Are we Already inside the Great Trib?

a reply to: BuzzyWigs

Yea, I agree with you anyone is invited to threads and to derail threads as long as they follow the rules of ATS. I wouldn't have responded if it wasn't the same tired ole arguments by the same people. I already regret responding and is a battle i can't win on ATS.

a reply to: JDmOKI

Huh? so you can't be Christian and take responsibility and be involved in the future of society and the well being of the planet?

Don't blame me for what you said!

If you're Christian and can see their perspective, We're living in probably the biggest change humans have ever witnessed in a very very short amount of time. Humans live a far different lifestyle due to technology in just 20 years, everything is completely different. We have widespread war and threats of war and people are rejecting Christianity while Islam is the fastest growing religion and will be the vast majority of the creationist in my lifetime at the rate of it's growth.

Based on a Christians perspective this seems like a reasonable topic to discuss based on the circumstances of the present.

"Pre-Tribulation Rapture – This doctrine says that all born again Christians will be caught up to Jesus BEFORE the 7 year tribulation starts. Thus Christians will escape any end time trials."
heavenshelpers.org...

As long as these Christians are touting their end of the world death cult, discouraging people from participating in creating a future for mankind, while waiting for a magical sky being to come and rescue them, their children will be robbed of hope and made into slaves to their own self fulfilling demise and they do no good for mankind in general.

How about you stop side stepping the content of my post by claiming Christian victimization and address the issues that were actually brought up in my post?

a reply to: windword

How does believing in the second coming of Christ stop Christians from doing anything? Do they all quit their jobs and lock themselves into rooms waiting for the end times? Christian victimization? wth are you ranting about?

You have some serious hate and demeaning views about Christians perspectives about life and how they live life. If you can mind read and know every perspective of every Christian maybe you're the second coming?

OMG! praise Windword!

a reply to: JDmOKI

I already regret responding and is a battle i can't win on ATS.

Why do you regret it?

The OP title is:
Are we Already inside the Great Trib?

That is a question. Some of us have taken the time to respond to the same old, tired question once more. "No, it is not the Great Trib."

A direct, on-topic response to the OP's question. What good would it do, tell me, JD, if only Christians who believe in the Great Trib answer the question? Then it just becomes a mutual assurance society meeting.

A question is presented when the asker would like an answer.
You're just miffed that we are on topic, and we are answering "no." Oh well.
Not everyone will believe us; nor will everyone believe you.

Same tired ole arguments by the same people.

LOL!!

Same tired ole questions ...... same tired ole answers. yawn

a reply to: JDmOKI

careful.........

No one here is hating. No one is demeaning. We are speaking our opinions, which are just as valid as yours. It's just that ours are based in the realm of secular facts, and you don't like it.

Some of us are atheists, others are agnostics. I am an agnostic.
And yes, JD, there are people who have quit their jobs, sold everything, and said goodbye. Harold Camping told them to do that. Jim Jones told people some other stuff about aliens, I think. It's nonsense.
Please don't teach nonsense. There is no "second coming" encore of the Bible story. Don't expect it. That way you won't be disappointed. And if it happens - then WOW! You can be surprised! Just don't go round being expectant and anxious and sucking others into your self-inflicted uneasiness....it isn't healthy.

Plus, "if you never have expectations, you can't be disappointed."

a reply to: JDmOKI

How does believing in the second coming of Christ stop Christians from doing anything?

The second coming of "Christ" represents the destruction of Earth and civilization as we know it. It's a self loathing doctrine. Do you support that mindset?

"End times" doctrine supporters, also, do actually chastise Christains, and others, who live their lives as if the world isn't going to end, who save their money for retirement and save for their kids education, like nice things and donate money to universities and science endeavors, instead of sending it to them, for their lack of faith. It's a scam that robs its believers of hope. It's an evil-anti humanity doctrine that deserves absolutely zero support.

I know because I was there. I was raised in an "end times" Pentecostal environment. I have seen the destruction of lives, due to the application of this doctrine, first hand.

a reply to: ketsuko

It is as ambiguous as others. Though Paul himself made allusions that he would see the end times.

As another member pointed out believing in this end times judgement day doctrine is dangerous. I know some believers who have flat out said they don't care about taking care of the environment because God will soon be destroying the earth anyways. I'm sorry but I want my children to have a world. I want them to be able to eat fish out of the rivers and lakes.

I've been reading for 20 years the end will be this year and then next year and then next year. Jesus is coming for judgement soon they say. It's 2016 now and we are still here and no tribulation.

a reply to: Joecanada11

Exactly. It is dangerous, and a defeatist, Eeyore-esque motivation-killer.

Thanks for saying so.

originally posted by: windword
a reply to: JDmOKI

How does believing in the second coming of Christ stop Christians from doing anything?

