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Trump Switches Bait

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posted on Apr, 22 2016 @ 09:20 AM
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originally posted by: ipsedixit

originally posted by: UKTruth

I think that was metaphor.
I suspect that if he committed murder, he would indeed be condemned.


Not necessarily by his supporters. One would hope that he would be arrested but nobody in the cabinet of George W. Bush has been arrested. W. didn't walk out onto the street and shoot somebody but he ignored something like 29 congressional subpoenas and was not arrested.

This will be a little esoteric but years ago on the night that the Parti Québécois, a separatist party, was elected for the first time to power in that province of Canada, their leader, René Lévesque, killed a drunken reveler who was asleep in the street near his parked car, by running him over accidentally. Lévesque himself was drunk, but no arrest was made and the whole thing was hushed up.

Funny things and sometimes completely outrageous things are accepted and glossed over by people in irrationalist movements.


It's probably less of a metaphor if one said; Trump could save the life of every man woman and child in America and his haters would still hate him.


I think that is true as far as it goes but I don't hate Trump, personally. I just think he is a fascist demagogue and unfit to hold public office. It's just a cold political analysis, but I think that sort of thing is alien to Trump supporters. They are too fervent and emotional about this particular presidential race.


No, really, it was a metaphor and I have not met or spoken to a single one of his supporters that sees it literally. It's just a talking point for those that don't like Trump.

The emotional thing is interesting. I hold the view that the over riding emotional response is coming from the never trump faction of society. In your own response you call Trump a fascist demagogue. It's over the top. I see no fascism. If anything Trump is a centrist. I see no demagogue. For that to be true he would have to be appealing only to prejudice and not have a rational argument, which clearly is not the case.

My challenge to any anti Trump person is to ask them to list out the positives. Which of his policies make sense to you? What has he done that has been smart? What has been right about? What are his positive characteristics? It's a challenge that is rarely met.

On the other side, i see a lot of Trump supports cringe at some of the silly arguments.. e.g. the Little Marco, Lyin Ted stuff. I see a lot disagreeing with some of his positions. I see many that wish he'd quit Twitter. I am sure there are some that see no wrong in him at all and they are more than likely of a similar mindset to the haters - i.e. driven emotionally but on the opposite scale.
edit on 22/4/2016 by UKTruth because: (no reason given)




posted on Apr, 22 2016 @ 09:24 AM
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originally posted by: MotherMayEye
a reply to: ipsedixit

I think the larger point is that after nearly a year of constantly defending every polarizing and crass statement Trump has made, his supporters are DEEPLY invested in him.


This is quite true. The 9/11 saga was all about this. The Madeleine McCann saga is too. Was it Mark Twain who said, "It is easier to fool people than to get them to admit they have been fooled."



posted on Apr, 22 2016 @ 09:26 AM
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He will only be pretending to be presidential. A leopard cannot change its spots.
The real Donald will still be in there.



posted on Apr, 22 2016 @ 09:29 AM
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originally posted by: ipsedixit

originally posted by: MotherMayEye
a reply to: ipsedixit

I think the larger point is that after nearly a year of constantly defending every polarizing and crass statement Trump has made, his supporters are DEEPLY invested in him.


This is quite true. The 9/11 saga was all about this. The Madeleine McCann saga is too. Was it Mark Twain who said, "It is easier to fool people than to get them to admit they have been fooled."


Hmmm... this sounds a little like 'agree with my attack or you are wrong and are deeply invested'. That's a pretty weak and authoritarian argument.

To be honest that stage of the election is probably over now anyway. He has a base of support that looks to have defeated the anti trump movement within the Republican party The question now is whether Trump can appeal to enough new or undecided voters to win the general election. The tactical switch you raise in the OP is all about meeting that challenge.

I would be amazed if Trump were able to win a general election, but the switch is definitely a positive step.

edit on 22/4/2016 by UKTruth because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 22 2016 @ 09:35 AM
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a reply to: UKTruth

I've written several Trump threads analyzing his positions and I'm not going to rehash them. He is not well informed on economic issues generally and has told some lies. The US trade deficit with China is a concern, so one could say that Trump is right about that, but he goes way over the top in demonizing China for this. This has been well ventilated in reputable journals like Forbes magazine and the Wall Street Journal.

People who say he is not a fascist are either uninformed about fascism or unwilling to look carefully at his methods in order to see the parallels. A lot of material has been written about this and it is easy to find on line.

Trump has never held office and has never done anything as a public official that I am aware of. It's nice that he hosts dinners for vets at Mar a Lago.

I'm completely unaware of reservations about him, among Trump's supporters. I take your point that it is there but I haven't looked into it.



posted on Apr, 22 2016 @ 09:46 AM
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originally posted by: ipsedixit

originally posted by: MotherMayEye
a reply to: ipsedixit

I think the larger point is that after nearly a year of constantly defending every polarizing and crass statement Trump has made, his supporters are DEEPLY invested in him.


