North Korea fires SLBM

a reply to: Shuye

I just don't understand why it's ok for countries like the US or France to launch thousands of nuclear testing (in the name of freedom, right?)

It isn't ok. Neither the US or France are doing so.

originally posted by: Phage
a reply to: Shuye

I just don't understand why it's ok for countries like the US or France to launch thousands of nuclear testing (in the name of freedom, right?)

It isn't ok. Neither the US or France are doing so.

Well, combined they have done that, over 1200 of them ever since the first one.

a reply to: Shuye
Yes.
We both know better now.

originally posted by: Shuye
Could someone please explain to me why is it ok for US or any Western country to test their missiles, but when NK does that it's an act of war and a provocation?

Isn't it some double standard going on here?

If North Korea wasn't spending the rest of their time threatening every other country in the rest of the world with nuclear annihilation as soon they have the bomb, I'm sure it wouldn't be such a big deal because, as you say, pretty much every other nation does it.

Also, North Korea's governance structure is such that the entire country is run by one person, and if that person ends up being a crazy loon, MAD which works for most other governments in the world won't necessarily work nearly as well.

originally posted by: Shuye
a reply to: seagull

And fact of the matter is it's been 50 years since the last Korea war, and they have been making threats I guess ever since.

Unless little Kim is extremely delusional (which I don't think he is actually), he knows he cannot launch anything on the West without expecting his own regime to end. So he creates these videos and make open threats to show the poor North Koreans just how strong their nation and leader is, just like every communist countries did before.

But he's never actually gonna push the button. Why would he?

The war has, technically, never ended, and given the incidents over that time span, or really stopped, either. Oh, the propaganda coming out of Pyong Yang is pure comedy gold, or it was until Kim suddenly started growing mushrooms, or the capability to do so... Not so amusing now.

Given what nukes can do? I fail to see how we can't take threats like this seriously. That is remarkably like an ostrich burying its head in the sand...

He's never gonna push that button. You're probably right. I don't think he will, either. But his is not the most stable of personalities, by all reports, and given how members of his inner circle seem to die at regular intervals? It's only a step or two to taking his anger issues out on the world.

It doesn't take any great technological feats to fit a nuke into an artillery shell. Seoul is within artillery range of NoKo, and I have friends that live in Seoul. So I have personal reasons to see this sort of scenario not happen, preferably by peaceful means.

originally posted by: Shuye
a reply to: Rocker2013

I didn't say NK is innocent, I just don't understand why it's ok for countries like the US or France to launch thousands of nuclear testing (in the name of freedom, right?) but it's not ok when a non-Western country does that.

The US has been far more quiet when it comes to threats, but far more deadly when it was time to drop bombs... That's all i'm saying.

There is a magnitude of difference between bombs and nuclear warheads.

As to bombs, the US is hardly the only nation that drops them currently, and every nation tests their own bombs. I don't see anyone worried about North Korea testing simple bombs. What the world worries about is North Korea testing nuclear warheads.

It would be like a country carrying out bioweapons work on a super deadly bug, and then you defend them by saying, "Yes, but every other country carries out research on the flu every year."

originally posted by: Shuye

originally posted by: Phage
a reply to: Shuye

I just don't understand why it's ok for countries like the US or France to launch thousands of nuclear testing (in the name of freedom, right?)

It isn't ok. Neither the US or France are doing so.

Well, combined they have done that, over 1200 of them ever since the first one.

So where does this train of irrational thought derail?

Can we claim it's okay for a nation to begin a genocidal killing spree because the Nazis did?
Can we claim that it's okay for NK to have hundreds of thousands of people in what are nothing more than gulags and death camps because the Russians did?
Can we claim that another country can do whatever it wants in a crusade of empire building around the world because the Romans did?

The world today is a very different place to the one we were in.
While all our nations have agreed to striving for a complete end to nuclear arms, we have a couple of rogue states who seem determined to ignore that ideal.

NK is the only one repeatedly threatening to attack various other nations with such a weapon, it is the duty of our elected governments to protect our populations from such threats.

This is one thing Kimmy hasn't worked out - he's not just threatening the US for show, he's giving the entire world justification for ending him.

a reply to: ketsuko

Obviously there's a difference in magnitude, the discussion was it was not ok for NK to develop nuclear weapons (for good reasons surely) because they make threats using them, but for the West it's ok because they make no threats. They just make them you know.... for the right time.

It's just like that mini nuclear bomb design that was discussed here about a month ago, they said it was "small enough to actually use it". So no threats here.... but when the right comes... Some country's gonna get it.