"End times" doctrine supporters, also, do actually chastise Christains, and others, who live their lives as if the world isn't going to end, who save their money for retirement and save for their kids education, like nice things and donate money to universities and science endeavors, instead of sending it to them, for their lack of faith. It's a scam that robs its believers of hope. It's an evil-anti humanity doctrine that deserves absolutely zero support.

I know because I was there. I was raised in an "end times" Pentecostal environment. I have seen the destruction of lives, due to the application of this doctrine, first hand.

I haven't been in a Pentecostal school. And never said that one should not save for retirement or send kids to college. Those who say that profane the name Christian and the prophecy of Old Testament.

Actually, my question of Great Trib is open ended, as someone noticed correctly. It is good to discuss possibilities, that are not encircled only with fanatic Yes or No answers. "Yes" camp being the fundamental (pentecostal or other) expectation of doomsday starting tomorrow, and "No" camp to be in almost full denial of prophecy and merely equal the Gospel to a moral teaching without any strive to fulfill Kingdom of God. Paradoxically, the church-goers int heir multitudes have that view in mind. They do not want any kingdom of God different from what they have already achieved, may be quite egoistic at times deaf for the sufferings of the majority Christians in 3rd world. Let not forget that the Christianity (whichever denomination) is not religion of select rich people living predominantly in the West, who have multi-million income to declare each year, and who find it easier to drop big checks in church, not only to assure ticket for heaven, but also to be deducted from taxes. That s good, and I don't ever say it is something wrong. It is not sin to be rich and to have good life, to be heathy etc. But let be open minded that too many Christians, more than one could count around in the Sunday mass, do not enjoy the same. We either have one Christian community worldwide, regardless of the names, or we don't have any Christian in the communities we use for other public goals.

I think the Christianity should also remember it comes as a branch out of the Jewish tree, as Paul said. The Jews seem have something in mind, if you follow their prophecy based only on Old Testament and Rabbi's teachings. It is unwise not to take account of all of that. In a world so close to fundamental religious fanaticism, mostly Islamic. Let be prepared, and if good comes first, who will reject the good? The hungry could be fed by products from 3D printers starting tomorrow. The sick could be cured with 3D printed new organs, or more elaborated DNA medicines. Someone said somewhere, the Jews already have them.

a reply to: 2012newstart

Can one be a Christian and NOT excitedly hope for the realization of the book of Revelation, hope for the return of "Christ" and the destruction of the civilization and the world as we know it? Can one be a Christian and NOT hate the world and civilization as we know it?

a reply to: windword

the Christians are not living in isolated island but in the world. However we should not be deaf and blind for what is happening in that world.

originally posted by: 2012newstart
There are Enough signs to support that hypothesis. There are enough reasons to say we are still not inside it. One of them obviously the absence of the Mark of the Beast.

Let see what Jesus says in direct text. He says many false christs will come. He doesn't say one big anti-christ will come. He doesn't say one mark will be implemented. Even less, electronic chip.

The problem with the books of Gospel is, they were rewritten repeatedly (or some even created) at least one up to two centuries after the deaths of the apostles. So is the book of Revelation that is found as chapter 1 paprirus not before the end of 2nd century. But let say they are all correct, no matter what we have are later manuscripts.

We have to make difference between direct wording of Lord Jesus, and visions of Paul, and John.

Looking at that way, the End times may well be over us, when nation will rise against nation (WW1, WW2) when natural calamities will intensify, when the powers of heaven will be shaken. (how many comets and asteroids buzzed us).

Where is the Abomination of Desolation of Daniel? That may be seen in various aspects too. The Jewish sacrifice is absent for millenia. The Christian sacrifice exists. But it is quite corrupt service by people who shouldn't be called with that name. I could say more. I prefer to stop at that point. No, I do not expect a future pope to come and abolish mass in St Peter's, to declare him the false prophet. I do not expect that to happen in Jerusalem or elsewhere. Because that is not what Daniel speaks of. Daniel never ever spoke of the Church after Jesus Christ. Instead, he spoke directly of the last week of years.

Other interpretation surfaced recently, that Daniel's 70 weeks are 70 jubilees, 49 years each. Some estimations available online show the current jubilee year is exactly the 70th jubilee since the first one established after the long years of Exodus.

Much could be said about who is the Messiah ben David expected by the Jews. Is it equal to the Second Coming of Jesus or not.

One single issue may change the scales. It is the 144,000. Their appearance is given in the book of Revelation to precede not only the antichrist but also the calamities preceding the antichrist. The role of those innocent youngsters is quite unknown. Apparently they are sealed to do some special mission, not to become martyrs, as some superficial views on Revelation hurry to say. Again we see the number 144,000 in chapter 14 on Mt Zion, described as firstfruits of God and the Lamb who follow the Lamb wherever he goes. I'd rather think of a more universal role of the 144,000 that will ultimately reach the cosmic significance. The timing of their second appearance in Rev.14 comes shortly before the fall of Babylon, that means shortly before the rise of the beast. No matter the rise of the beast is described in the previous Chpater 13. We know well, those chapters are zoom in. That is, we have the role of the 144,000 before, not during the reign of the antichrist, if we follow the timeline of John's Revelation. Because we can't have the rise of the beast before the fall of Babyon.

