Are we Already inside the Great Trib?

There are Enough signs to support that hypothesis. There are enough reasons to say we are still not inside it. One of them obviously the absence of the Mark of the Beast.

Let see what Jesus says in direct text. He says many false christs will come. He doesn't say one big anti-christ will come. He doesn't say one mark will be implemented. Even less, electronic chip.

The problem with the books of Gospel is, they were rewritten repeatedly (or some even created) at least one up to two centuries after the deaths of the apostles. So is the book of Revelation that is found as chapter 1 paprirus not before the end of 2nd century. But let say they are all correct, no matter what we have are later manuscripts.

We have to make difference between direct wording of Lord Jesus, and visions of Paul, and John.

Looking at that way, the End times may well be over us, when nation will rise against nation (WW1, WW2) when natural calamities will intensify, when the powers of heaven will be shaken. (how many comets and asteroids buzzed us).

Where is the Abomination of Desolation of Daniel? That may be seen in various aspects too. The Jewish sacrifice is absent for millenia. The Christian sacrifice exists. But it is quite corrupt service by people who shouldn't be called with that name. I could say more. I prefer to stop at that point. No, I do not expect a future pope to come and abolish mass in St Peter's, to declare him the false prophet. I do not expect that to happen in Jerusalem or elsewhere. Because that is not what Daniel speaks of. Daniel never ever spoke of the Church after Jesus Christ. Instead, he spoke directly of the last week of years.

Other interpretation surfaced recently, that Daniel's 70 weeks are 70 jubilees, 49 years each. Some estimations available online show the current jubilee year is exactly the 70th jubilee since the first one established after the long years of Exodus.

Much could be said about who is the Messiah ben David expected by the Jews. Is it equal to the Second Coming of Jesus or not.

One single issue may change the scales. It is the 144,000. Their appearance is given in the book of Revelation to precede not only the antichrist but also the calamities preceding the antichrist. The role of those innocent youngsters is quite unknown. Apparently they are sealed to do some special mission, not to become martyrs, as some superficial views on Revelation hurry to say. Again we see the number 144,000 in chapter 14 on Mt Zion, described as firstfruits of God and the Lamb who follow the Lamb wherever he goes. I'd rather think of a more universal role of the 144,000 that will ultimately reach the cosmic significance. The timing of their second appearance in Rev.14 comes shortly before the fall of Babylon, that means shortly before the rise of the beast. No matter the rise of the beast is described in the previous Chpater 13. We know well, those chapters are zoom in. That is, we have the role of the 144,000 before, not during the reign of the antichrist, if we follow the timeline of John's Revelation. Because we can't have the rise of the beast before the fall of Babyon.

If we don't follow that sequence but prefer the direct wordings of Jesus and the short texts of Daniel, we have all necessary signs of Great Trib upon us. We don't have to wait for more, in order to declare we are already in.

Regardless of what timeline one will prefer to follow, it is clear the chosen ones in this greedy world suffer exceedingly right now. Be they part of the 144,000 or not. If they all die, something ultimately to happen, or/and if the remaining part of them are raptured, the world will sink in complete chaos. We still don't have asteroids to strike and 200 mln army to march from East because the 144,000 plus the uncountable number of suffering people are still alive on this planet.

It is not something for granted. The next weeks will show whether that grouping will be removed, or will be empowered for the last extension before the big doom. Such extension is possible indeed, because it would correspond to the duration of War in Heaven/Space that is to take quite a long time. But that shouldn't be taken for granted either. That war may have been already done. What John saw remains his vision, not direct wordings of Jesus Christ.

I guess the church officials who have all power in spiritual matters, are short of acknowledging the realities of the teaching they preach. Intentionally or not, they do not make it easier rather harder for the world and Christendom to cope with the problems of today, that amount to Apocalyptic ones.

I can't end that post with a definite conclusion are we in the last 3.5 years or not yet. 1260 days after December 21, 2012 expire on June 3, 2016. That is not a proof though. We have everything, including a number of prominent Jews who accept Jesus Christ, in order to declare, here it is the Great Trib.

I believe no one will want to see as a proof the mass persecution of "Christians" in the way of the first centuries, if we have today's vague meaning of being Christian. Even less, the mass implanted chip to represent the Mark. That may well be a tattoo known at the time of John, or let say a bracelet with the sign of the devil, etc. Or tomorrow some hologram quite different from the chips. Many people are marked with the sign of devil, regardless of how we describe it. Could it be the smartphone, if it is used for serving satan?

