Abortion doctors would lose medical licenses under new Oklahoma bill

a reply to: ThirdEyeofHorus

I don't know how you get all that out of what I posted...
if someone on medicaid gets a sliver in their finger, and it get's infected, does the gov't only pay for the antibiotics to treat the infection, or does it also pay for the doctor to surgically remove the sliver also?
so if someone on medicaid has a miscarriage and the fetus is in distress but not developed enough to survive outside the womb, why do you think it is inappropriate not to remove the source of the infection and only treat the paitent with antibiotics?
and well, the law in discussing isn't even talking about gov't funds it's saying it will revoke the license of any doctor that decides to remove the source of the infection!

if you are saying that you don't want taxpayer money going to help with the poor's healthcare that is fine, but if you want to separate women's reproductive care and treat it differently from all the other healthcare, that's where I have a problem..
why aren't you griping about all the money the gov't spends on bringing these babies into the world?

originally posted by: ThirdEyeofHorus
Society will pay the karmic price either way.

Does karma buy diapers, formula, baby food?

a reply to: Annee

you might as well substitute God for "Karma" and say, oh yes, the evil doers will get their just rewards after death, until then they can live like kings and cause as much chaos and pain as they desire... women and children though, are expected to play by different rules while the bear the brunt of the chaos and pain.

a reply to: dawnstar

I do believe I said there's a point of life and death for the mother but it doesn't mesn sdcrificing the baby for quality of life. Even Margaret Sanger did not prefer abortion as a means to control population but I'm
Not too sure I like the whole sterilization thing particularly imvulumtary which is what john holdren advocates. People ate unwittingly buying into the population control agenda and this it becomes part of that to advocate abortion on demand as quick fixes for sticky problems.

originally posted by: dawnstar
a reply to: Annee

you might as well substitute God for "Karma" and say, oh yes, the evil doers will get their just rewards after death, until then they can live like kings and cause as much chaos and pain as they desire... women and children though, are expected to play by different rules...

You'll like this.

I explained that my believe is we are all eternal energy beings, that physical is a manifestation we choose to experience.

That a soul may nurture the physical body being grown, but does not occupy it until after it is viable and enters the realm chosen.

If the fetus is terminated, the soul simply chooses another. Physical death has no effect. The energy soul is eternal.

I got lambasted for creating an excuse, LOL. My belief, apparently, has no validity.

a reply to: ThirdEyeofHorus

allowing a women the freedom to choice when and how many children she brings into the world is the most humane method of population control. and well, during times when the population has gotten out of control, society's methods of dealing with it has been far from humane.

but, the conservative right seems to be against
sex education
birth control
abortion
as well as the humane treatment when the population of the poor and destitute reach problematic numbers...

I don't believe there are that many women out there that are using abortion as a birth control method, and if they are, they are downright crazy or just too stupid to care about the long lasting effects that many pregnancies/abortions can cause. and what you term as convenience, for all I know, ranges from not having to lie in bed for month on end letting your two year old rummage through the trashcan and fridge for a bite to eat, to not wanting to bother with the responsibility of it all.. is it convenient for a mother to abort a child when the doctor tells her she will lose her sight if she carries it to term? was it just inconvenient for Tamesha Means to have been sent home several times while in the process of a miscarriage being told that there was nothing that could be done to suffer in pain for days while infection attacked her body?? she's not the only one that suffered like this in catholic hospitals, one women ended up having preventable surgery to repair the damage the infection caused.. is this just a mere inconvenience?
not all women who are aborting babies are doing it for convenience sake, and there is a wide range to convenience!

a reply to: Annee
I tend to believe the same way, after all there are far too many natural miscarriages, and it would be so unjust that those little souls wouldn't have another chance at life.

but far too many of those openly spouting their religious beliefs have been found to be doing something really horrific.. especially when it comes to priests, minister, and politicians. I've kind of come to conclusion that those who are the most powerful in the religious groups don't believe one word of what they are saying, if they did, they would certainly act differently. they just want us to buy it, so that we will allow ourselves to be made vulnerable to them and their whims and desires.... of which it will be a cold chance in hell that they will ever be punished for their deeds, or they do they will be so old and delipidated, that it's more of a perk that they get sent to jail, since then, the taxpayer gets to pay their insanely high healthcare costs!

a reply to: Annee

That doesn't make any sense. How am I not staying on topic?