This is quite true. The 9/11 saga was all about this. The Madeleine McCann saga is too. Was it Mark Twain who said, "It is easier to fool people than to get them to admit they have been fooled."


To be fair, Obama supporters were the same way in 2008. He could do no wrong because his supporters were so deeply invested in him. They spent so much time pointing their fingers at everyone who criticized him -- calling them racist -- that Obama went and voted to expand FISA right in front of their faces, in June 2008, and they collectively refused to second guess him.



posted on Apr, 22 2016 @ 09:56 AM
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originally posted by: UKTruth

To be honest that stage of the election is probably over now anyway. He has a base of support that looks to have defeated the anti trump movement within the Republican party The question now is whether Trump can appeal to enough new or undecided voters to win the general election. The tactical switch you raise in the OP is all about meeting that challenge.

I would be amazed if Trump were able to win a general election, but the switch is definitely a positive step.


It will be interesting to see how the last stages of the primary season play out, but I agree with you that Trump has backed the Republican Party into a corner where he can't be fobbed off.

I think he could win the general election. He has people around him now that can tune him up for prime time, if he will take their advice. I don't see how, as President, he will be able to carry out the more flamboyant aims, like the Wall, for example.

Everything he says about the Middle East says war. He is much to be feared on that account, I believe, particularly if he goes after the Saudis.

His China pronouncements are all baloney or five years out of date. The EU just lost a series of challenges to Chinese trade practices at the World Trade Organization. Trump will do the same. He will not be able to do most of what he says he wants to do on the economy.

I think he's a crack pot. The only realistic way he will have of paying down the national debt will be to put America up for sale and first in line to buy will be the Chinese and his oligarchical friends. He will bring back all that offshore tax money and sequestered money held overseas by the corporate elite by offering the American patrimony for sale. Mark my words.



posted on Apr, 22 2016 @ 09:58 AM
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originally posted by: ipsedixit
a reply to: UKTruth

I've written several Trump threads analyzing his positions and I'm not going to rehash them. He is not well informed on economic issues generally and has told some lies. The US trade deficit with China is a concern, so one could say that Trump is right about that, but he goes way over the top in demonizing China for this. This has been well ventilated in reputable journals like Forbes magazine and the Wall Street Journal.

People who say he is not a fascist are either uninformed about fascism or unwilling to look carefully at his methods in order to see the parallels. A lot of material has been written about this and it is easy to find on line.

Trump has never held office and has never done anything as a public official that I am aware of. It's nice that he hosts dinners for vets at Mar a Lago.

I'm completely unaware of reservations about him, among Trump's supporters. I take your point that it is there but I haven't looked into it.


I have read most of your threads, if not all, and commented on some. Can you link one that is not politically biased and gathers both sides of the debate for a proper analysis? I can't find one. They are laced with opinion as opposed to analysis. Not saying you have not written one, but your history doesn't appear to show them.

The problem with the fascist parallels are that you can apply them to all candidates. In addition many of the parallels are based on unsound interpretations of Trump and his positions to begin with. Interpretations driven by emotional bias, not sound analysis.


The term Fascism was first used of the totalitarian right-wing nationalist regime of Mussolini in Italy (1922–43); the regimes of the Nazis in Germany and Franco in Spain were also Fascist. Fascism tends to include a belief in the supremacy of one national or ethnic group, a contempt for democracy, an insistence on obedience to a powerful leader, and a strong demagogic approach


What leads you to believe that Trump has a contempt for democracy? What about the supremacy of one nation or ethnic group... what's the evidence for that?

A strong demagogic approach?

A political leader who seeks support by appealing to popular desires and prejudices rather than by using rational argument:


Do you think Trump has no rational arguments. Is it only prejudice and desire that you think is driving his support? Given his support from all ethnicity groups, men, women, income levels, religions, educational levels I wonder which prejudices could be the core driver of his support. LBGT maybe? He seems to be fairly neutral on that.
edit on 22/4/2016 by UKTruth because: (no reason given)

edit on 22/4/2016 by UKTruth because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 22 2016 @ 10:02 AM
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a reply to: ipsedixit

1. He does not demonize China. He says the bad trade deals need to stop. He openly says that the US government has the worst people on these deals and it is not the fault of China if they take advantage but it must stop.

2. Facist - This one just gets me. How has he stated, in any way, he wants a Facist State in the US?

3. Never held public office? He has over 40 years of executive experience. He runs his day to day operations and now does it with his kids. He built a company then lost it and brought it back. It is a hard working person.

Say what you want but this is a deal to him. He will close it anyway he knows how. He has openly said that he is doing this for his children and grandkids who will inherit the issues but everyone wants to use some bs BLM bullet point and not look at the person.