The least problem is to name a politician for the role of the antichrist. We have many of them who make our life a hellish nightmare on earth. Despite all inventions including computers and smartphones unknown to previous generations, or exactly because of that.

It is easy to say, hahaha, the 144,000 youths existed always, the priesthood may be (???), or in every generation, it will not change anything. It is difficult for many to realize God is still waiting not because the signs are not given, or because the time has not arrived. He may rapture those 144,000 or let say 14 mln good people overnight, and the world will plunge in darkness bigger than any imagination in series of Left Behind and other apocalyptic movies. One does not need antichrist from USA or the seat of EU, because he can be Romanian, Hungarian, Syrian, anywhere in the former Roman empire...If God doesn't do that, not yet, it is for some reason. It is naive to say the next 20 years will continue as the previous 20 years after the Cold War. No they won't. And those on top know that perfectly and prepare for the underground caves, according to Revelation 6th seal.

a reply to: 2012newstart

Many study the Bible in such rigorous detail that we can't see the forest for the trees. I have no reason to, in general, agree that this idea may indeed be the case. Wasn't there something about a thief in the night? Yes, we could be in that time as we speak and the final judgment may be upon us, and possibly in a manner that won't be quite so easily profited from by the charlatans, the false prophets.

damn I was thinking of the wrong tribbing.

talk about misleading title.

Yep, one more thing is the rebuilt actual city of Babylon being popular and adored by throngs

Other than that ready set go

It has to be the real one just south of Bagdad.... sixty clicks

a reply to: Lysergic

Great Trib is quite popular term though.

map of Roman empire in 117 AD cdn3.vox-cdn.com...
Notice most if not all hot spots today are there, except for the Koreas. Antichrist doesn't have to reign over the UN, or may be he will. Our understanding is biased, as the poster before said, because of so many interpretations, that may indeed see the trees but lose the forest. We are unprepared to react to super-natural occurrence (may be not exactly The Rapture). Let say the sealing of the 144,000 and empowering them to do their mission, IF we are still not in those final 3.5 years. The repeated delay of the Rapture and/or the 144,000, as well as the numerous comets near miss that were trumped, along with the craziness around 2012, lead me to think that might be symbolic language of John, who after all saw a VISION not a direct talk to sit and record Jesus walking on earth. John is right. But don't take it for a dogma.

a reply to: 2012newstart

Just. Stop.

Enough already. I've tried and I'm still seeking it. You're trying...

If you really want to know what's going on, research The Ant People.

Once you realize who The Ant People were...and why...then you'll be able to lay down your cognitive scalpel, and you'll realize why.

Again, research The Ant People, then, ask yourself who they were, and who needed to know who they were...

Big Hint...how does one interact with children? The parallels alone are awesome to ponder...but specifically, who were The Ant People?

Seek it. Seriously, seek it.

a reply to: 2012newstart

no...

No we're not... this isn't "end times"

a reply to: Akragon

Why Not? Would you please give your arguments?

We had two world wars, never seen after the Flood. Why is it supposed nuclear war to be a must before the rise of the final antichrist? Only because we have nukes? It will kill everyone, including the followers of the antichrist, it is a non starter. Rather, fearing about it, as well as asteroids, exactly as Jesus speaks in Matthew and Luke, the people will FEAR what is to come. Not necessarily the humanity to be wiped out almost entirely. That may happen later but not necessarily before the rise of the antichrist. Otherwise, whom he will rule over? Dead shores and depopulated cities? He is smarter than that, not only the personage but also all those who make him rise. In every epoch there are such people. What stops it to be now? The answer IMO is simply Nothing. Even the Rapture might be symbolic or to happen in the night preceding the judgment. We may well be inside the final 3.5 years.

We all remember the heavy weight that not politicians and religious, but mass culture and mass influencing movies made it possible the phenomenon 2012 to happen. Now we are 1260 days almost after it. Although I am not going to defend the stone calendar of Mayans, all that hype has some purpose beyond the simple Yes or No answer of whether we are at the end times now.

I prefer to err on the side of overcaution. 27 years after the Cold War, there are all signs of End times now, and we don't need anything more. We have abomination of desolation on too many places. Sorry I won't speak about that more than simply mentioning it.

a reply to: 2012newstart

Sure...