There needs to be civil discussion regarding abortion. Just because it is legal now does not make it morally okay.

I gave an example from the past where an immoral activity (slavery) was wrong, yet lawful and later changed.

If you can't comprehend that than I have nothing further to say to you.

a reply to: windword

Oh what a slippery slope that would be, wouldn't it.

Not letting a woman kill her unborn child is not slavery. As I mentioned earlier they can put the baby up for adoption.

Stop assuming these women are victims of life.

Practicing safe sex and living more chaste lives would solve this problem.

originally posted by: ArnoldNonymous

Not letting a woman kill her unborn child is not slavery.

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Snore.

originally posted by: ArnoldNonymous

There needs to be civil discussion regarding abortion.

NO, there doesn't.

originally posted by: ArnoldNonymous

Not letting a woman kill her unborn child is not slavery. As I mentioned earlier they can put the baby up for adoption.

Stop assuming these women are victims of life.

Practicing safe sex and living more chaste lives would solve this problem.

"Just have the baby and give it up for adoption!"

"Just go down to Starbucks and grab me a latte!"

Good God, really?! Being the pregnant one on here let me tell you: I haven't been able to take my medications since the beginning, but I have to choke down a prenatal horse pill every day. I suffer daily from carpal tunnel, sciatica and a painful pelvic injury that happened in my last pregnancy. I need surgery to repair a hernia that was caused by my pregnancies. I'm 40 pounds overweight right now and it's ALL baby and fluid. Not to mention the cost of everything- including the $40 per week for a chiropractor- who I don't have to see when I'm not pregnant. When I have the baby I HAVE to have a c-section, which means hospital stay, long recovery time, potential death and frankly, slicing the entire lower portion of my abdomen wide open. AND in case you missed my previous post, I've been through 7 doctors trying to get friggin prenatal care. In America. In 2016. With insurance. That alone has caused countless hours of crying and worrying, which isn't good for the fetus.

And I'm not even going to comment on 'just give it away'.

Birth control? Leave that dead horse alone. It's already been discussed that a lot of abortions stem from failed birth control. I recently read about a girl in Africa who was using condoms with her boyfriend, condom failed, she got pregnant, abortion is illegal there so she got a back alley abortion from a 'pro' with a bicycle spoke. Can you guess how that one ended? Spoiler alert: she died. I've even been looking into getting my tubes tied- even THAT isn't 100%. If I did, I could still develop an ectopic pregnancy which would what? have to be removed via abortion.

My body, my choice.

Her body, her choice.

Your body, your choice.

The end.

a reply to: ArnoldNonymous

Not letting a woman kill her unborn child is not slavery.

Semantics! It's all about someone else having control over a woman and HER eggs, fertilized or not, i.e. HER body, her life.

As I mentioned earlier they can put the baby up for adoption.

You may think that's "responsible", but I don't. It may be generous, but it's not taking responsibility, it's transferring responsibility to someone else. And, this enforced sort of procreation has resulted in a corrupt system of "selling babies" to the highest bidder, and in some cases has led to human trafficking.

Stop assuming these women are victims of life.

We are all victims of life. It will kill us all.

Practicing safe sex and living more chaste lives would solve this problem.

Yawn.

originally posted by: Annee
You'll like this.
I explained that my believe is we are all eternal energy beings, that physical is a manifestation we choose to experience.
That a soul may nurture the physical body being grown, but does not occupy it until after it is viable and enters the realm chosen.
If the fetus is terminated, the soul simply chooses another. Physical death has no effect. The energy soul is eternal.

I got lambasted for creating an excuse, LOL. My belief, apparently, has no validity.

Exactly!

If you're Christian you can deny non-Christians birth control, do everything in your power to prevent access to safe abortions, fire single mothers from jobs for nothing other than being single mothers and generally treat homosexuals like sh*t.