He beat the RNC folks. He did it. We as a collective should be glad. He is not changing. He is showing a new side. He just beat 16 other people in a primary season that was more MMA.

Now, since he gave money to HIllary for the Clinton Foundation, and it is well known that he is pissed about how they handled that money, I wonder what he has to release leading up to the general election on her. It should be very interesting.



posted on Apr, 22 2016 @ 10:14 AM
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Discussion on the irrational hatred of Donald Trump




posted on Apr, 22 2016 @ 10:23 AM
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a reply to: UKTruth

The threads I wrote about Trump criticized his various statements. You can either agree with the criticisms or not. It is very cut and dried.

The most prominent stylistic ingredient of Trump's early campaign was the endless repetition of the lie that the United States gave Iran 150 billion dollars to get the nuclear deal and got nothing in return. That was a disgraceful lie and repeated often. Very analogous to the Hitler lie about the "stab in the back" being responsible for Germany's loss of WW1.

That's demagogy and it is similar to the sort of thing perfected by Hitler.

On trade, it's politicians and our negotiators who have stabbed the United States in the back by being incompetent.

Mexico sends its rapists (and "some good people too") to the United States to take all the low paying jobs, so we're going to remove 12 million or so Mexicans from America. You can make a lawyer's argument that this is not a racist political line, but I think the effect, whatever Trump really means, is racist, and he should not be articulating policy in this way.

It is not that Trump does not have legitimate complaints. It is that he is an incompetent clod who should not be given political power.


edit on 22-4-2016 by ipsedixit because: (no reason given)

edit on 22-4-2016 by ipsedixit because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 22 2016 @ 10:40 AM
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I don't hate Trump but his campaign has failed miserably.

He has given the democrats enough ammunition with his dumbass statements to destroy him in the coming election.

Of course he wants to appear more moderate now that the phony hardass blow back has started to make him look like a fool. His body language gives him away as a sissy.

Politics is a game of perception, not reality and if Trump didn't recognize this; it's his own fault.

His base is strong but it's not enough to win the election, because his new moderate approach won't be believed as anything more than pandering which is exactly what it is. To little, to late....

I would be willing to give Trump a try at leading, but if his campaign is any evidence at his leadership qualities...maybe not!

And his response to his foolishness is to blame others. This just doesn't inspire confidence in my book.
edit on 22-4-2016 by olaru12 because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 22 2016 @ 10:45 AM
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originally posted by: ipsedixit
a reply to: UKTruth

The threads I wrote about Trump criticized his various statements. You can either agree with the criticisms or not. It is very cut and dried.

The most prominent stylistic ingredient of Trump's early campaign was the endless repetition of the lie that the United States gave Iran 150 billion dollars to get the nuclear deal and got nothing in return. That was a disgraceful lie and repeated often. Very analogous to the Hitler lie about the "stab in the back" being responsible for Germany's loss of WW1.

That's demagogy and it is similar to the sort of thing perfected by Hitler.

On trade, it's politicians and our negotiators who have stabbed the United States in the back by being incompetent.

Mexico sends its rapists (and "some good people too") to the United States to take all the low paying jobs, so we're going to remove 12 million or so Mexicans from America. You can make a lawyer's argument that this is not a racist political line, but I think the effect, whatever Trump really means, is racist, and he should not be articulating policy in this way.

It is not that Trump does not have legitimate complaints. It is that he is an incompetent clod who should not be given political power.



Ok, so your articles were criticisms of statements Trump has made because you disagree with them. That is clear. I would not call that analysis though. They are opinion pieces - fair enough, nothing wrong with that.

In terms of the Iran deal:



Donald Trump said on NBC’s “Meet the Press” that a nuclear deal with Iran would send $150 billion to Iran, even if it’s not approved by Congress.

The Truth: This one is mostly true, but some of the details are a little fuzzy. Donald Trump said that the $150 billion would go to Iran even if Congress didn’t approve the nuclear deal during an August 16 appearance on NBC’s “Meet the Press”: “The problem is by the time I get in there, they will have already receive the $150 billion. Do you know if the deal gets rejected they still get the money? Which is something I found out a week ago. I couldn’t believe it. If the deal gets rejected, they still get all of this money. Iran is going to be unbelievably powerful and unbelievably rich.”

Under the nuclear deal, Iran would have access to billions of dollars in assets that were frozen in foreign accounts due to previous nuclear sanctions. But the exact amount of Iran’s windfall, and the idea that Iran would get the assets even if Congress doesn’t approve the deal, aren’t sure things.

Sanctions placed on Iran because of its nuclear program froze billions of dollars of Iran’s assets in foreign accounts. The nuclear deal would unfreeze those accounts, which the White House has estimated could send up to $150 billion to Iran.