1. First of all, Revelation was likely written by a delusional old man with some sort of dementia.

2. Jesus said no one knows the time... not even him

3. every Christian generation since the birth of Christ thought it was end times, including those born in his time... and even before that...

4. IF one takes revelation seriously... its almost all allusions to different things in the time it was written... not 2000 some odd years later...

5. Paul expected the second coming in his life time... which signified "end times"... he was wrong...

6. Every Christian generation since the birth of Christ expected his return in their life time... they were all wrong...

7. End times is actually when we destroy ourselves... which isn't going to happen anytime soon...

8. Or when the sun dies... which isn't going to happen anytime soon

Shall i continue?

a reply to: Akragon

All of that is true. Still ONCE it will happen. Not TWICE. We will not have a second chance, as Noah didn't have a second chance to enter the Ark. If we miss it, we don't just miss our physical lives. We miss the generations to come in the New Earth promised by God. So again, I prefer to err on the side of overcaution.

===============================================================
BTW I have to answer another poster, that I give the idea of 144,000 innocent to be empowered, not as a must, but as an option. It may well be done symbolically in the decades of expectation every next anniversary of liberation the Holy Land. And that year count of a generation that will ultimately die off, they are dying off before our eyes, is may be the biggest argument for the timing to be now, in these years or even months.

a reply to: Akragon

Jesus himself said
Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.

Therefore Christ himself thought he would come back before his apostles according to that statement. Therefore no tribulation. Thank "god" for that.

a reply to: 2012newstart

Noah was more then likely a fictional character... So don't worry if he was late or not on building the ark...

It will only happen once though...

We'll destroy ourselves because we are a genuinely stupid species.... or we won't figure out a way to get off this planet before its destroyed by the death of our star...

No Jesus coming in the clouds...

No four horsemen riding though the sky spreading pestilence and death...

no trumpets

its just a story... that wasn't even accepted as canon by the "church" until the mid 4th century anyways

a reply to: 2012newstart

Please understand what I am saying. I apologize for the perceived "off topic post". I do not intend to derail the thread.

When one is capable of understanding the Hopi "Ant People" many things become clear.

There was a Human who perceived ants...and then life for Humans got really hard.

Underground was a last resort. Ants...and observation.

People lived like ants. People LIVED like ants. Kids asked questions, needed answers and entertainment.

The Ant People became the Survivor mentality. Truth in Fiction.

Kids lived and shared the legend.

It all started by observation, which led to survival, which led to a Father dressing up as an Ant Man to entertain the kids, people.

The children told the story.

We are are their children.

The story is powerful.

All stories are powerful.

We now know why, but we forget... We are the children, until The Ant People return.

Our lives are getting ready to be fun again, not for us, but yeah, for us.

originally posted by: 2012newstart
a reply to: Lysergic

Great Trib is quite popular term though.

Yeah its popular, thought it was going to be the Greatest Tribbing.

My loss I suppose.

a reply to: Boscov

I don't even know what to say to that.

a reply to: 2012newstart

I find threads like this disheartening... Humans are still trying to find the right interpretation of a death cult revelation, life is in the living, wish more people would join it and starting making it better...

originally posted by: Akragon
a reply to: 2012newstart


We'll destroy ourselves because we are a genuinely stupid species.... or we won't figure out a way to get off this planet before its destroyed by the death of our star...

Well that was the issue I wanted to address too. The only way, imo, to avoid being dead ended here and now, is the humanity to open itself to the wider Universe. As they had knowledge in Babylon, Egypt and Mezo America.

My answer is, with Jesus, not without him. I will intentionally not go into "galactic christianity" topic that I developed in other threads, and because it is ill understood by many, even by those clerics who should have taken the lead so far.

Here I want to concentrate of whether we are in the final days of our civilization on earth or not. It does not have to be all nuclear. Biological is equally or more terrible. One cannot but wonder, why all those years after the Cold War were lost in stupidity. By now, according to political promises back then, we should've been a paradise garden, and we are not.

What is it we are still not told of? Nibiru? Again topic that will bring so much negativity. In fact I am quite positive in my assessments, and looking for the positive outcome. But such doesn't come on the horizon, as of today. Hope tomorrow, next week, next month, we will have it. Or it is the end of game, even if not the end of the world.