But people like me, a non-Christian who BELIEVES in the Constitution: first doc I went to had a form "we will randomly drug test you and report positive results to CPS. This policy IS unconstitutional (4th & 5th Amendments), but technically legal because it's a private business. I refused to sign it and was happy to explain why. And I was denied prenatal care altogether.

So:
If you're a Christian you have the right to dictate other people's lives.

If you're not a Christian your beliefs mean nothing.

And if you happen to have a blob of cells inside your body that may or may not develop into another human, your rights are completely stripped from you.

Glad we cleared that up!

originally posted by: Annee
Maybe they should just be set free 'cuz they're not wanted.

Wow.

originally posted by: ArnoldNonymous
If you can't comprehend that than I have nothing further to say to you.

Then you have nothing further to say to her.

Seriously...slowly back away...now RUN! RUUUUUUUUNNNNNN!!!!!!!

originally posted by: SlapMonkey

originally posted by: Annee
Maybe they should just be set free 'cuz they're not wanted.

Wow.

Pretty much my reaction to forcing birth.

a reply to: ArnoldNonymous

There needs to be civil discussion regarding abortion. Just because it is legal now does not make it morally okay.

and yet, I think I've pointed to some instances where most would probably agree that it is morally okay.
abortion is a medical procedure, a tool for the medical profession, like a knife, or gun, a drill, ect.
abortion is a tool, and is neutral, and yes, it can be used by someone in morally questionable ways. but I don't see anyone wanting an all out ban on nail guns because some fool didn't know enough to shoot himself multiple times with it till he died...(or...maybe some one shot him multiple times and that was just a lame coverup story).

as far as judging any instance as being moral or not, well, we just can't seem to agree on just what is and what isn't moral in this instance, and our gov't is not given the freedom to rule on what is moral.

a reply to: Annee

So, here's my stance in a nutshell:

If a woman's life is in jeopardy (or for other NECESSARY medical reasons where health is affected in irreparable ways) or (reluctantly) in the cases of pregnancy from rape, I'm okay with abortion, as dawnstar is correct: It is a tool used in an appropriate way.

But, I also am of the opinion (based on DNA and the way nature works) that even a developing fetus is a unique and separate individual person, even if it must (again, because of the way nature works) rely on the mother's womb and umbilical chord in order to develop and grow until birth.

Therefore, I think that developing human beings deserve the same right to life (IMO, a law of nature) that is mentioned in the Declaration of Independence and reinforced in the 14th Amendment, where it is said in section one:

No State shall ... deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

This is where I made my comments earlier about murder or contracted killing--IF, under my opinion, fetuses are included under the "any person" part of the quote above, then they are also protected under the laws that define murder and contract killing as illegal.

Whether or not you're (or anyone else is) in agreement with my train of thought or logic as it pertains to my stance on the subject is up to you, and I'm not trying to force you to believe me.

But I am of the stance that murder is wrong, and as a civilized society, we should pass laws that make it illegal. Like I already said, I believe abortion to be murder for a descent enough reason that you shouldn't just disregard it like I'm an incoherent Donald Duck angrily ranting while pulling out my feathers. It's okay to disagree AND understand where the other side is coming from...I used to be okay with abortion across the board, but I have since changed my view quite a few years ago (obviously).

As for your comment about "forcing birth," all I can say is that people need to be more responsible with their reproductive bits if they don't want to get pregnant. Being overly cautious (while still having sex) is a great approach--the problem is that, in the age groups with the highest numbers of unwanted pregnancies, they have the most immature brains in the child-bearing spectrum. We can't fix stupid in society, but we can give plenty of ways to avoid stupid mistakes that can changes one's life forever...I don't think trading a fetus' life for one's inability to take advantage of the myriad ways we can avoid unwanted pregnancies is a good deal, individually or for society as a whole.

This is as civil as I can possibly be--it's all laid out here, without hyperbole and with plenty of explanation to show why I feel as I do. I don't expect you to agree, but I do expect a mature, civil response. If that's too much to ask, so be it.

a reply to: SlapMonkey

Do what works for you.

Do not legislate against me, forcing me to adhere to your beliefs.