings?


Originally posted by Cicada
I thought you didn't want to bring the soul into this.


Per above, you want me to. I'm content talking about the mind, but do feel more is at stake.


Originally posted by Cicada
Again, blaming elements from a game to me sounds like a compensation for weak personal character.


Not here to fight or make claims about anyone's personal character (though you seem to have no reservations as I have previously admitted to being affected), just reporting what I see and how it applies.

[edit on 27-9-2005 by saint4God]



posted on Sep, 27 2005 @ 11:52 AM
link   
Truce.

We don't see eye to eye on the matter and there's no point in ping-ponging this topic back and forth between us. I doubt any one else is even paying attention to this conversation at this point. We are both trying to make points that neither of us are receptive to. Thanks for the conversation, I did enjoy it.



posted on Sep, 27 2005 @ 12:30 PM
link   

Originally posted by Cicada
Truce.

We don't see eye to eye on the matter and there's no point in ping-ponging this topic back and forth between us. I doubt any one else is even paying attention to this conversation at this point. We are both trying to make points that neither of us are receptive to. Thanks for the conversation, I did enjoy it.


I agree there's much we don't see eye to eye on, however I think there were a few points you'd touched on that had me thinking further. Specifically, on the hack and slash system of gaming. There aren't many gaming options out there, though did enjoy Sims (for a little while), Rollercoaster Tycoon, and Emperor. In hack and slash, I hadn't really seen it as 'killing' since everything always comes back. There is no loss. That could have a negative influence, I don't know. *shrugs* I'd like to hear more opinions on it.



posted on Sep, 27 2005 @ 01:20 PM
link   

Originally posted by Cicada
I doubt any one else is even paying attention to this conversation at this point. We are both trying to make points that neither of us are receptive to. Thanks for the conversation, I did enjoy it.

No, I enjoyed it too. The bar has been raised recently in the SS forum - this discussion being a good example of that.



posted on Sep, 27 2005 @ 03:06 PM
link   

Originally posted by Trinityman
No, I enjoyed it too. The bar has been raised recently in the SS forum - this discussion being a good example of that.


That's quite a compliment to all of us on this thread I think. Thank you Trinityman for the kind words.


[edit on 27-9-2005 by saint4God]



posted on Jan, 2 2009 @ 03:50 AM
link   
reply to post by Nygdan
 
From a long standing member of the Rosicrucian Order, please consider the origin of the Rose Croix from another point of view. In recent years (post 1400 AD) it has taken on a new meaning which is correctly reported by en.wikipedia.org... Many later organizations have incorporated the teachings of the Rosicrucian order in a lesser form, such as the freemasons and shriners, but the true teachings of the Rosicrucians stem from before the time of christ, and incorporate the teachings of the society which formed the basis of Christ's beliefs, the en.wikipedia.org...

The underlying belief in Essene teachings it that reality is flexible, it only exists because of spirit. The universe if left to itself would be a formless gray miasma, but when it is crossed against itself by the spirit, or intent, reality manifests, hence the cross and the rose, the manifestation of reality.

Recall the scene in the matrix "the trick is to realize that the spoon isn't there". When I was active in the Rosicrucean order those of us who rose to the top were referred to as the illuminati within the order. At that time you could only become rosicrucian by invitation, which was made available every fifth year. At that time the belief was that mankind was not developed enough to be entrusted with the powers taught by the Rosicruceans, and each manuscript received had to be kept under lock and key and we were sworn to never reveal the teachings to a non-Rosicrucian. We were told that the order would open it's doors to all students in the new millenium, and I see this has now occurred so any serious student of the occult would be able to apply for membership without invitation.

I would urge, however, that no one should undertake this teaching until they are certain they have reached a level of social development which assures they can be responsible, to do only good with what they learn.



posted on Jan, 12 2009 @ 01:56 PM
link   
Two more expansions came out for World of Warcraft and they've really expanded upon their references towards secret societies. A prominent one is the Argent Dawn is a pretty clear reflection of the Golden Dawn. A slight twist of words turns Bamophet to Temple Telhamat in a place called Hellfire Peninsula. This area as well as others are overrun by demons of all sizes, two-headed demondogs, and Culuthas (instead of Cthulu). The new profession 'inscription' allows you to make magical glyphs that can be used as enhancements, some of which require tarot cards. I think Blizzard is getting more used to and comfortable with referring to these groups/rituals, making the veil thinner.

[edit on 12-1-2009 by saint4God]



new topics

top topics



 
1
<< 1  2  3   >>

log in

join