That's my whole point here.

I think no country should be allowed to develop such weapons, but if they do it's not up to the countries with a full nuclear arsenal to criticize it. Therefore, a double standard.

originally posted by: seagull
So I have personal reasons to see this sort of scenario not happen, preferably by peaceful means.

I think we would all love to see a peaceful end to this situation, but I think we all know that's not going to happen.

Hopefully whatever military action we have planned will successfully prevent anything from hitting Seoul. I don't know if we have the capability to successfully take out every position threatening the capital, but I guess it might not be too hard with a coordinated effort using targeted strikes.

a reply to: Rocker2013

I have my doubts, as well.

As for targeting those artillery positions...those same friends are former military, SoKo special forces, and we've had a few discussions on this topic...not many, since it's a rather touchy topic.

The sites can be guessed at fairly easily...so I'm told. The problems is, they are incredibly well protected inside of the mountains themselves. Several feet of steel/concrete, not to mention the mountains themselves...

They're going to be a tough nut to crack, just the fortification alone. Add to that the air defenses? It'll get done, but the cost is going to be high, very high.

originally posted by: Rocker2013

originally posted by: Shuye

originally posted by: Phage
a reply to: Shuye

I just don't understand why it's ok for countries like the US or France to launch thousands of nuclear testing (in the name of freedom, right?)

It isn't ok. Neither the US or France are doing so.

Well, combined they have done that, over 1200 of them ever since the first one.

So where does this train of irrational thought derail?

Can we claim it's okay for a nation to begin a genocidal killing spree because the Nazis did?
Can we claim that it's okay for NK to have hundreds of thousands of people in what are nothing more than gulags and death camps because the Russians did?
Can we claim that another country can do whatever it wants in a crusade of empire building around the world because the Romans did?

The world today is a very different place to the one we were in.
While all our nations have agreed to striving for a complete end to nuclear arms, we have a couple of rogue states who seem determined to ignore that ideal.

NK is the only one repeatedly threatening to attack various other nations with such a weapon, it is the duty of our elected governments to protect our populations from such threats.

This is one thing Kimmy hasn't worked out - he's not just threatening the US for show, he's giving the entire world justification for ending him.

The irrational thought derails here... for challenging beliefs.

There's a difference between threat and action.
Little Kim has been threatening for years, same goes for his father Kim jong (very) il.
Obviously NK leadership are crazy whackos that needs some brain and human training. Or better, take these idiots out.

Now like I said, there's a difference between threat and action.

For the past 50 years, NK was mostly about threats, while the US was mostly about action.
People here seem to get excited about threats more than actions, for some reason.

Maybe I stopped taking NK seriously, I have learned that a dog that barks doesn't bite.

But the whole difference here, is the noisy barking dog vs the silent killer.
The silent killer is creating more and more bombs while the noisy dog can't.

To the reasonable point of view, the dog seems more dangerous, and he might be dangerous, but not as the silent killer. It's just how our brain works because we are Westerners, we pay closer attention to words and less to action.

But my whole point was from the beginning, there was a double standard... And just look where it led the topic once challenged lol.

originally posted by: Rocker2013
Hopefully whatever military action we have planned will successfully prevent anything from hitting Seoul. I don't know if we have the capability to successfully take out every position threatening the capital, but I guess it might not be too hard with a coordinated effort using targeted strikes.

If North and South decided to go at it...it would be announced with munitions hitting Seoul and Pyongyang. Which would be followed by both hitting the remainder of Korea.

There just isn't enough distance between the launch sites and the target to do much about it.

That is the irony of the entire Korea situation, there is no possible winner on the peninsula. Just a lot of dead to clean up afterwards.

originally posted by: Shuye
I think no country should be allowed to develop such weapons, but if they do it's not up to the countries with a full nuclear arsenal to criticize it. Therefore, a double standard.

It really comes down to the ultimate fact that a government is charged with protecting their OWN COUNTRY.
It's idealistic to say that no country should have nukes, a position I absolutely agree with, the core of this discussion is that the US has a right to defend itself against the potential for attack by a nation threatening it, just as NK would be right to defend itself against an attack by the US.

Ultimately, who is right in this scenario?

NK isn't being threatened daily by the US or SK, however NK is threatening to use nuclear weapons against a country that hasn't done anything to it, a country that has in fact given them aid over decades, a country which has attempted time and time again to bring it into the International community.

The US military has to look out for the American people and their interests around the world. Maybe if NK hadn't wasted the last 6 years abandoning all the positive steps it was making and started threatening to murder millions of people, it would not now find itself in the position it's now in.