If we don't follow that sequence but prefer the direct wordings of Jesus and the short texts of Daniel, we have all necessary signs of Great Trib upon us. We don't have to wait for more, in order to declare we are already in.

Regardless of what timeline one will prefer to follow, it is clear the chosen ones in this greedy world suffer exceedingly right now. Be they part of the 144,000 or not. If they all die, something ultimately to happen, or/and if the remaining part of them are raptured, the world will sink in complete chaos. We still don't have asteroids to strike and 200 mln army to march from East because the 144,000 plus the uncountable number of suffering people are still alive on this planet.

It is not something for granted. The next weeks will show whether that grouping will be removed, or will be empowered for the last extension before the big doom. Such extension is possible indeed, because it would correspond to the duration of War in Heaven/Space that is to take quite a long time. But that shouldn't be taken for granted either. That war may have been already done. What John saw remains his vision, not direct wordings of Jesus Christ.

I guess the church officials who have all power in spiritual matters, are short of acknowledging the realities of the teaching they preach. Intentionally or not, they do not make it easier rather harder for the world and Christendom to cope with the problems of today, that amount to Apocalyptic ones.

I can't end that post with a definite conclusion are we in the last 3.5 years or not yet. 1260 days after December 21, 2012 expire on June 3, 2016. That is not a proof though. We have everything, including a number of prominent Jews who accept Jesus Christ, in order to declare, here it is the Great Trib.

I believe no one will want to see as a proof the mass persecution of "Christians" in the way of the first centuries, if we have today's vague meaning of being Christian. Even less, the mass implanted chip to represent the Mark. That may well be a tattoo known at the time of John, or let say a bracelet with the sign of the devil, etc. Or tomorrow some hologram quite different from the chips. Many people are marked with the sign of devil, regardless of how we describe it. Could it be the smartphone, if it is used for serving satan?

The least problem is to name a politician for the role of the antichrist. We have many of them who make our life a hellish nightmare on earth. Despite all inventions including computers and smartphones unknown to previous generations, or exactly because of that.

It is easy to say, hahaha, the 144,000 youths existed always, the priesthood may be (???), or in every generation, it will not change anything. It is difficult for many to realize God is still waiting not because the signs are not given, or because the time has not arrived. He may rapture those 144,000 or let say 14 mln good people overnight, and the world will plunge in darkness bigger than any imagination in series of Left Behind and other apocalyptic movies. One does not need antichrist from USA or the seat of EU, because he can be Romanian, Hungarian, Syrian, anywhere in the former Roman empire...If God doesn't do that, not yet, it is for some reason. It is naive to say the next 20 years will continue as the previous 20 years after the Cold War. No they won't. And those on top know that perfectly and prepare for the underground caves, according to Revelation 6th seal.

I determined that "the abomination of desolation" is "the mark of the beast" as we are the temple of God and Jesus rebuilt the temple in 3 days. There will be no 3rd temple thus no worries about construction time lines for that scenerio.

You can read it here:
www.numberman.net...

As far as the tribulation I was told 2018 when chatting with a being as I was waking up. Perhaps something notable and perhaps around 7-27-2018.

a reply to: NumberMan

Yes. You see there are so many antichrists, so many 7 year sets in history, or 70 or 1260 if you look for them. The humanity suffers unspeakable. Why after 15 centuries of Christian rulers over Europe the people in France did the French revolution, that was not a velvet revolution?

To seek one antichrist now and to expect one final set of 7 or 3.5 years, it loses point. It has already happened. Mark of the beast could be everything as I explained in previous posts. Moreover Jesus himself doesn't talk of any mark of any beast. Neither Daniel does. Only John does, in the latest book... Even if taken for granted, it is a time to reassess that too.

If tomorrow happens the final battle, I would not call it Armageddon rather Gog and Magog war, it shouldn't surprise anyone. What if not the final battle, would be a massive nuclear war? We tent to think in terms of Horishima only. Today we have megaton bombs, and some unknown to public threshold of atmosphere supporting nuclear blasts (above 56 mt). What use of all theology and all theories, if we are collectively punished for what we are not guilty of, and instead are told that we must sacrifice even more? Notice not everyone will die immediately in the nuclear war, but will undergo painful existence for some time, shown pretty clear in apocalyptic serials. A celestial impact is no better option.

Having all that in mind, it sounds creepy the attempts of clerics to present a picture of growing kingdom of God on earth while we are told to pray and sacrifice even more, by unknown personages who pose as virgin maries and jesuses in so called apparitions. It is nothing less than satanic plan to depopulate humanity and thus to cancel the promise of God given to Abraham of his descendants to be as numerous as the stars in the sky (thousands of trillions).