But Obama administration officials said that Iran wouldn’t receive the full $150 billion in frozen assets because the country owes billions to China and other countries. After repaying those debts, Iran would receive about $56 billion.

Others have argued that Iran would leave the $150 billion in foreign accounts because repatriating it could hurt its economy, the Daily Beast reports: The money is unlikely to be repatriated back to Iran. Administration officials and critics alike predict that Iran will keep much of its assets overseas, since a sudden influx of funds into the country could drive up the cost of the Iranian currency, making it more expensive for foreign buyers to purchase Iranian goods and services. “It’s already in foreign accounts, so it’s not part of the normal budgeting process. It’s just ready cash… so you can start distributing it abroad very easily,” said Hudson Institute Senior Fellow Michael Doran. “It would be very easy for them not to repatriate it.”

Also, the idea that the nuclear deal would send $150 billion to Iran even if Congress doesn’t approve it isn’t necessarily a given. Other countries would have to lift sanctions on Iran even if the U.S. doesn’t for that to happen. So, some of the details are up in the air, but the claim that the nuclear deal could send up to $150 billion to Iran is mostly true.


It seems that the main point of argument, which you have characterized as a 'disgraceful lie' is that Trump made it sound like the US were cutting a check. Whether it is a check, or unfreezing bank accounts, the outcome is the same. Iraq get billions based on a deal cut with the US.

On illegal immigrants, I think Trump's language was extreme, but his policy is sound.
People are breaking the law by illegally entering the US and illegally living in the US. Securing the border and deportation are the only options under current law. Whilst Trump was not clear that the 'I assume some are good people too' should really be 'most are good people too', he is correct that the flood across the US/Mexican border does bring with it serious criminal and drug related problems. It's not a lawyers argument to say that. It's just a fact. I can't see how it makes him a racist.




It is not that Trump does not have legitimate complaints. It is that he is an incompetent clod who should not be given political power.

This is just an emotional statement. Calling him incompetent and a clod is just lashing out at him because you don't like him. Your right to do of course, but it's not an objective position that supports any claim you are making.



posted on Apr, 22 2016 @ 10:51 AM
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Perhaps with Trumps new attempt at looking more moderate, he should switch back to being a democrat!!

He would probably have a better chance at the WH as a democrat than a republican; except his hateful "metaphors" would haunt him as a demb as well.



edit on 22-4-2016 by olaru12 because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 22 2016 @ 10:55 AM
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a reply to: ipsedixit




I suspect that Donald Trump is very shady


Thats what my gut feelings tell me about him and from some of the stances he has taken on the issues.



posted on Apr, 22 2016 @ 11:00 AM
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originally posted by: olaru12
Perhaps with Trumps new attempt at looking more moderate, he should switch back to being a democrat!!

He would probably have a better chance at the WH as a democrat than a republican; except his hateful "metaphors" would haunt him as a demb as well.




Ha yes, you are not wrong. He could run in either party. I think he is a centrist.



posted on Apr, 22 2016 @ 11:06 AM
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originally posted by: UKTruth

originally posted by: olaru12
Perhaps with Trumps new attempt at looking more moderate, he should switch back to being a democrat!!

He would probably have a better chance at the WH as a democrat than a republican; except his hateful "metaphors" would haunt him as a demb as well.




Ha yes, you are not wrong. He could run in either party. I think he is a centrist.



Then what was the point of him pretending to appear as a tough guy hardass? His body language gave him away as a sissy from the very beginning. I can't believe anyone really takes him seriously. I could have given him much more respect with out the affected persona.

Nothing wrong with being a sissy of course.





edit on 22-4-2016 by olaru12 because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 22 2016 @ 11:25 AM
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He will probably keep changing, he is a geminy by sign, and geminis have a thousand faces and skins, still if he doesnt get to be president, he can still be a comedian.



posted on Apr, 22 2016 @ 12:00 PM
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originally posted by: olaru12

originally posted by: UKTruth

originally posted by: olaru12
Perhaps with Trumps new attempt at looking more moderate, he should switch back to being a democrat!!

He would probably have a better chance at the WH as a democrat than a republican; except his hateful "metaphors" would haunt him as a demb as well.




Ha yes, you are not wrong. He could run in either party. I think he is a centrist.



Then what was the point of him pretending to appear as a tough guy hardass? His body language gave him away as a sissy from the very beginning. I can't believe anyone really takes him seriously. I could have given him much more respect with out the affected persona.

Nothing wrong with being a sissy of course.






I am not sure being a tough guy has anything to do with left , right or centrist.
I think he running as a Republican simply because he has to align with one of the two parties otherwise he has no chance.



posted on Apr, 22 2016 @ 12:17 PM
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Not surprising at all. We'll see Hillary pivot back to the center after the primaries too. She's been trying to out liberal Bernie and isn't pulling it off because she can do math and knows his policies are untenable to the point of just being rhetoric.




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