I firmly believe that dealing with NK is the right thing to do, not only for us and our security, but for the security of our allies and friends, and ultimately for the people who are suffering every day under a psychotic regime in NK.

Yes, people will die in a conflict, but how many will die without that conflict?

a reply to: Rocker2013

I hope you're right, because a North Korea with nuclear capabilities in the hands of a fanatical and antagonistic dictator endangers the entire world. There definitely needs to be a united front to put an end to this regime. North Korea's neighbors really have more to worry about than the U.S.. Any nuclear exchange would put both China, Japan, South Korea and Russia in a cloud of radiation fall out.

originally posted by: Shuye
There's a difference between threat and action.
Little Kim has been threatening for years, same goes for his father Kim jong (very) il.

There's only a difference between threat and action until action is taken.
If you were a nations leader, would you really sit on your hands and just whistle a happy tune hoping that millions of your citizens will not be vaporised?

This is a ridiculous notion.

Once the threat is there you have no choice but to deal with that threat.

Imagine this were the Cold War all over again, with the difference being that Russia is still developing its nukes, while threatening to strike the US with them the second they have the capability.
Do you really think it would have been a bad choice to attack the USSR to STOP them from having that capability before they could carry out that threat?

If we do not stop NK now, we will have the same problem we had throughout the cold war, only this time it's with a nation far more deranged, far more unstable, and far less predictable than the USSR.
We're NOT dealing with a diplomat, an experienced leader, with any kind of democratic government. We're dealing with a fat little mentally disturbed child, who will soon have the capability to murder potentially millions of people with the push of a button.

We have no choice but to take out their capability, and we have no choice but to do it soon.

It's not North Korea I would worry about.

It's the fact that they are allied with China, of whom never does anything to curb their allied neighbor from messing with their financial interest.

That should speak louder than anything else.

Should make many feel as if there could be a much more serious issue behind all of this, that maybe NK isn't doing all this on their own and it's part of a much larger chess game that China plays very well.

One of the biggest mistakes I think many make, is just chalking kim jong un to being a crazy nutter. For all you know that's exactly what either he wants or even China wants.

Never underestimate an opponent even if they seem weak, could very well be the tactic.

a reply to: Rocker2013

Was Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombings for the protection of the American people?

They claimed it was, sought to end the war. And it did. But nuclear bombs were detonated over non-military targets, and it wasn't NK who did it.

I support freedom for NK and I wish these people one day will wake up and see the real world, and not living in that dreamworld made by their rulers. But i'm quite sure just like all other countries, they are developing these weapons for self-defense. Nobody is stupid enough to launch a nuclear weapon without a reason... Their threats are propaganda without a real intention of assault, but in case they get attacked by the US or SK.

But that's just like... my opinion.

a reply to: Shuye

The thing is, my friend, that North Korea has been biting for the past fifty years or so...

Commando raids on South Korea have inflicted numerous casualties and much damage over that half century. What's to stop them from smuggling in a small nuclear weapon, or a dirty bomb? Admittedly, the border/coastal protections in South Korea are, to coin a phrase, rather impressive, but they only need to succeed once to kill a lot of people as a prelude to a general attack, if that's their plan.

To say the South Koreans are concerned would be to understate the situation. They're scared [bleep]less. They know, to a T, what North Korea is capable of, no one better.

Japan, too, knows what North Korea is capable of...Kiddnappings of Japanese citizens...

Then, of course, there is this. Believe as much or as little as you please...

No, there is more than sufficient reason for concern.

originally posted by: WeRpeons
Any nuclear exchange would put both China, Japan, South Korea and Russia in a cloud of radiation fall out.

This is why China has already agreed to discussions with the US over the problem of NK.

I imagine that we'll see action taken by SK and the US, but I'm not sure whether China will be actively involved or just keep out of it while they defend their border.

Russia will stay out of it too, they'll just pretend nothing is happening, or perhaps just make some angry noises to remind the world they're still there.

No one is willing to defend NK now, they all know the dangers of doing nothing about this. Just a few years ago China would have defended it in theory if not in action, and that's one of the reasons the US wouldn't have been able to act. All that has changed though, China does not want a nuclear armed NK any more than the US does.

a reply to: Rocker2013

I really get what you mean, I really do. Until an hour ago I thought the same. But I started seeing a pattern here, a cycle, an endless loop that doesn't seem to really point the direction we all think it is pointing.

It looks more like a childish game of "stay away" rather than a serious threat.

Like, if it was Putin on the contrary making these threats I would be very much worried by now...